Last Daze Posted July 25, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2017 15 minutes ago, BobRyan said: No text says the first beast comes up out of the abyss. The first beast torments the woman of Rev 12 for 1260 years -- the dark ages. You have to page over to chapter 17 to find it. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. Revelation 17:8a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted July 25, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2017 "No text says the first beast comes up out of the abyss" Revelation 9:11, 13:1-4, 17:8-18 Read your Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, BobRyan said: Here is the text -- it does not mention the false prophet. Rev 13 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his (first beast) presence. And he (second beast) makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he (second beast) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him (second beast) to perform in the presence of the beast (first beast), telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the (first beast) beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him (second beast) to give breath to the image of the beast (first beast), so that the image of the beast (first beast) would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast (first beast) to be killed. 16 And he (second beast) causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he (second beast) provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast (first beast) or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast (first beast) , for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Instead this referes to "antoher beast" (so then second beast) and also the "First beast" . I have added qualifiers in parenthesis to make clear the association as I understand it. Hi BobRyan. You said; Quote Here is the text -- it does not mention the false prophet. The first beast is that "kingdom" with the 10 horns. The beast's system is their system. Their laws, their rules, their agenda. The second beast is the "false prophet", their spokesman, their appointed leader, whom they have groomed...the man with all the miracles, speaking smooth words and captivating the world. He is a secular leader, and spiritual leader all rolled into one (2 horns like a lamb) The false prophet (2nd beast) is telling us to worship the first beast (kingdom of 10 kings). The FP, as their chosen spokesman is convincing and enforcing the world to OBEY the first beast's laws and new system. They are working together, as the dragon has given both power so that this can be accomplished. At the Coming, there are only two thrown into the lake of fire - The beast and the false prophet. We know the first beast is the kingdom of the 10 kings, (that kingdom) and the second beast, the man with the miracles (spiritual) who sits in the temple, and declares himself god (spiritual), taking control of the whole world (secular) and it's new global system (secular) can only be that last kingdom (10 kings), and the false prophet working with them. Some would like to even add a third person in there (the antichrist), but there is no third person, for the antichrist is the false prophet - same guy (spiritual and secular leader) Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. You also said to last Daze Quote No text says the first beast comes up out of the abyss. The first beast torments the woman of Rev 12 for 1260 years -- the dark ages. The first beast is an end time beast, did not exist back then. When Christ died and was risen, the dragon went after the "teachings" of the woman, and tried to eradicate it (the truth/Christ) through going after the apostles and disciples who were spreading Christ's name fast. He first used Paul to hunt down Christians, and they went after the Christians like a flood for 1260 days, not years (only 3 1/2 yrs). During this time, the gospels and the NT writings were written, preached, and preserved uncontaminated, so we can have today. Since then the dragon still sends a flood out after the "woman", still trying to pervert the truth and keep it hidden from us through subtle means, and through his frustration decides to finally kill all those on the earth who hold the doctrine of this woman by using his end time beast and the false prophet. Edited July 26, 2017 by Sister working with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 26, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2017 6 hours ago, BobRyan said: Here is the text -- it does not mention the false prophet. Rev 13 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his (first beast) presence. And he (second beast) makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he (second beast) deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him (second beast) to perform in the presence of the beast (first beast), telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the (first beast) beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him (second beast) to give breath to the image of the beast (first beast), so that the image of the beast (first beast) would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast (first beast) to be killed. 16 And he (second beast) causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he (second beast) provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast (first beast) or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast (first beast) , for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Instead this referes to "antoher beast" (so then second beast) and also the "First beast" . I have added qualifiers in parenthesis to make clear the association as I understand it. Apologies, I should have done a better job of clarifying. Here is a passage that describes the false prophet: And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Revelation 19:20a Compare that with the second beast that comes up out of the earth: And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. Revelation 13:14 The beast that comes up out of the earth, the second beast, is the false prophet. The false prophet is the only human in the evil trio. The first beast is an evil angel, as is Satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) On 7/25/2017 at 8:36 PM, Last Daze said: Apologies, I should have done a better job of clarifying. Here is a passage that describes the false prophet: And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Revelation 19:20a Compare that with the second beast that comes up out of the earth: And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. Revelation 13:14 The beast that comes up out of the earth, the second beast, is the false prophet. The false prophet is the only human in the evil trio. The first beast is an evil angel, as is Satan. Well it is true as you say that the second beast is called the false prophet in Rev 19, but just like in Rev 17 the whore of Babylon is an organization/nation/religion and not a single individual ... just as all the beasts in Rev 13 and Daniel 7 are also not individual people - but a system/nation/empire/religion so the beast-false-prophet of Rev 13 and 19 is not an individual. The first beast in Rev 13 is the dragon's agent in Rev 12 who tried to kill Christ at his birth. So yes Satan is ultimately behind it (and is the buck-stope-here ultimate source behind all evil no matter what form it takes) -- but it was pagan Rome that actually did the act of trying to kill the infant Christ. Edited July 27, 2017 by BobRyan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted July 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 8:19 PM, Sister said: Hi BobRyan. You said; The first beast is that "kingdom" with the 10 horns. The beast's system is their system. Their laws, their rules, their agenda. The second beast is the "false prophet", their spokesman, their appointed leader, whom they have groomed...the man with all the miracles, speaking smooth words and captivating the world. He is a secular leader, and spiritual leader all rolled into one (2 horns like a lamb) The false prophet (2nd beast) is telling us to worship the first beast (kingdom of 10 kings). The FP, as their chosen spokesman is convincing and enforcing the world to OBEY the first beast's laws and new system. They are working together, as the dragon has given both power so that this can be accomplished. At the Coming, there are only two thrown into the lake of fire - The beast and the false prophet. We know the first beast is the kingdom of the 10 kings, (that kingdom) and the second beast, the man with the miracles (spiritual) who sits in the temple, and declares himself god (spiritual), taking control of the whole world (secular) and it's new global system (secular) can only be that last kingdom (10 kings), and the false prophet working with them. Some would like to even add a third person in there (the antichrist), but there is no third person, for the antichrist is the false prophet - same guy (spiritual and secular leader) Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. You also said to last Daze The first beast is an end time beast, did not exist back then. When Christ died and was risen, the dragon went after the "teachings" of the woman, and tried to eradicate it (the truth/Christ) through going after the apostles and disciples who were spreading Christ's name fast. He first used Paul to hunt down Christians, and they went after the Christians like a flood for 1260 days, not years (only 3 1/2 yrs). During this time, the gospels and the NT writings were written, preached, and preserved uncontaminated, so we can have today. Since then the dragon still sends a flood out after the "woman", still trying to pervert the truth and keep it hidden from us through subtle means, and through his frustration decides to finally kill all those on the earth who hold the doctrine of this woman by using his end time beast and the false prophet. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year symbolism just as we see in Daniel 9 - 70 weeks = 490 apoc days = 490 literal solar years. This was proven to be true - as Christ came the first time just as the 490 timeline of Dan 9 predicted. The 1260 days of Daniel 7 and Rev 11, and Rev 12 and Rev 13 work the same way. 3.5 years = 42 months = 1260 apoc days = 1260 literal solar years And you are right about the 2nd beast and the false prophet of Rev 19 being the same entity. All beasts in Dan 7 and Rev 13 are nations/empires/religion/system-of-some-sort not an actual single person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 27, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2017 13 minutes ago, BobRyan said: The 1260 days of Daniel 7 and Rev 11, and Rev 12 and Rev 13 work the same way. 3.5 years = 42 months = 1260 apoc days = 1260 literal solar years Hi BobRyan Thank you. I just don't understand this. The 3.5 yrs = 42 months = 1260 days should just stop there. To convert again to literal solar years doesn't make sense? .....Because this end time kingdom when given full power starting whn their leader arises will only last for 3 1/2 yrs total. The shortest ruling kingdom in history. The saints can not be given into is hand until he comes. The 1260 literal solar years does not harmonise with this? Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them (little horn/FP); and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.(only 3.5 yrs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brakelite Posted July 30, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 977 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/15/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2017 On 27/07/2017 at 10:39 PM, Sister said: Hi BobRyan Thank you. I just don't understand this. The 3.5 yrs = 42 months = 1260 days should just stop there. To convert again to literal solar years doesn't make sense? .....Because this end time kingdom when given full power starting whn their leader arises will only last for 3 1/2 yrs total. The shortest ruling kingdom in history. The saints can not be given into is hand until he comes. The 1260 literal solar years does not harmonise with this? Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them (little horn/FP); and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.(only 3.5 yrs) Actually, it harmonizes perfectly. But you need to understand history as opposed to guessing about the future. What kingdom was it from which grew the ten horns? What were those ten kingdoms? What were the 3 that were destroyed? What kingdom was it that grew in the midst of the ten, and took an active role in uprooting those 3, and then held great religious influence over the remaining 7 off and on for the following 1260 years? Who was this little horn power that persecuted the saints mercilessly over that same period? Who was this power who lost her power precisely at the end of the 1260 period but regained it 130 odd years later and has been growing in power and influence ever since? Investigate these questions and you will discover more criteria regarding the little horn power that conclusively reveals it is already with us today and was recognized by Bible scholars as long as 800 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 31, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2017 (edited) On 7/30/2017 at 6:26 PM, brakelite said: Actually, it harmonizes perfectly. But you need to understand history as opposed to guessing about the future. What kingdom was it from which grew the ten horns? The kingdom which started from the feet, after Rome, which had fragments of Rome in it, so it's a "democratic" kingdom based on Roman law, inherited from the Greko-Roman era. The ten horns are the ten toes on the statue in Daniel. They do not appear until their kingdom is nearing the end. Before the toes they are not here yet. Quote What were those ten kingdoms? It doesn't say anything about 10 kingdoms, but 10 horns "acting" as kings. 10 men. 10 Leaders, controlling this kingdom. Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. Quote What were the 3 that were destroyed? The 3 kings don't get uprooted until the False Prophet comes up (little horn). This is yet to come. We don't know who they are yet but my guess is that they are the 3 major world leaders today who will have their power taken away and no more say or power on the world stage. They will no more call the shots, but be under command of the Beast. The three will still exist, but wont be the chiefs. Quote What kingdom was it that grew in the midst of the ten, and took an active role in uprooting those 3, and then held great religious influence over the remaining 7 off and on for the following 1260 years? It's the other way around. The 10 kings arise from the end time kingdom....at the latter end of their kingdom (3.5 yrs before their end) When the 10 kings of this kingdom are given full power , their man, the little horn (FP) will emerge. They will rule 3.5 yrs (one hour) with the beast (FP) Quote Who was this little horn power that persecuted the saints mercilessly over that same period? The 10 kings were not in existence in the past. They are to come and will persecute the saints of the last generation....near future. The little horn is the FP, the leader and spokesman of the 10 kings. He is their voice, and their miracle man used to deceive the nations. He is the Son of Perdition. Quote Who was this power who lost her power precisely at the end of the 1260 period but regained it 130 odd years later and has been growing in power and influence ever since? scripture? The only thing mentioned regarding the number "1260", is the two witnesses. They will prophecy for 1260 days. Just short of 3.5 yrs. As soon as the end time beast is given full power, they will appear on the scene. They are killed at the end of their prophesy, and a month or so later Armageddon will take place, which is why they are not here for the full 3.5yrs. The second woe is over, and the third to come (Armageddon/judgement) Quote Investigate these questions and you will discover more criteria regarding the little horn power that conclusively reveals it is already with us today and was recognized by Bible scholars as long as 800 years ago. Thank you Brakelite. I don't listen to bible scholars. Many are them are put here to deceive. We have eyes to read and a brain to learn and weigh things out. We should look for all the clues ourselves and go straight to the Word. It is only through the mercy of Christ, that he will give us understanding if we dont rely on men. He warns us not to make flesh our right arm, but his Word. His Word is perfect and true, and men have many faults. What those "scholars" are teaching does not line up with the scriptures for me. They have got it upside down, twisted and turned, some truth, but many errors. Edited July 31, 2017 by Sister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brakelite Posted July 31, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 977 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 641 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/15/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2017 All the reformers identified papal Rome as the little horn. It was papal Rome that grew from the pagan Rome 4th beast in Dan.7, amidst the 10 barbarian kingdoms who displaced the western empire by 476ad...it was papal Rome that uprooted the Ostrogothsb the Vadals, and the Heruli principally because of their Arian theology...it was papal Rome that gained her authority from the emperor Justinian to rule over all churches in 533ad...this was implemented in 538....1260 years later she lost that authority at the hands of the French revolutionary army (mortal head wound) 1798 but gained it again through a treaty with Mussolini in 1929 (head wound healed) and has been growing in power eversince. Other references to 1260 prophetic days are to the persecution of the saints over the same period, and the testimony of the witnesses that lay dormant for the same period...the old and new testaments of scripture. Itis no coincidence thst today the church has forgotten her roots. The counter-reformation attacked thecreformers, devised a new hermenuetic called futurism thus obscuring the true antichrist (herself) and put in its place an imaginary guture individual which the modern church has fallen for hook ine and sinker. The whole scheme was devised by a Jesuit priest, taken on board by people such as Darby and Schofield, and the rest as they say, is history....wile ignoring history as if God wasnt aware of 2000 years of vhurch apostasy...persecution...and Satanic war against His word. Discard the futurist paradigm and match the prophecies with history rsther than matching prophecy with animaginary future. Sorry bout all the typos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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