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Cremation - ok or not?


Sunshine 5

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I agree with you about the cost of burial.  Funeral Homes provide a needed service and everyone has used them for some family member.  When my dad passed away the funeral home was terrific about caring and preparing him for burial. They were extremely gracious to my mother, sister and I, paying close attention to every detail.  I know they have to treat everyone with respect but they get paid a lot of money to do this.  Even when the funeral home came to pick up my dad, the men were all wearing their 3 piece suits.  To some this shows their respect but it did not appeal to me.  Like you, I had rather the money that would be spent on my funeral be given to some type of charity.  

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I think if people understood what they do do embalm a body, they would not look too harsh at cremation.

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I have always viewed it this way.   Cremation does to a body what nature does over many years.  I see no real conflict between the two.  From dust we came and to dust we return.  Given that it is far cheaper to do the cremation route, it seems like being a wise steward of out money if some choose that route.  Other than that, the whole discussion seems like a waste of time.

Edited by OldCoot
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honestly.... i think funerals etc are a colossal waste of money. we spend thousands of dollars on people who wont feel or experience anything as their soul is gone. Id rather my body be stuffed in an old fridge or fed to sharks and let my living relatives  or someone who needs it benefit from the money that wouldve been used to do it

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OldCoot I am sorry to have wasted your time.  Even though you have this all figured out I place value on the comments that have been sent in and thank the ones posting for their insight.

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On 7/14/2017 at 9:30 AM, Sunshine 5 said:

OldCoot I am sorry to have wasted your time.  Even though you have this all figured out I place value on the comments that have been sent in and thank the ones posting for their insight.

By stating a waste of time, the meaning was in concert with the rest of the post.... one ends up the same way, either way.  The only difference is time and money.   I have a standing order that once I die, I go straight to cremation. Only if an autopsy is needed to interrupt that.  No fancy stuff.   Personally, the way I would prefer would be the best in terms of cost and simplicity, but is not allowed as a viable option thanks to government regulatory nonsense in favor of morticians.  I live rural.  Just call the neighbor and have him bring his backhoe over to the property.  Dig a hole on the back side of the property, wrap me in a blanket and roll me in.  Fill back in and all is done.  Cost?  $50 of backhoe time.    Irreverent? Not really.  I am not there anyway.  Just a body that I used to be in.

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7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

By stating a waste of time, the meaning was in concert with the rest of the post.... one ends up the same way, either way.  The only difference is time and money.   I have a standing order that once I die, I go straight to cremation. Only if an autopsy is needed to interrupt that.  No fancy stuff.   Personally, the way I would prefer would be the best in terms of cost and simplicity, but is not allowed as a viable option thanks to government regulatory nonsense in favor of morticians.  I live rural.  Just call the neighbor and have him bring his backhoe over to the property.  Dig a hole on the back side of the property, wrap me in a blanket and roll me in.  Fill back in and all is done.  Cost?  $50 of backhoe time.    Irreverent? Not really.  I am not there anyway.  Just a body that I used to be in.

Old coot if you die first I will try and bury you like this if I can.................if I go first try and return the favor.......or dump me with rocks in lake.

the money saved ..................give to the poor.

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Embalming and cremation have little to do with each other. One may be embalmed  ( For  reason) be placed in a casket have a funeral and still be cremated.

Embalming as it is known today  dates back only to the American Civil War. It was developed as a means to have the fallen  in conflict  restored to recognizable form  and returned to their own home community for burial.  It was a political necessity as well  as an emotional need of the grieving. The reason for embalming was three fold. One  it was for sanitation; Two it was so that the remains could be identified by the family and loved ones of the deceased; and three, it allowed for time to be able to transport the human remains. - Of course many  of the fallen were buried right at the battle fields where they died.

Why bother? Well lets jump forward in time to the Viet Nam conflict for one answer. Men died, they died young, it was very traumatic in many senses of the word. The families wanted to have their fallen sons and  fallen daughters back home to  see that it is really them, and to begin the grieving process. And it is a process as many  or most of us know. The warriors were identified, the families did see their human remains, and with that they not only could have their respective religious memorials but also their personal acknowledgement that they did lose a loved son or daughter or spouse.

We don't just leave our fallen. We gather them and we tend to their human remains as a rite and as a pledge. There just is need to do so for the benefit of the living. Embalming is part of that process that serves the need.

The grieving was especially hard, the rites of memorialization helped surviving family and friend to cope, and part of that was the process done by the military group known as Grave Registration, from the embalmers stationed at Guam to the survival assistance officers at various military bases in the USA  there was, and still is, a team that performs the rites of being as respectful and honoring to the suffering survivors by way of  respectful handling and memory of the dead.

As to the high cost of funerals today: Well that is a result of two things mostly. The first is government intrusion into business. The FTC got involved back in the late 1960's and early 70's. As a result we had to raise our prices astronomically. It was embarrasing to me and to most of us in the industry, but the cost of compliance  brought our overhead sky high.  

Then there was also the oddity of the 1970's, the groups that statrted buying up funeral homes, the little family run operations, plus also cemeteries for access to the large endowment care funds sitting  in accounts for future maintnace of the cemeteries. It quickly became an industry of it's own. And soon nearly every little guy was selling out to the corporation ( one of the two or three actually at the beginning, since then two merged) that were growing rapidly as  publically traded stock  corportions.

 These couple of corporations have bought the funeral supplies companies, the casket manufacturers, the cemeteries, the crematories. They are international in scope. There are very few independent facilities left. And so the system of funerals and the buying of merchandise changed completely-  where as we had 30 caskets on display for sale, starting at $150 plus the services  on a pick and choose basis as desired, the new system had displays of bits of caskets and four choices of funeral  "Packages". One so expensive  $32,000 it  was insane, but it set a value by which all the other incredibly expensive packages seemed a bargain. It is nutsy what  has happened. But it is the reality of today.

As to cremation, an independent firm might charge today as low as $800 for everything necessary, while the conglomerates charge $3500. So even with simple cremation the costs have a wide range!

When I entered the funeral service field , service was what we were about. We even had a complete funeral  for $120 and a complete burial  for $120 or  $240 total. About the most a person could possibly spend was $3500 for a funeral  and  about $2000 for a mausoleum crypt.

We worked long hours, we were basically always on duty call. Then wage laws changed and we got paid overtime after 40 hours a week , and then after 8 hours in a day, and we had vacations.

The FTC came along, plus the State did too, and  added several pages of disclosure to every part of a funeral service agreement.  The costs associated with compliance went nuts. Plus, we had to provide contract in the language of the presentation. So we ended up with English, Spanish,  Korean and Japanese language contracts.  All of which had to be approved by attorneys in case we were challenged or brought before the funeral board of the State. All of that became overwhelming to the small mom and pop size business, and the corporations pretty much took over as a large scale of economy was then necessary due to government intrusion into the industry.  The Corporations also saw the piles of reserve money at cemeteries, all in trust agreements for future maintenance needs, when a cemetery would no  longer have revenue coming in. These funds allowed for director fees, and use for special needs. And so huge cemeteries, well known ones got bought up; and the endowment care funds, well they had a lot of new director fees and special needs. The trusts basically got raided.

One of the bigger scandals of the industry was that one of the corporations pyramided their value, everyone started buying their stock including the Canadian Teachers Union. Then the pyramid collapsed and the teachers retirement fund with it.  

The second scandal happened when the other major group ran out of little firms to buy up. They had been buying using their own stock as payment for the small firms being bought. And the stock kept rising from a couple dollars a share to $41 a share. Well every little funeral director that sold and retained a management contract felt he was rich and was encouraging all his friends to sell their funeral homes too and become rich. There was a kicker, they were not allowed to sell their stock as long as they were under contract to continue running the business they had sold, usually a five year manager's contract, then they could sell a little at a time. Very suddenly with few new places to buy, the corporations had to perform  rather than grow, and it just wasn't there. The earnings collapsed. For they had raised prices so high that more than 50% of people were just having simple cremation instead of the normal 10%, and the potential customers were doing their own religious rites without funeral director assistance too. The stock prices absolutely crashed!

A lot of small time local funeral directors got caught holding those stocks. One friend had been paid in stock at near $30 a share saw it go to $41 thought what a great deal- but he couldn't sell under his contract, and the stocks fell to single digit numbers. He was pretty much wiped out. He had given his lifelong business away.

The funeral industry that  I started in at age 17  is not what the industry is today.  Today it is much driven by the stockholder's need for return on investment. Much like many other industries today.

All that said, there is value to the spirit and perhaps the soul to having a rite of acknowledgement that  a death has occurred that the person was loved, and that as Christians we do have hope that is certin. It blends our pain of separation with encouragement and a sense of some dignity too.

As Gladstone is often quoted as saying;

“Show me the manner in which a nation cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals.”

 - Sir William Ewart Gladstone

That may be accomplished with cremation and no  funeral director led services, just  as well as with one.  Memorialization may be done in many ways, not just with a marker at a grave at a cemetery.

What does not work out very well is trying to ignore or deny that the death of a loved one hurts. There is good reason and sound value for having a griving process that includes some formal acknowledgement, and yes ritual.

Edited by Neighbor
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2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Why bother? Well lets jump forward in time to the Viet Nam conflict for one answer. Men died, they died young, it was very traumatic in many senses of the word. The families wanted to have their fallen sons and  fallen daughters back home to  see that it is really them, and to begin the grieving process. And it is a process as many  or most of us know. The warriors were identified, the families did see their human remains, and with that they not only could have their respective religious memorials but also their personal acknowledgement that they did lose a loved son or daughter or spouse.

You are kidding, right?  Very few metal coffins of fallen soldiers, did the families actually view the body, or rather, pieces of the body left after being hit by an RPG or burned beyond recognition in a personnel carrier that struck a mine.  Those corpses could have easily been cremated and placed in a coffin and returned.  It was bad enough to have to pick up the pieces of these individuals where they died, it is irrational to assert that several weeks later, the family is viewing those actual remains.   It was the flag draped coffin that the family saw and that offered solace to the family, not the actual body.  In some cases, all that was in that coffin was a foot, an arm, or the head.   All that was left of the individual after being killed on the battlefield and placed in a bag.   Embalming was rarely done.  The bag and tag were placed in the metal coffin and sealed.  Viet Nam was my time in uniform.  

Yes, there were military facilities in Quam and Hawaii that did embalming, even some facilities in country.  But most coffins went from VN straight to the continental U.S.  Very few in Graves Registration did anything related to embalming.  Mostly just confirmation of the identity of the individual and processing of paperwork and coffin for transport.  

I will concede that the funeral home industry has gotten local and state governments in their pocket and make it so the regulatory climate is such that funeral services have become cash cow for many.  And it has restricted the people's ability to deal with their dead in a way that is simple and cost effective.  There are many who live in rural areas, that burying their dead family members on family property would be viable.  We did it that way for much of the history of the nation.  But that is not a option due to statutes in many areas.  And all the requirements imposed on people for burying their dead where it is allowed.  Vaults must be used for instance, inflating the cost of a funeral.  By the time it is all done, it is not uncommon for a typical funeral cost to rival the purchase of a compact car.   Especially so if the body is transported across state lines.  At least the wife and I already have purchased plots in a small, rural cemetery at a very low cost and we have standing directives that cremation be done almost immediately.  No embalming, no family viewing, etc.  Just straight to the barbecue pit, or as soon as possible after an autopsy if that is required by government.  

Edited by OldCoot
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For some reason, I've never been comfortable with the idea of cremation......nor autopsy for that matter......told my family when I go to please bury me in a simple wooden box, if possible, no embalming necessary, and no autopsy (unless it has to be done by law).  The living sometimes want to visit a graveside to honour the memory of a person and if it helps their grief etc, that's fine with me.  As far as the bible goes, since pagans burned their dead......and God's people did not because of looking forward to a resurrection, then that's good enough reason for me to forego cremation too.  It might not matter.....as others are saying things happen to bodies due to war or accidents.....but then again when we have a choice, if there's any doubt about it at all I would rather err on the side of caution so to speak.

 

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