2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[Last Daze]

On 9/2/2017 at 4:19 AM, Diaste said:

For many years I heard the above passage referred to the Holy Spirit or Micheal the Archangel, depending on the author. I believe I have heard it's a reference to the Church as well. Obviously the idea is that either the HS, Micheal, or the Church, is removed from the scene and then the beast is revealed to do his evil work.

Recently, maybe not so recently, a Pastor has said this actually means the revealing of the beast is withholding the return of Jesus. As in, Jesus will only return after the two events of 2 Thess 2:3. The idea just came to my attention and I would like to say it has merit.

A short investigation certainly seems to confirm the accuracy of this idea.

Verse 8 indicates that the revealing of the man of sin happens after the restraint is removed.

My thoughts on the restrainer are two fold:

1. The abyss - this is a prison, or place of restraint, for evil spirit beings.
2. Michael - the archangel who stands guard over Israel

Much end time activity is predicated on the release of the beast from the abyss.  It is he who receives Satan's power, throne, and great authority and it is in the presence of this beast that the man of sin performs great signs and wonders whereby he deceives the world.  So, until this evil angel is released from the restraint of the abyss, the man of sin can not be revealed.

Michael acting as a restrainer I see as specific to Israel.  Until he stands fast, the forces of evil could not successfully attack Israel.

[Guest]

On 9/2/2017 at 0:57 PM, Amazing Horse said:

Also if church was in tribulation then you could lose your salvation by taking mark of beast which is contradicting at least 20+ scriptures of eternal security .

If the church is in the tribulation, then it would rather die than take the mark and lose salvation.  That's why God offers such an honoring reward for those who refuse the mark and keep their testimony of Christ.  (See Revelation 20).   If you willingly take the mark then you gotta wonder if your faith was even real, and if you really ever believed what you're preaching about.  The contradiction isn't in Scripture, it's in whether or not someone is willing to die to themselves AND for Christ.  

[Amazing Horse]

32 minutes ago, GusWilby said:

If the church is in the tribulation, then it would rather die than take the mark and lose salvation.  That's why God offers such an honoring reward for those who refuse the mark and keep their testimony of Christ.  (See Revelation 20).   If you willingly take the mark then you gotta wonder if your faith was even real, and if you really ever believed what you're preaching about.  The contradiction isn't in Scripture, it's in whether or not someone is willing to die to themselves AND for Christ.  

If at least one person while being for example under drugs during tribulation but being saved and born again Christian , took mark of beast then we could say that God is lair because he just lost his salvation , since God can't lie  christians can't lose thier salvation they are simply not in tribulation .

Since you don't even believe in eternal security i think that you might be not saved .

Read  Ephesians 1:13-14 , Ephesians 2:8-9 , 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 , John 6:36-39

Just John 6:40 on it's own says that you have eternal life when you believe , not that you will have but you alredy got if you are saved .

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Also most important, the gospel preached in tribulation is different that today's gospel of salvation , that gospel in revelation is preached by angel Revelation 14:6 . If that gospel was for us today then chief apostole Paul just cursed  that angel from God and his everlasting gospel in Galatians 1:8-9

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

So if you preach another gospel that we can lose our salvation you are cursed just like that angel by Paul .

Edited September 7, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Amazing Horse said:

Since you don't even believe in eternal security i think that you might be not saved

Wow!  You're telling me what I don't believe... And on top of that, judging MY salvation!  Interestingly, the only people in my 30 years as a Christian who think they know my doctrine better than I know myself, (as you presume to), are atheists and Jehovah's Witnesses.  The horrible accusations you made toward me are ruthless, without merit, and angry.  You need to learn what type of fruit you're showing before you start going all dogma on someone you've never met!  Don't ever make the mistake of judging my salvation!

Your argument for the church not being in the tribulation is, at best, wishful thinking.  The entire doctrine of pretrib rapture is based on poor interpretation of incorrectly translated and out-of-context verses... With a heapin' helpin' of speculation to top it off.  You are trying to rationalize what you believe- I, on the other hand, belief what the Scripture says without someone manipulating word meanings and ignoring the context of the passages.

There is no single verse you can offer to prove pretrib rapture... If fact, I know ALL the pretrib verses and I can fully explain where you are totally in error in each and every one of them.  On top of that, I can clearly show you at least 4 verses that actually tell us we will be in the tribulation that are actually mistranslated pretrib "proof" verses.

Is this supposed to be Christ-like dialogue or is everyone who writes subject to your belittling and judgement?    A true Christian would never question another's salvation merely because every point of doctrine doesn't match perfectly to yours.... OK, a true Christian might inadvertently say those things, but would realize it was unkind and would humbly ask forgiveness of the offended total stranger...

Shalom brother

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Guest
Spelling error

[ENOCH2010]

Great post Gus, every word the truth.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Amazing Horse said:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

So if you preach another gospel that we can lose our salvation you are cursed

Just got one more little thing to point out in your attack on me...

You accuse me of preaching another gospel..... Tell me, when did I preach ANY gospel message.  You mistake doctrine for the gospel, obviously.  That in itself shows that you don't even know what the gospel is... Paul explains it in detail, and I was not addressing anything related to the gospel that Paul was talking about.  But if you think eschatological dialog is the "gospel," then you, brother, have preached a gospel other than what Paul clearly outlined in Scripture.  

But seriously, what you really meant was that if I don't agree with your point of view, you think people shouldn't listen to me, and you associate me with false doctrine and then question my salvation.  You speculated on what you think I believe and you proclaimed that lie to others... Therefore you bore false witness against me.  Where does that put you in God's eyes?

I want to let you know that every step you took to discredit me, falsely accuse me of thoughts you knew nothing of, and then call my salvation into question......  What you have done to me is exactly what Satan does to believers to weaken them.   What you don't know about me is that God has given me the gift of discerning spirits, (which you'll certainly attack and try to invalidate, as Satan would), and I am all to familiar with that type of spiritual warfare, and you can throw Scripture at me all day long like it's your personal weapon, like the devil did to Jesus, and I will always be protected by the Holy Spirit.  I don't believe I can lose my salvation and I certainly know that you can't take it from me with your misguided manipulation of MY God's Word!

.....but I'll forgive if you just ask......and we can continue on as brothers-in-Christ a d love one another as Jesus would have us do.

Shalom

[Guest]

Hey Enoch2010,

'Preciate you brother.  My follow up may not have been so kind to Amazing Horse....   

Shalom

Edited September 8, 2017 by Guest
Too wordy

[Guest]

On 9/3/2017 at 8:00 AM, Diaste said:

. I want to discuss 2 Thess 2:6-7 as from study it looks as though it didn't translate too well.

Hi Diaste,

It looks like I unintentionally got your post off track with some heated conflict with another individual.  I want to apologize and ask your forgiveness.  I recognize you have valid inquiries and it was in error that I did not respect that.

So regarding your initial thoughts on 2 Thess. 2: 6-7...

I too have found that the variety of translations and interpretations, this has been quite a controversial passage of Scripture.  If taken as a literal word for word translation (and then put into English), it says something to the effect of, (if I may paraphrase merely for clarity): "you know what withholds, he (most likely referring to Messiah), will be revealed in his time; the mystery of wickedness has been and will be working, but he who let's it happen (God) will let it happen, until he (man of lawlessness) is taken out of the way."

Simply put, evil is here, it will continue, God is waiting for the right time for the Messiah to be revealed.. The 'man of lawnessness' will be identified when he proclaims himself to be God, and then the Messiah will return and take him out of the way, putting an end to many centuries of Satan's control.  

That being said, there is a great deal of controversy over this verse, although I find it much easier to understand when I remove everyone's differing viewpoints.

Shalom

Edited September 8, 2017 by Guest
Spelling

[Amazing Horse]

9 hours ago, GusWilby said:

Just got one more little thing to point out in your attack on me...

You accuse me of preaching another gospel..... Tell me, when did I preach ANY gospel message.  You mistake doctrine for the gospel, obviously.  That in itself shows that you don't even know what the gospel is... Paul explains it in detail, and I was not addressing anything related to the gospel that Paul was talking about.  But if you think eschatological dialog is the "gospel," then you, brother, have preached a gospel other than what Paul clearly outlined in Scripture.  

But seriously, what you really meant was that if I don't agree with your point of view, you think people shouldn't listen to me, and you associate me with false doctrine and then question my salvation.  You speculated on what you think I believe and you proclaimed that lie to others... Therefore you bore false witness against me.  Where does that put you in God's eyes?

I want to let you know that every step you took to discredit me, falsely accuse me of thoughts you knew nothing of, and then call my salvation into question......  What you have done to me is exactly what Satan does to believers to weaken them.   What you don't know about me is that God has given me the gift of discerning spirits, (which you'll certainly attack and try to invalidate, as Satan would), and I am all to familiar with that type of spiritual warfare, and you can throw Scripture at me all day long like it's your personal weapon, like the devil did to Jesus, and I will always be protected by the Holy Spirit.  I don't believe I can lose my salvation and I certainly know that you can't take it from me with your misguided manipulation of MY God's Word!

.....but I'll forgive if you just ask......and we can continue on as brothers-in-Christ a d love one another as Jesus would have us do.

Shalom

If you preach that you can lose salvation you preach another gospel simple as that

And it's not that you agree with me or not agree with me , our priority and authority is Word of God , if you want to disagree with word of God then go on . I simply give you what word of God says , and exort you as seen in 2 Timothy 4:2 so you can stop preaching doctrines of man and devils .

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 10:28 include you not being able to pluck yourself out from God hand by taking mark of beast aswell .

Edited September 8, 2017 by Amazing Horse

[ghtan]

8 hours ago, GusWilby said:

So regarding your initial thoughts on 2 Thess. 2: 6-7...

I too have found that the variety of translations and interpretations, this has been quite a controversial passage of Scripture.  If taken as a literal word for word translation (and then put into English), it says something to the effect of, (if I may paraphrase merely for clarity): "you know what withholds, he (most likely referring to Messiah), will be revealed in his time; the mystery of wickedness has been and will be working, but he who let's it happen (God) will let it happen, until he (man of lawlessness) is taken out of the way."

A character is said to be revealed in each of verse 3, 6 and 8. In v 3 and v 8, it is clearly the man of lawlessness. For consistency, v 6 should also refer to this person. The current translations are therefore right. The one withholding him from being revealed must logically be opposed to him. Hence the common view that it is the Holy Spirit, which I think is correct.