Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Steve_S said:

You are making an assumption and you are certainly free to do that, but that does not answer the questions above. Why do you make the assumption that Jesus was only speaking to the audience that He was sitting in front of at that very moment? Also, why do you make the assumption that the audience, being His own disciples, had no idea that Christians are elect? Can you point to where the bible specifies this please?

Steve,

There was no Body of Christ at that time, only Israel & the Gentiles. It is not an assumption to read who Jesus was talking to at that specific time. That is logical reading. Now of course we have God`s word now and we can read what He said to Israel. To assume it is for us is not based on anything in God`s word.

BTW the 12 disciples did not know there was such a group as the Body of Christ until the Lord revealed that to the Apostle Paul. And even then they had trouble understanding this new group. Remember Peter was hypocritical concerning being with Gentiles, or even going to them.

regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Steve,

There was no Body of Christ at that time, only Israel & the Gentiles. It is not an assumption to read who Jesus was talking to at that specific time. That is logical reading. Now of course we have God`s word now and we can read what He said to Israel. To assume it is for us is not based on anything in God`s word.

BTW the 12 disciples did not know there was such a group as the Body of Christ until the Lord revealed that to the Apostle Paul. And even then they had trouble understanding this new group. Remember Peter was hypocritical concerning being with Gentiles, or even going to them.

regards, Marilyn.

That still does not address the original question, which was:

So it is your claim that the elect spoken of below are not Spirit filled believers, but the nation of Israel? It can't be both.

Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Who do you think the elect being spoken of is there? If it is not specifically the nation of Israel, then it would be obvious that a broader audience was in mind. However, much more telling.

Also, whether or not the disciples knew with specificity at the time about the future makeup of the body of Christ, they were themselves at the time followers of Christ.

Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The disciples are there and speaking to Jesus in private. The first few subsequent verses:

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

There is no doubting that He is speaking to a saved group of individuals who have put their faith in Him (less Judas). Now, why would he tell a saved group of individuals to look for the abomination of desolation, whether they be Jewish or gentile Christians? He was not speaking to nonbelievers, regardless of whether or not they were Jews or Gentiles, they were His followers. Why would He tell them to look for something that they would not presumably be present for?

[Marilyn C]

10 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

That still does not address the original question, which was:

So it is your claim that the elect spoken of below are not Spirit filled believers, but the nation of Israel? It can't be both.

 

There is no doubting that He is speaking to a saved group of individuals who have put their faith in Him (less Judas). Now, why would he tell a saved group of individuals to look for the abomination of desolation, whether they be Jewish or gentile Christians? He was not speaking to nonbelievers, regardless of whether or not they were Jews or Gentiles, they were His followers. Why would He tell them to look for something that they would not presumably be present for?

Hi Steve,

The Lord was replying to a question by the disciples. The Lord spoke concerning their nation`s future. And God`s word tells us who of Israel comes through the trib.

`And it shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two-thirds in it shall be cut off and ide, but one-third shall be left in it; I will bring the one-third through the fire, will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as silver is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them, I will say, "This is my people," and each one will say, "The Lord is my God." (Zech. 13: 8 & 9)

`The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not be greater than of Judah.` (Zech. 12: 7)

The Lord was not telling the disciples that they would be present, just what would happen to their nations at the end of the age, as they had asked that question.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering out of all the nations, on horses and in chariots and on litters, on mules and on camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord.` (Isa. 66: 20)

How did people all over the world know to bring the Jews to Jerusalem? Of course the angels were sent and told the people!

regards, Marilyn. 

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

The Lord was replying to a question by the disciples. The Lord spoke concerning their nation`s future. And God`s word tells us who of Israel comes through the trib.

`And it shall come to pass in all the land, says the Lord, that two-thirds in it shall be cut off and ide, but one-third shall be left in it; I will bring the one-third through the fire, will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as silver is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them, I will say, "This is my people," and each one will say, "The Lord is my God." (Zech. 13: 8 & 9)

`The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not be greater than of Judah.` (Zech. 12: 7)

The Lord was not telling the disciples that they would be present, just what would happen to their nations at the end of the age, as they had asked that question.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering out of all the nations, n horses and in chariots and on litters, on mules and on camels, to my holt mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord.` (Isa. 66: 20)

How did people all over the world know to bring the Jews to Jerusalem? Of course the angels were sent and told the people!

regards, Marilyn. 

I must disagree. You yourself just made a several post argument that the audience is key to contextual interpretation. The audience here was a group of His disciples and Jesus says "you" several times when describing the events. If He was speaking to a group of believers, why would He speak in this manner. You yourself above said:

Quote

Mmmm but who was the Lord talking to? You and me or Israel?

The answer to that question is that He was talking directly to the disciples (though I personally believe it is a broader context, even using your exegetical interpretation, He was not speaking broadly to the national of Israel):

Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

There is no context in evidence at any point that could be taken to mean that He was *only* speaking here to the non-Christian jews, which is what would be required in order to wedge this into a pretribulational theology.

 

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Steve_S said:

I must disagree. You yourself just made a several post argument that the audience is key to contextual interpretation. The audience here was a group of His disciples and Jesus says "you" several times when describing the events. If He was speaking to a group of believers, why would He speak in this manner. You yourself above said:

The answer to that question is that He was talking directly to the disciples (though I personally believe it is a broader context, even using your exegetical interpretation, He was not speaking broadly to the national of Israel):

Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

There is no context in evidence at any point that could be taken to mean that He was *only* speaking here to the non-Christian jews, which is what would be required in order to wedge this into a pretribulational theology.

 

Hi Steve,

Jesus was talking to the 12 disciples, (as we both know) who have a special calling, to be rulers over the 12 tribes of Israel -

`So Jesus said to them, (the 12 disciples) "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28) 

` Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)

Note the Body of Christ, is not the only group that God has purposes for. There is also Israel, and the nations too.

`Concerning the gospel they (Israel) are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.` (Rom. 11: 28)

There are believers in each group.

regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

Jesus was talking to the 12 disciples, (as we both know) who have a special calling, to be rulers over the 12 tribes of Israel -

`So Jesus said to them, (the 12 disciples) "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.` (Matt. 19: 28) 

` Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.` (Rev. 21: 14)

Note the Body of Christ, is not the only group that God has purposes for. There is also Israel, and the nations too.

`Concerning the gospel they (Israel) are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.` (Rom. 11: 28)

There are believers in each group.

regards, Marilyn.

This is a very roundabout way of reasoning out who Christ was talking to. It's certainly a person's prerogative to judge those verses to mean those things, but there is no direct contextual reason to do so, other than to try to fit a preconceived theory.

[Marilyn C]

1 minute ago, Steve_S said:

This is a very roundabout way of reasoning out who Christ was talking to. It's certainly a person's prerogative to judge those verses to mean those things, but there is no direct contextual reason to do so, other than to try to fit a preconceived theory.

Steve,

Jesus was talking to the 12 disciples who are of Israel. He has told them previously that they would be rulers over the 12 tribes. They ask about when He would come again. Jesus gives them details of world troubles then specifically concerning Israel, the abomination of desolation in the most holy place, and how that time, (not such before or after) will be shortened for the elect`s sake. They know that God has called them His elect.

So what are they to think?

regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Steve,

Jesus was talking to the 12 disciples who are of Israel. He has told them previously that they would be rulers over the 12 tribes. They ask about when He would come again. Jesus gives them details of world troubles then specifically concerning Israel, the abomination of desolation in the most holy place, and how that time, (not such before or after) will be shortened for the elect`s sake. They know that God has called them His elect.

So what are they to think?

regards, Marilyn.

That is simple assumption.

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Steve_S said:

That is simple assumption.

Please, Steve, can you show me which part is an assumption?

[Steve_S]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Please, Steve, can you show me which part is an assumption?

The assumption that they had no idea who the "elect" are. You are drawing a line between two things with no direct evidence other than an assumption that you are making. You assume they had no idea about it, it is logical to you, but it is still an assumption. There are things in the bible that are incredibly direct and things that are indirect. Then, there are things that have no proof one way or the other. This is one of those things. That particular assumption discounts all sorts of possibilities, none of which are specifically addressed in the scripture.