Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Steve_S said:

The assumption that they had no idea who the "elect" are.

Now Steve, the 12 disciples knew very well who `the elect` was. They heard it when they went to the synagogue and enacted it out referring to others as `dogs` etc. That is why Peter withdrew himself from the Gentiles. The Jews knew they were the elect.

`For Jacob my servant`s sake, and ISRAEL MY ELECT. I have called you by your name;....` (Isa. 45: 4)

`I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah an heir of my mountains: MY ELECT shall inherit it,......` (Isa. 65: 9)

`For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, and her people a joy,.......They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of my people, and MY ELECT  shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain nor bring for the children for trouble; for they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord. And their offspring with them.

it shall come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear, the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, they shall not hurt nor destroy in ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, says the Lord. ` (Isa. 65: 18 - 25)

Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now Steve, the 12 disciples knew very well who `the elect` was. They heard it when they went to the synagogue and enacted it out referring to others as `dogs` etc. That is why Peter withdrew himself from the Gentiles. The Jews knew they were the elect.

That is proof of nothing, though. It is, again, an assumption that they had no understanding, it also assumes that their understanding is entirely necessary. Again, I must return to what Christ says to the disciples, who are His followers.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Again, "you" here, using your own exegetical approach, can only mean the disciples, because He is speaking of the disciples. Changing exegetical approaches verse to verse is imperative to make Matthew 24 fit with pretribulational theology.

In an earlier post you said:

Quote

There was no Body of Christ at that time, only Israel & the Gentiles. It is not an assumption to read who Jesus was talking to at that specific time. That is logical reading

So in this chapter he was talking directly to the disciples, not the nation of Israel. They are Christians, he told them to look for the Abomination. It would have to be possible for them to be present for them to need to look for it, using this exegetical approach. That is cut and dried.

Below, you claim He was talking to the "people of Israel":

Quote

The point is that Jesus was talking to the people of Israel and Jesus knew and they knew, Israel was called the elect of God.

However, He was not talking to the people of Israel as a whole, He was talking to the disciples, privately. As you say, the audience matters.

The information given here was to His disciples, who later told the church. Also, His words were recorded, which He certainly knew was going to happen. There is no mention at all of Christ speaking directly and only to the "people of Israel" in this chapter.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Steve_S said:

That is proof of nothing, though. It is, again, an assumption that they had no understanding, it also assumes that their understanding is entirely necessary. Again, I must return to what Christ says to the disciples, who are His followers.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Again, "you" here, using your own exegetical approach, can only mean the disciples, because He is speaking of the disciples. Changing exegetical approaches verse to verse is imperative to make Matthew 24 fit with pretribulational theology.

In an earlier post you said:

So in this chapter he was talking directly to the disciples, not the nation of Israel. They are Christians, he told them to look for the Abomination. It would have to be possible for them to be present for them to need to look for it, using this exegetical approach. That is cut and dried.

Below, you claim He was talking to the "people of Israel":

However, He was not talking to the people of Israel as a whole, He was talking to the disciples, privately. As you say, the audience matters.

The information given here was to His disciples, who later told the church. Also, His words were recorded, which He certainly knew was going to happen. There is no mention at all of Christ speaking directly and only to the "people of Israel" in this chapter.

Ok Steve,

I hear what you are saying. So first let`s see what we can agree on.

Jesus is talking to the 12 disciples who are a part of the nation of Israel.

And yes when the text says - whoever reads, let him understand, - is written to us who read. This only means that we can have understanding of the times & what will happen to Israel.

As to the Lord`s use of the word `you` it is in the general sense - eg. `Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name`s sake.` (Matt. 24: 9) The Lord is speaking of the people of the nation of Israel. If it was the reader who is the `you` then how can they see the A/D if they have been killed? There is a general sense of `you,` and an individual sense of the word `you.` The context tells us it is the general sense.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Steve_S]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

As to the Lord`s use of the word `you` it is in the general sense - eg. `Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name`s sake.` (Matt. 24: 9) The Lord is speaking of the people of the nation of Israel. If it was the reader who is the `you` then how can they see the A/D if they have been killed? There is a general sense of `you,` and an individual sense of the word `you.` The context tells us it is the general sense.

The bolded underline part, you claim that, but there is no specificity there. You first said that we have to look at the audience. The audience is the disciples, that is who Christ is directly speaking to when He is giving the discourse. Now, if you want to open up possibilities outside of that, we can, but that would have to include all possibilities, not just the one that fits pretrib theology.

The general sense of you would have to be talking to the reader and the specific sense would have to be the disciples. The nation of Israel is not being spoken to directly in any context in the chapter.

[Marilyn C]

1 minute ago, Steve_S said:

The bolded underline part, you claim that, but there is no specificity there. You first said that we have to look at the audience. The audience is the disciples, that is who Christ is directly speaking to when He is giving the discourse. Now, if you want to open up possibilities outside of that, we can, but that would have to include all possibilities, not just the one that fits pretrib theology.

The general sense of you would have to be talking to the reader and the specific sense would have to be the disciples. The nation of Israel is not being spoken to directly in any context in the chapter.

Steve,

Yes I believe as you do that the Lord is talking to the 12 disciples. Then to me they are of the nation of Israel and that is who Jesus is talking about as per His coming again to them.

So it seems to me that you think that because it says - whoever reads, let him understand, - then that means it all involves us. I disagree with that as it says - `let him understand.` Understanding about the A/D, and thinking it is about me, are two different things.

regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Steve,

Yes I believe as you do that the Lord is talking to the 12 disciples. Then to me they are of the nation of Israel and that is who Jesus is talking about as per His coming again to them.

So it seems to me that you think that because it says - whoever reads, let him understand, - then that means it all involves us. I disagree with that as it says - `let him understand.` Understanding about the A/D, and thinking it is about me, are two different things.

regards, Marilyn.

No, that is not my claim. My belief is that in the broader context matthew 24 is speaking to, at the very least, the 12 disciples, but probably all Christians to one degree or another. Firstly:

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

That would be directed at no one but believers, because, as we know, the nation of Israel is largely blind to Christ being Messiah as of now and has been for 2000 years (save a remnant, of which i know a few). In other words, the non-Christians jews of that time, from now, and from the future are already deceived. That warning is to people who are already followers of Christ. So the initial statement in the discourage is warning believers to watch for false Christs.

Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Again, this is something that happens to Christians, as Christians are the only ones who claim Jesus' name.

One of the biggest problems I have with the pretrib interpretation of Matthew 24 is that it atypical. There is no localized context that, at all, mentions the nation of israel and only the nation of Israel as being the audience. An extrapolation of some sort is required to get there, because otherwise it creates great difficulty for that particular theology. The only extrapolation that can be asserted is that the audience cannot include Christians, because that would prove Christians should be on watch for the abomination, which happens i the 70th week, which negates the possibility of a pretrib rapture. Please don't misunderstand, I have nothing against people who hold the view and I understand why they hold it, but when you start looking for it in scripture, it's just not there.

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Steve_S said:

No, that is not my claim. My belief is that in the broader context matthew 24 is speaking to, at the very least, the 12 disciples, but probably all Christians to one degree or another. Firstly:

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

That would be directed at no one but believers, because, as we know, the nation of Israel is largely blind to Christ being Messiah as of now and has been for 2000 years (save a remnant, of which i know a few). In other words, the non-Christians jews of that time, from now, and from the future are already deceived. That warning is to people who are already followers of Christ. So the initial statement in the discourage is warning believers to watch for false Christs.

Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Again, this is something that happens to Christians, as Christians are the only ones who claim Jesus' name.

One of the biggest problems I have with the pretrib interpretation of Matthew 24 is that it atypical. There is no localized context that, at all, mentions the nation of israel and only the nation of Israel as being the audience. An extrapolation of some sort is required to get there, because otherwise it creates great difficulty for that particular theology. The only extrapolation that can be asserted is that the audience cannot include Christians, because that would prove Christians should be on watch for the abomination, which happens i the 70th week, which negates the possibility of a pretrib rapture. Please don't misunderstand, I have nothing against people who hold the view and I understand why they hold it, but when you start looking for it in scripture, it's just not there.

Hi Steve,

Thank you for explaining fully your understanding and view. I see what you mean.  Now had you thought that after the Russian war, (Ez. 38 & 39) then it says -

`I will set my glory among the nations; all the nations shall see my judgment which I have executed and my hand which I have laid upon them. So the HOUSE OF ISRAEL SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD FROM THAT DAY FORWARD.` (Ez. 39: 21 & 22)

`And I will not hide my face from them any more; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the HOUSEHOLD OF ISRAEL,` says the Lord.` (Ez. 39: 29)

Capitals are to highlight the important parts. Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

Thank you for explaining fully your understanding and view. I see what you mean.  Now had you thought that after the Russian war, (Ez. 38 & 39) then it says -

`I will set my glory among the nations; all the nations shall see my judgment which I have executed and my hand which I have laid upon them. So the HOUSE OF ISRAEL SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD FROM THAT DAY FORWARD.` (Ez. 39: 21 & 22)

`And I will not hide my face from them any more; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the HOUSEHOLD OF ISRAEL,` says the Lord.` (Ez. 39: 29)

Capitals are to highlight the important parts. Marilyn.

I'm not positive that it's russia, but it possibly, maybe probably, is. Otherwise, that war is likely after the abomination, so that wouldn't be relevant. I agree wholly that the nation of Israel will be totally reconciled to God at some point.

[Marilyn C]

21 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I'm not positive that it's russia, but it possibly, maybe probably, is. Otherwise, that war is likely after the abomination, so that wouldn't be relevant. I agree wholly that the nation of Israel will be totally reconciled to God at some point.

Ok bro, that`s something we can agree on ay.

Have a good night, regards, Marilyn.

[Steve_S]

34 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Ok bro, that`s something we can agree on ay.

Have a good night, regards, Marilyn.

You too. God bless. :).