Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Daniel 11:36]

"This position teaches that the rapture happens before the “great tribulation” begins in the middle of “the tribulation period"

 

Not true .... the rapture will take place just before the coming tribulation begins [1 st Thessalonians 4:13-18]

Believe this so that you will not be left to enter the coming tribulation period of 7 years if you live that long

 

 

[Steve Conley]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

There are no proofs that there will be a pre-trib rapture. There is not a single explicit statement of the Scriptures that says the rapture will be pre-trib. What pre-tribulationists have are some eschatological themes which are misunderstood, that are thought to imply that there will be a pre-trib rapture. These are no more than assumptions or guesses.

Some of the misunderstandings are:

1) That the seventieth week (seven years), which they call "the tribulation period", is the wrath of God on day of the Lord.

The truth is that the day of the Lord, and therefore God's wrath, doesn't begin until after the cosmic sign spoken of by Joel and Peter appears. Jesus says that it appears immediately after the great tribulation which starts in the middle of the week. This lets us know that the great tribulation and the day of the Lord are not the same thing. The first is the unprecedented persecution of the elect (the church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. The second is the wrath of God poured out upon the Beast worshipers who persecuted the church and Israel in the form of the trumpet and vial judgements in the day of the Lord.

2) That the great tribulation is the wrath that we are not appointed unto.

The truth is that the great tribulation is the wrath of Satan (Rev 12:12) through the Beast and his followers upon the elect (the church) and Israel. Great tribulation is not the wrath of God which were are to be protected from. The wrath of God takes place in the day of the Lord. We are not appointed unto God's wrath which comes suddenly at His coming which begins the day of the Lord.

3) That the Lord's return is imminent, that is, He could return at any moment.

The truth is that Jesus and Paul say that before Christ's coming and our gathering unto Him there must first be a notable departure from the faith and the man of sin (the Beast) be revealed. It should be obvious that Peter never taught an imminent return because Christ told him that he would be martyred in old age. The Bible teaches watchful expectancy not anymomentism.

4) That seven years separates the gathering of the church at the rapture from the second coming of Christ.

The truth is that there is only one coming of Christ in the future. It is His second coming. Coming is translated from parousia which refers to the arrival and continuing presence of Christ. There are not two future parousias, just one. Like His first coming is more than His conception or birth the second coming will be more than His arrival. His arrival will be glorious and visible to all the world. It is at that time that He resurrects the dead saints and raptures them together with the survivors of the great tribulation before His wrath begins to fall upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers.

The charts below provides references for the assertions I have made.

Hallelujah

[Diaste]

On 2/27/2018 at 3:53 PM, Dennis1209 said:

but I've yet to personally see anyone swayed from their own stance on that subject.

Check out Rebecca Bee on youtube. She was predicting the rapture about once a week for three years(I think) based on the Jewish feasts and astrological events. Firm pretribber. No more. She apologized and now knows the truth.

I was pretrib for decades. How I was taught in the beginning. It's wrong and I know that now. Well for many years I now know that pretrib is incorrect. Now you know one person who has turned from the lie. Go check out Rebecca Bee's vids and you'll meet another.

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2018 at 6:53 PM, OldCoot said:

Just to muddy the waters even more, I came across this video yesterday and it is an interesting take on the Rapture and End time scenario.  It may be no more valid than any other concept on these things, but it is a fascinating take nonetheless.  Worth watching, if nothing more than just seeing another take on the topic......

 

A Scott Clarke anything is littered with non biblical conclusions. He relies more on the Talmud than bible, and more on astrology than reality. Best not look at this.

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2018 at 9:34 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Not true .... the rapture will take place just before the coming tribulation begins [1 st Thessalonians 4:13-18]

"13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Where does this state explicitly the rapture occurs...well...anytime? No timing here for the coming of the Lord. No mention of tribulation, great, or otherwise. Just an assumption. A hope. Personal belief.

The context here is the sorrow over those which have died and the great hope we are to have in the resurrection of those who died before. This has nothing to do with a hope we are snatched away from the dreadful time of well paying jobs, full bellies, comfortable homes, friends, family, a three car garage and a boat. Western Christians. No clue about what's going on in the rest of the world. 100,000 of our brothers and sisters die for Jesus every year, and they have no great hope in rapture, no great comfort of being taken out of where they are. What do you say to them? Nothing. Why? Because it causes you no immediate discomfort. They aren't a part of the true church are they? Only western Christianity has the privilege of the rapture to save them from their fast food lives.

No indeed. The great comfort is that Jesus will not forget our loved ones, brothers and sisters, who have died before us, in the great day of the Lord and the gathering of the elect. A group to which I hope you will one day you will be a part.

Diaste.

[OldCoot]

30 minutes ago, Diaste said:

A Scott Clarke anything is littered with non biblical conclusions. He relies more on the Talmud than bible, and more on astrology than reality. Best not look at this.

While I haven't come across everything Clarke has done, I haven't ever really seen much from him that he relies on the Talmud or astrology.  Astronomy, yeah he did do that with the Revelation 12 alignment thing, but that isn't astrology.  Funny how word meanings tend to coalesce over time in some folk's minds even thought the words have dramatically different meanings.  Again, not seeing a lot of what Clarke has done, I didn't pick up on any Talmudic references, let alone relying on them.  Could you point those out for us?

[OldCoot]

38 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Where does this state explicitly the rapture occurs...well...anytime? No timing here for the coming of the Lord. No mention of tribulation, great, or otherwise. Just an assumption. A hope. Personal belief.

1 Thes 4:17.  At least in the Latin Bible where the Greek "harpazo" is translated as Rapimier from which we get our English word Rapture.  Do an entomology study on the word Rapture.  Just because English translators did not use Rapture in that verse does not take away what harpazo or rapimier means.  Most English translators use phrases like "caught away" or similar.  States the same thing basically though it doesn't use the word "rapture" explicitly. 

No mention of tribulation? Are you serious?  

Matthew 24:21-22 (NKJV) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Would be quite a stretch to find that Yeshua was referring to 70 AD or 135 AD events.  He stated explicitly that the "tribulation" He was referring to would be greater than anything preceding it and nothing like it would follow.  WW1 and WWII definitely far exceeded anything in the first century.

You are essentially correct on one point.... something like the Rapture is indeed a hope and a personal belief.  But it has some basis in scripture.  And Paul told us to comfort one another with these words.  If there isn't a catching away, Lord returning, etc doesn't sound too comforting.

[Diaste]

15 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

No mention of tribulation? Are you serious?  

The quote from Daniel11:36 cited 1 Thess 4:13-18. Other passages talk about tribulation, not this one. There is no mention of timing or tribulation in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Let me wax verbose and pedantic and repost:

"13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Now if you can find tribulation, or the timing of this event, in this passage you're smarter than all of us.

[Diaste]

46 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

While I haven't come across everything Clarke has done, I haven't ever really seen much from him that he relies on the Talmud or astrology.  Astronomy, yeah he did do that with the Revelation 12 alignment thing, but that isn't astrology.  Funny how word meanings tend to coalesce over time in some folk's minds even thought the words have dramatically different meanings.  Again, not seeing a lot of what Clarke has done, I didn't pick up on any Talmudic references, let alone relying on them.  Could you point those out for us?

Watch his rapture timing vids. It's all Jewish tradition, Talmud, and ASTROLOGY. You know, where people put their belief in constellations and heavenly alignments? Astronomy does not consider planetary alignments with stars and constellations to have life changing or earth shattering meaning. Astronomy observes the heavens and makes a record of it and then makes predictions of future stunning and or rare alignments, but places no religious significance on such things. ASTROLOGY does. As does S. Clarke. Biggest enemy of the Lord pretending to be a sheep I have ever seen. 

You are as obtuse as ever. Some things never change.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Diaste

[OldCoot]

8 minutes ago, Diaste said:

The quote from Daniel11:36 cited 1 Thess 4:13-18. Other passages talk about tribulation, not this one. There is no mention of timing or tribulation in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Let me wax verbose and pedantic and repost:

"13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Now if you can find tribulation, or the timing of this event, in this passage you're smarter than all of us.

Ok.  I have a bead on it now.  You are wanting to just be contentious.  I never implied there was a mention of the tribulation in 1 Thes 4.  I didn't even use that book as a pretext for my disputing your assertion that there is no mention of a Great Tribulation, or rather a tribulation that will exceed everything that came before it and never would occur that severe again.  

There isn't a mention of God in the Book of Esther either. Does that mean God doesn't exist?  That is the same reasoning you are using here.    Well, I take that back a little.  God is mentioned, actually YHVH, if you understand the concept of equidistant letter sequencing in scripture.