Charismatic Church History

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Jostler said:

And I would ask you why I should listen to you over the clearly written Word.

 

The Bible CLEARLY tells us when tongues, prophecy and even knowledge will cease.  And the time for cessation has not come.

Paul uses a well known rhetorical device to make his point.  He divided his argument into "now" (while tongues, prophecy and knowledge are in effect) and "then" (when tongues, knowledge and prophecy will cease).

And until you have seen Father, face to face, until you know the number of hairs on His head, prophecy and tongues, and all the other gifts of the Spirit will be in effect, and useful to Him, through His people, in taking the power of heaven and applying it to needs and ministry on this earth.

It is folly to set your own intellect over the clear Word.....and personally dangerous to you.

When we see face to face....not before.  And none of us have seen His face yet.

None of this addressed my post... so I don't know why you quoted me

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

First you are confusing fleshly with earthly. Fleshly things do not bring spiritual results, but many earthly things bring spiritual results. Second, you are assuming that "tongues" is being used as a replacement for the word of God or the Word of God (Jesus). Based upon those two thoughts, you then take glossalia as Satanic. Please open your mind to these Biblical truths.

1. The Bible teaches that there are not two classes of Christian. Neither speaking in "tongues" nor not speaking in "tongues" makes you superior to any one else. It also teaches that we are to need one another in the body of Christ.

2. The Bible does not teach that "tongues" would cease when the canon was complete. It teaches that where perfect love is, the gifts are superfluous. While I believe that this may happen individually, it will not happen corporately until He comes.

3. The Bible speaks of the gifts of "tongues" in the plural, much as it does miracles. This means that "tongues" is not one gift, but a number of gifts and uses. This often causes confusion if you try to combine all the teaching into one track.

4. The extensive teaching and reference to "tongues" in scripture puts those who deny it's present validity in the awkward position of deciding what part of the word of God is still part of the word of God and what has no bearing upon us.

The fact is that "tongues" did not cease when the canon was complete. It continued for hundreds of years, was never condemned by the older churches and has arisen numerous times in church history.

 

This is another like Jostler... quoting but addressing no points I made but just trying to say what you think of tongues and relevancy for today... people should only quote what they comment on!

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

Do you see now how I responded to your post. Do you need further clarification?

We cannot discourse at all because in everyone of your replies you address things that wasn't even in my post.... so I have no idea how to respond or to further the dialogue. Thanks anyway!

[dhchristian]

My two cents worth on the Topic of the Charismatic movement... The first movement was Known for speaking in tongues in this Laodicean age, the final movement, The latter rain if you will is the Gift of discernment.  

What we have seen is the hyper rationality of Modernism and scientism which in theology led to the fundamentalist movement and eventually to the scientific approach to scriptures. This being the Cult of Textualism of this previous church age. As a Reaction, the charismatic movement abandoned much 0f this rationalism, and went they way of searching for the experience at the expense of those rational elements such as sound doctrine and Objective Truth of the Word of God. Arguably this was by design from God, that we learn not to trust our own intellect but rather to Walk in the Spirit. Discernment is that final completion that closes the door on the church age and brings in the fulness of times that we are living in. There is no more eighth church age, but the church becomes the saints, the Royal priesthood of the coming age.

We are seeing in these days those who love the Lord, being called out and prepared for this by the discipline of the Father And the instruction of the Holy Ghost. God has a plan, and it's coming to fruition irregardless of what the adversary is trying to do and those who are called out are discovering the Gift of discernment which is the final outpouring of this age. This is all in the Letter to the Laodiceans found in revelation 3:14ff.... every detail in that is important to this age from the descriptive title in the first verse to the very end on "hearing What the Spirit says..." The animosity against Our charismatic brothers must be laid aside, yes there is a lot of heresy and fallacy in this movement and many are falling for seducing spirits because they are lacking this discernment. But the wheat and tears will grow together till the time of the harvest. We are all Laodiceans whether we believe this or not, and we will all either be harvested or gathered And burned. The Faith of the Apostles is Both irrational and based on The Truth of the Word of God. Irattional in that faith itself is the evidence of that which is unseen, and that the Wisdom of the wise will be confounded by it. Discernment is the supernatural ability to see the Truth in a person, when this gift is poured out those who receive this will immediately be able to see who is a charlatan and who is not, they will be given the eyes to see by applying the eyesalve of God, which he tells this church age to purchase.

In My opinion we are on the verge of this gift falling upon the people of God, ALL of them who heed the call. When this does occur, Mal.3:16-4:3 will be fulfilled.

I Have taken a lot of heat for this word given to me before I am not going to debate it.  You either see and hear or you do not see and hear.

God bless.      

[missmuffet]

7 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

He says. "is the Charismatic movement scriptural? " But he provides no scripture that answers the question, rather uses eisegesis to then go on a tangent. His conclusion, "the Body of Christ does not need new apostles, nor new faith healers, nor self-styled miracle workers", is neither connected clearly with the Charismatic Movement (as the "five-fold ministry" movement is a much smaller group) nor proven by scripture. His argument can be summed up in this regard: Since the devil seeks to twist the scriptures, and since the charismatics are wrought with demonic activity, they must not be seeking the truth of scripture over their experiences and therefore have abandoned the truth of scripture.

The entire argument is packed full of fallacious logic and assumptions.

Suit yourself. 

[JustPassingThru]

Let's see..., what I have personally "observed" in the "Charismatic Movement,"...sane people croaking like frogs, barking like dogs, roaring like lions, running laps in the Sanctuary, ...hypnotizing people like we saw at the County Fair side shows, ...and calling it slain by the Holy Spirit, ...otherwise rational people blabbering, jabbering two syllable incoherent words over and over, people rolling on the floor laughing, ...and this is a good one, ...peoples frozen, wide open mouth, wide eyed faces, ...just like I observed when the junkies back in the 60's shot up, "that" is just one part of the Charismatic Movement I have "observed", ...turning the Holy Spirit into the Holy Clown, ...we call it charismania!

Yes I believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are active in the Church today, ...how could the Church be operational and have "survived" for two centuries without them, ...but like the Holy Spirit wrote, ..."God is God of order and let ALL things be done in decency and in order."

Lord bless

[Jostler]

7 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Let's see..., what I have personally "observed" in the "Charismatic Movement,"...sane people croaking like frogs, barking like dogs, roaring like lions, running laps in the Sanctuary, ...hypnotizing people like we saw at the County Fair side shows, ...and calling it slain by the Holy Spirit, ...otherwise rational people blabbering, jabbering two syllable incoherent words over and over, people rolling on the floor laughing, ...and this is a good one, ...peoples frozen, wide open mouth, wide eyed faces, ...just like I observed when the junkies back in the 60's shot up, "that" is just one part of the Charismatic Movement I have "observed", ...turning the Holy Spirit into the Holy Clown, ...we call it charismania!

Yes I believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are active in the Church today, ...how could the Church be operational and have "survived" for two centuries without them, ...but like the Holy Spirit wrote, ..."God is God of order and let ALL things be done in decency and in order."

Lord bless

which is exactly where discernment comes in.

[Justin Adams]

The cessationist points are as flawed as the hyper- charismatics are.

I have seen and heard about the Bethel people doing very odd things. I have been in quiet settings and seen with my own eyes the Gift of Discernment and Exorcism. 

I will never be convinced of the cessationist point of view due to personal experiences. I also am wary of some happy-clappy assemblies that equate noise with power. So I just use that little bit of discernment the Lord has been gracious to give me.

[enoob57]

44 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I will never be convinced of the cessationist point of view due to personal experiences.

It is to this very point that I examine the Word of God toward eternal matters:
First would you agree that everything that 'IS' of God continues for all eternity with God? This is a very critical aspect of reasoning with the personal experiences. God has already shown to us that all experiences will end and be forgotten into the eternal state.

Rev 21:1-5

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

KJV

So here in our future we see all that we are now-> Mind, will and emotion will be redeemed unto newness of life not yet realized except by His Word to us

1 Cor 2:9-11

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
KJV

We are to build upon the Foundation of Christ, 'The Living Word', and is understood by both The Creative Word and The Written Word by the tutoring of The Holy Spirit 'The blessed eternal hope' of Christ

1 Cor 3:10-11

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
KJV
 

[Heybro]

Justpassingthru, I remember seeing a clip of Kenneth Hogan and Rodney Howard-Brown speaking to one another "in tongues" like they knew what they were saying to one another. All that you have mentioned was happening in the churches some years ago, and may well still be happening in some churches still? Do you really think they are representing God's character, not I, but the character of the deceiver. All of this "farce" started back in Pensecola and caused a great rift in The Body of Christ worldwide, and divided churches, one of which my wife and I were involved in, here in Australia. Yet again, another ploy of the devil to divide and plunder, stay strong in your convictions, listen to the Spirit's leading, God bless.