Saturday or Sunday?

[Justin Adams]

Peace:

Perhaps a reading of the church fathers warnings for the early Christians NOT to "judaicize" the Sabbath would help. Then it would be easier to see the point here. The father's (unabridged and original texts) encouraged Christians (Gentiles and Israelis) to strip off the old Judaistic rules, much of them man made anyway, and worship the Lord Yeshusa on His Day. The Lord's Day.
So very simple and straightforward really.
There is a great deal of documentation about this. Everyone is free to study this if they want to.

[Riccardo]

8 hours ago, BobRyan said:

Even in Acts 20 there is no "first day of the week is the Lord's Day" or "we meet every week day 1" rather it is a Saturday evening service and on week-day-1 they plan all-day-travel.

The Total obvious doesn't seem to be able to be seen, I have mentioned this so many times, it stands out like a sore thumb.

God bless

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Peace:

Perhaps a reading of the church fathers warnings for the early Christians NOT to "judaicize" the Sabbath would help. Then it would be easier to see the point here.

So then why bother with the Bible when Catholic sources are so happy to 'make stuff up'?? That is the "solution"???

Acts 20

²⁸ Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. ²⁹ I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; ³⁰ and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. ³¹ Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

 

Gal 1:6-9

⁶ I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; ⁷ which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. ⁸ But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! ⁹ As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

 

Col 2

²⁰ If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, ²¹ “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” ²² (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? ²³ These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

 

Mark 7

⁷ ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

⁸ Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

⁹ He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. ¹⁰ For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; ¹¹ but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ ¹² you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; ¹³ thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

====================================================

 

Among Protestants there is such a thing as "sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice

Edited October 31, 2017 by BobRyan

[FresnoJoe]

The LORD's Day~!

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1:10

And What Day Could That Be.....

For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. Matthew 12:8

[Justin Adams]

While some seem to strain at the gnat of the sabbath keepers, whole camels of questionable doctrine are swallowed, regurgitated, and swallowed again and again in a perpetual parody of 'church-mother feeding her chicks'.

'Keep swallowing' goes the cry; sooner or later it will taste better...

Beginning with the first century believers, the purveyors of division and disinformation were hard at work.
It is no wonder that some of the modern 'champions of truth' are so misinformed and sadly so emphatic that they are correct in their 'new enlightenment'.  
After all, some few misquoted lines of history adorn the expert's bookshelves of those that indoctrinate them. They are 'healed lightly' by their mentors and teachers; they do not have the time to go to the source texts and study for themselves.
It even seems that some are taught; just point the finger, be an inquisitor, get steamed up in 'righteous indignation' and then wait in line for your ticket to heaven.

[Guest shiloh357]

15 hours ago, John Robinson said:

...and with the unsaid subtext that Christians who go to church on Sunday have taken the "mark of the beast", and thus are damned to hell.  Pernicious junk, ain't it?

That's part of the private face of the Seventh Day Adventist cult.   I have noticed that they, like other cults, have a public face and a private face.   It's only when you are part of the cult and basically get full indoctrinated that you are taught that Sunday church observance is the mark of the beast.  That's the part they fight pretty hard to keep us from talking about here on the boards.

It pretty much defeats their denial that they are not teaching that the Sabbath is required for salvation. 

[Justin Adams]

Peace:
There are many non-SDA people in the world that hold to the truth of the Sabbath. However the tone of the detractors can often be seen to represent a certain fruit of unkindness. Know a tree by its fruit.

Below is a brief excerpt of some of the original texts supporting Sabbath claims. These are the non-edited and edited versions; some of them have obviously be added to as can be seen in an attempt to subvert Sabbath keeping etc. There is ample data available to substantiate misrepresented Sabbath changes that prove they were of man's meddlings.
_______________________________________________________________-

Now let’s examine IGNATIUS: If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him ... let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.).

Here is what the Greek states:

Εί ούν οί έν παλαιοîς πράγμασιν άναστραφέντες είς καινότητα έλπίδος ήλθον, μηκέτι σαββατίζοντες, άλλά κατά κυριακήν ζώντες, έν ή καί ή ζωή ήμών άνέτειλεν δι’ αύτού καί τού θανάτου αύτού, <öν> τινες άρνούνται, δι’ ού μυστηρίου έλάβομεν τò πιστεύειν, καί διά τούτο ύπομένομεν, ïνα εύρεθώμεν μαθηταί 'Iησού Χριστού τού μόνου διδασκάλου ήμών· (Holmes, p. 154).

Here is a fairly typical 19th Century translation of verse 9.1, by Dr. J.B. Lightfoot:

“If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny -- a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher” (Ignatius. Letter to the Magnesians, Verse 9.1. Translated by J.B. Lightfoot. Apostolic Fathers, Lightfoot & Harmer, 1891 translation. © 2001 Peter Kirby). But what is its true meaning?

First, it is mistranslated. The 19th century theologian John Kitto understood that neither the context nor the Greek required adding the word “day.”  Thus he translated a highly relevant part of it correctly as follows: “…living according to our Lord s life…”( Kitto J.  The cyclopaedia of Biblical literature, Volume 2.  American Book Exchange, 1881.  Original from Harvard University, Digitized. Jan 31, 2008 p. 270).

John Kitto also made the following comments about the passage from Ignatius: “Now many commentators assume (on what ground does not appear), that alter κυριακήν [Lord’s] the word ἡμέραν [day] is to be understood… The defect of the sentence is the want of a substantive to which άvroύ can refer. This defect, so far from being- remedied, is rendered still more glaring by the introduction of ἡμέραν…the passage does not refer at all to the Lord’s day…it cannot be regarded as affording any positive evidence to the early use of the term ‘Lord’s day’ (for which it is often cited), since the word ἡμέραν [day] is purely conjectural” (ibid). Yet, almost all anti-Sabbath websites have ignored the scholars that understand the truth about Ignatius’ writings as they cite the mistranslations as “proof” of early Sunday observance—even though the actual Greek text does no such thing.

Now what does it mean, “, no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, [or as it should read “according to the Lord’s life”]”?

To better understand Ignatius' letter, we should look at more of the context and not just verse 9.1. out-of-context as some Sunday advocates have.

Notice the context:

8:1 Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace:

8:2 for the divine prophets lived after Christ Jesus. For this cause also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to the end that they which are disobedient might be fully persuaded that there is one God who manifested Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word that proceeded from silence, who in all things was well-pleasing unto Him that sent Him.

9:1 If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer
observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny – a mystery whereby we attained unto belief, and for this cause we endure patiently, that we may be found disciples of Jesus Christ our only teacher –

9:2 if this be so, how shall we be able to live apart from Him? seeing that even the prophets, being His disciples, were expecting Him as their teacher through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the dead.

The context is Judaizing the Christian faith. Not the Old Testament, but the man made religion of Judaism. There are at least two reasons for this. The first is that the godly Old Testament prophets had been keeping the seventh day Sabbath. And the second is since the portion of the Greek term translated as the first part of “no longer” is a ‘qualified negative’ (Strong J.  Words 3371 & 3361 in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, Abington, Nashville, 1890 , p.48), the context supports that the ‘Judaic concepts’ (verse 8.2) are part of the qualification.

It may also be of interest to note how the less-accepted “longer” version of Ignatius’ letter was translated in the Ante-Nicene Fathers as follows: “Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner...”(Ignatius (Pseudo). The Epistle to the Magnesians (longer recension). Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1999 printing, p.62).

This assessment is also consistent with later testimony from Jerome who mentioned that the Sabbath-keeping Christians he ran into did not adhere to the Jewish traditions--in other words, although they kept the Sabbath, the Nazarenes did not keep the Sabbath Judaically.

Jerome 404 a.d. declares:  "On Isaiah 9:1-4

"The Nazarenes, whose opinion I have set forth above, try to explain this passage in the following way: When Christ came and his preaching shone out, the land of Zebulon and Naphtali [the region of Galilee] first of all were freed from the errors of the Scribes and Pharisees and he shook off their shoulders the very heavy yoke of the JEWISH TRADITIONS. Later, however, the preaching became more dominant, that means the preaching was multiplied, through the gospel of the apostle Paul who was the last of all the apostles. And the gospel of Christ shone to the most distant tribes and the way of the whole sea. Finally the whole world, which earlier walked or sat in darkness and was imprisoned in the bonds of idolatry and death, has seen the clear light of the gospel" (p.64).

In this passage, we find that the Nazarene Christians -- like Jesus the Messiah, Peter, James, John and especially Paul -- rejected Jewish traditionalism, invention, and additions to the Torah or Old Testament. They referred to them as the "very heavy yoke of the Jewish traditions."

The Nazarenes existed well into the third century, and were actively engaged in a dialogue -- "heated, no doubt," says Ray Pritz -- with rabbinic Judaism. Pritz adds that the Nazarene Jewish Church was "familiar with the developments within Judaism and rejected the authority of the pharisaic scholars to interpret scripture definitively."

Pritz goes on: "...Nor did they accept as binding on themselves (or on any Jews) the Oral Law as embodied in the Mishnah. These Jewish Christians view Paul and his mission favorably and evidently even accepted -- in theory at least -- the unity of the Church as composed of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ...And finally, this group had not lost hope that the Jewish people might yet turn to accept Jesus as the Messiah" (see Ray A. Pritz, Nazarene Jewish Christianity: From the end of the New Testament Period until its disappearance in the Fourth Century, The Magnes Press, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, c.1992, p. 70).

The ancient churches held this belief for a long time of not Judaizing the church, "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius (A.D. 297-373, Bishop of Alexandria) likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. Epiphanius says the same." (Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Bk.xx, Ch.3, Sec 1, 66. 1136,1137).  

Ignatius was teaching that the godly prophets, who lived in ancient times, lived in accordance to the ways of Jesus Christ, and not after improper Judaic concepts. 

[http://biblelight.net/notsun.htm]

Edited November 1, 2017 by Justin Adams
syn

[Guest shiloh357]

29 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Old Wives tales

No, it is not.  SDA teaches that Sunday is the mark of the beast.

 

[John Robinson]

If it wasn't salvic, then you people--SDA's and their fellow travelers--wouldn't feel compelled to go on and on--and on and on and on--about it. I just wish that for once one of your group would step up and boldly say, "So you go to church on Sunday, huh? Well then, hell welcomes you." But to go into excruciating detail about a day of the week that for Christians is simply a non-starter is aggravating in the extreme.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, inchrist said:

I dont really care what they say....its old wivies tales on the belief rome is the beast

The RCC is really Mystery Babylon.