An unprecedented event: would you join this?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Hard to convince false teachers like you seem to be

So I would suggest that you take up some other theological prose for your ranting

To convince you would be a farce

Please don't project your inadequacies onto me.  Learn to deal with them yourself.

• “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’  For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”  Matthew 11:16-19

Your modus operandi has consistently been to find fault with and slander everyone who doesn't dance to your tune.  If you can't engage in a reasoned discussion then perhaps you should refrain from making any reply at all.  This kind of tripe is really, really getting old.

[Daniel 11:36]

I will make replies when appropriate son .... your comments are boring

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Cletus said:

no need to pray for God to hurry up.... 

matt 24: ²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

God already has that covered. 

Shalom, Cletus.

Except, ... that's NOT what that verse is talking about. We've already experienced almost 2,000 YEARS of the "those days" of tribulation. It's like what we call the "work week":

In our culture, we "work" (some more, some less) for 8 hours a day and 5 days a week, making what we call a "40-hour work week," and if we are paid on a "per-hour" basis, we will get a gross income of 40 hours x $X per hour = $40X for gross pay. If that were $10.00/hour, we'd get $400.00 gross pay for the week.

Now, think of "dollars" as a BAD thing, like persecution: if we got a full 7 days of 24 hours/day, we'd have 168 hours, and if we could survive it, we'd get $168X gross pay for the week! In fact, we WOULDN'T survive it! We need SLEEP! We need to be able to EAT! We need to DRINK water at times! If our work was relentless, we'd be going to the hospital LONG before the week was up!

The "tribulation" is PERSECUTION; it's HOUNDING a person, putting PRESSURE upon a person! The "tribulation" (Greek word is "thlipsis") is NOT a "period of time!" Strong's says this:

NT:2347 thlipsis (thlip'-sis). From thliboo; pressure (literally or figuratively) -- afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

And, the entry for thilboo says this:

NT:2346 thlipboo (thlee'-bo). Akin to the base of tribos; to crowd (literally or figuratively) -- afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.

And, the entry for tribos says this:

NT:5147 tribos (tree'-bos). From triboo (to "rub"; akin to teiroo, truoo, and the base of tragos, trauma); a rut or worn track -- path.

We used to have a saying when I was growing up: "Two is company; three is a crowd; four on the sidewalk is not allowed." It was talking about walking shoulder to shoulder with others on the sidewalk. It is this crowding, this pressure, that "thlipsis" is talking about.

From 70 A.D. and 168 A.D. until 1948 A.D., the Jews had no homeland, no place to call their own. They often had to move from town to town, from province to province, from country to country, as they were chased and put to flight by each community in which they attempted to settle. Some of these were light; most were severe. Many of them were deadly as the communities would even KILL them to get rid of them! From the persecutions of Rome, through the Inquisitions and Crusades, and the pogroms of Russia, the Jews never had a permanent place to stay. Finally, while staying in communities of Poland and Austria and Germany, they were rounded up like cattle and led to the slaughterhouses of the "Third Reich" (the "Third Kingdom") as Germany's Hitler attempted to exterminate them in the Holocaust! THIS was "thlipsis!"

It was a wonderful thing, an IMPOSSIBLE thing (from a man's point of view) for Israel to once again become a nation, but through God's miraculous power and intervention, it became a reality in 1948.

However, the story doesn't stop there with a "they lived happily ever after." All the Arab nations that surround them want them PERMANENTLY gone, "driven into the sea!" Squatters planted in the Land by the Jordanians to deter the advances of Israel before they became a nation, were routed back to Jordan, but Jordan would not take back these "refugees." And so, homeless, the newly formed Israel allowed them to stay, remembering how THEY were once likewise homeless as they were chased from country to country. Now, those refugees call themselves "Palestinians" (as though they always lived there), and have the audacity to DEMAND a portion of the Land with Jerusalem as THEIR capital city! OUTRAGEOUS! In any case, the children of Israel who are back in the Land of Israel have NOT had it easy! Between terrorism within their own borders and rockets and mortar shells launched at them from their borders at the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights, over 50% of the children in Israel suffer from PTSD! And, it's been 70 years since Israel became a nation again!

They've been IN the tribulation for millennia and will be IN the tribulation until the Messiah Yeshua` comes back (comes for the first time, in the eyes of many Jews) and rescues His Family (Hebrew: Mishpachah), fighting for them during an attempt at genocide.

Matthew 24:22 isn't about a 3.5-year period becoming shorter or even a 7-year period being shortened. In fact, it's not about ANY time period becoming shorter. It's the number of DAYS WITHIN the time period being shortened.

In the example above, it's the number of WORK DAYS WITHIN the 168 hours of the week being shortened to a 5-day, 40-hour work week so a person can survive the week. Listen to it again:

Matthew 24:15-22 (KJV)

15 When YE (His JEWISH disciples to whom He was talking) therefore shall see ... (removed to reduce distraction),  16 Then (YOU) let them which be in Judaea (the land of Y'hudah or Judah; the land of the Jews) flee into the mountains (the mountains of Israel): 17  (YOU) Let him which is on the housetop (i.e., within the Old City of Jerusalem) not come down to take any thing out of his house: (Take the "Road of the Rooftops" out of town!) 18 Neither (YOU) let him which is in the field return back (i.e., into the Old City) to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (These are women trying to escape with a child in the womb or in her arms.) 20 But pray YE that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day (which is important to the children of Israel): 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days (WITHIN the tribulation) should be shortened, there should no flesh (no body) be saved: but for the elect's sake (the sake of the "Chosen Seed of Israel's race") those days shall be shortened. 

These people to whom He was talking were Jews who lived in the First Century A.D. (since Anno Domini, the Year of our Lord), and it was TO THEM that He delivered the first warnings of this "tribulation," called by Yirmeyahuw (Jeremiah) "the time of JACOB'S trouble":

Jeremiah 30:1-11 (KJV)

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day (the day they are "saved out of it"), saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God (represented by the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah), and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save (rescue) thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save (rescue) thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Cletus said:

wrong.  it says exactly what i said it says.  you are REALLY over complicating it with unrelated stuff about workweeks and overtime and needing sleep and all that.  that is about where i stopped reading what you said.  below are the strongs concordance numbers following the english words. i went ahead and posted the numbers cross ref for you below so you can see for youself it does say what i said, and not anything about work weeks with however many hours. 

Mat 24:22  AndG2532 exceptG1508 thoseG1565 daysG2250 should be shortened,G2856 there should noG3756 fleshG4561 be saved:G4982 G302 butG1161 for the elect's sakeG1223 G3588 G1588 thoseG1565 daysG2250 shall be shortened.G2856

G2250
ἡμέρα
hēmera
hay-mer'-ah
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

G2856
κολοβόω
koloboō
kol-ob-o'-o
From a derivative of the base of G2849; to dock, that is, (figuratively) abridge: - shorten.

 

Shabbat shalom, Cletus.

And, you're not reading it right IN CONTEXT! This is not some "magical shortening of the period of time!" All He is saying is that He will give them times WITHIN the period to RECUPERATE FROM THE TRIBULATION THEY'RE IN! The LENGTH of the time period is PURELY up to them! Yeshua` said this when He pronounced them "desolate":

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE would not! 38 Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU desolate. 39 For I say unto YOU, YE shall not see me henceforth, till YE shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Please try to follow along; this will take a little effort from one whose native language is not Hebrew to connect the dots:

This statement from Yeshua` contains a quotation from Psalm 118:26. In context, it reads in English as:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing (YHWH'S doing); it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: howoshiy`aah naa' = Greek transliteration: hosanna), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: Baaruwkh habaa' b-sheem YHWH): we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

These words, Baaruwkh habaa', can be seen in their masculine, plural form (Baaruwkhiym habaa'iym) at the seaports and airports in Israel today! It means "Welcome, comers!"

So, what Yeshua` was saying is this: You won't see me again until you can WELCOME ME back! And, they must welcome Him as One who comes "IN THE NAME" (b-sheem) of the LORD (YHWH)! That word (those words), b-sheem, which literally reads "in-name," means "ON THE AUTHORITY." They must not only welcome Him, but they must welcome Him as the One who comes "on the authority" of YHWH! The MESSIAH they're expecting!

We believers who are Gentiles can do little to affect when the Messiah returns directly, because it depends on THEM, the JEWS! And, in particular, it depends on the Jews of JERUSALEM! But, we CAN affect when the Messiah returns INDIRECTLY, if we follow Paul's lead in Romans 11:

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (i.e., God doesn't renege on His gifts or calling; He doesn't go back on His promises!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, we are to SHARE with the Jews (in Jerusalem, particularly) that the Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) is THEIR Messiah (THEIR "Christ")! Have MERCY on them, "your enemies, as concerning the good news!" Why? Because they are the GRANDCHILDREN of the Patriarchs, Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)! They are CHILDREN of the man called "Israel" (Jacob)! That's what "the children of Israel" means! They are also close RELATIVES of Yeshua` HIMSELF, who is OUR SAVIOR, and HE loves them UNCONDITIONALLY! That's why I count myself as a "Messianic Jew." If I am physically a Jew, I don't have the credentials to prove it (although my grandmother claimed it), but I AM a "Jew who is one inwardly" through the "circumcision of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter." (Romans 2:28-29)

Ya`aqov after Yeshua`s Resurrection and Ascension ("James") said,

James 4:1-6 (KJV)

1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

So, we don't yet have the Son of God returned to us because we don't ASK for Him to come! Some of us DO ask, but we ask for OURSELVES so that WE might "go to heaven" and receive all of God's good things! ASK, yes! But, ask for HIS sake, for GOD'S sake!

Matthew 6:9-10 (KJV)

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke says it this way:

Luke 11:2 (KJV)

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

And, that sentence, "Thy kingdom come," in Greek is "elthetoo hee basileia sou." That is, "you-let-come the kingdom of-you." It's a request for God to allow His Kingdom to come on earth, which won't happen until the King Himself returns!

And, so we ask ... which is the whole point of this thread!

[listener24]

On 5/24/2018 at 7:31 PM, Cletus said:

no need to pray for God to hurry up.... 

matt 24: ²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

God already has that covered. 

Hi @Cletus and thanks for expressing this opinion.

I'd like to divide my answer in "general considerations" and "considerations on Matthew 24:22"

1 GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS

Hastening the return of the King is a subject worth discussing, because either one of this is true:

A) our PRAYERS and actions (spreading the Gospel) do have the power of hastening the day of the Lord (as 2 Peter 3:12 seems to suggest)

B) our PRAYERS and actions (spreading the Gospel) do NOT have the power of hastening the day of the Lord

Now we can also preach either A or B.

But if we preach that our prayers and actions CANNOT hasten the day of the Lord, but A is true, we are making a tremendous mistake: we will be responsible, in front of the Father, to have spread a belief that delayed His coming(because if we don't hasten, we delay). And this will be a great responsibility since Jesus said:

"For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned".

And He also said:

"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" (and He says this just before teaching a list of commandments, including how to pray, with the Lord's prayer)

On the other hand, if B is true, even if we teach to quicken the day of the Lord, we would make no harm: simply, those prayer will not be listened, as thousands of other "humanly-invented" prayer. But at least we will have some Scriptural basis to justify our attempt.

2 CONSIDERATIONS ON MATTHEW 24:22

Now first of I'll suggest you to read Boethius. The fact that God forecasted the future doesn't mean that our actions have no effect on the future, that would be naive to think and in contradiction with most Christian beliefs.

God forecasted our prayers for hastening the return of the Lord, and based on those he moved the date to the point He only knows it is. But this doesn't mean that our prayers are useless, on the CONTRARY they are extremely important and God has forecasted them from the very beginning. As well as He forecasted that we would have spread the Gospel in the whole world, thus hastening the Day of the Lord (Matthew 24:14)

Now, to answer @Retrobyter, are the elects in Matthew 24:22 the Hebrews?

Not at all, since Jesus uses other times the word elects and NEVER to refer to the Jews.

He is talking about the whole God's flock, and how those days would be shortened in the whole history timeline (and not the "7 years" as someone could suggest)

Look at Luke 18: 1-8

"Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. ² He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. ³ And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

⁴ “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, ⁵ yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

⁶ And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. ⁷ And will not God bring about justice for his CHOSEN ONES, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? ⁸ I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”"

Do you think that here Jesus is referring only to the Hebrews? NO; Nor he does in the other times He mentions the "elects" or "chosen ones".

Another example is Matthew 22:14:

"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Is Jesus talking about the Jews here? No. Nor he does in Matthew 24:22

****************************************************************************

ACTUALLY, it is worth considering the connection between Matthew 24:22 and Luke 18:1-8

In Matthew 24:22 Jesus say that thanks to the elects those days will be shortened, and in Luke 18:1-8 Jesus says that He will bring justice quickly to the elect who cry out day and night at Him (but when the Son of man will come, will He find faith on earth?). 

The first Christians knew this when they prayed "Maranatha", "come quickly Lord Jesus". But then when Church got temporal power the most important Truths got trampled on for centuries, as "no one can serve two masters".

 

Now, @Cletus, read carefully point 1 and ask yourself if you want to be responsible, in front of the Father for stopping the prayer that could hasten the fulfilment of His plan, in case you are wrong.

In case I'm wrong, I would have nothing to worry about spreading the prayer discussed here, cause it would cause no harm, and in the worst case will help us remembering that Heaven is our main goal.

As a last quote to demonstrate you without any doubt that our actions have a DIRECT effect on God timeline, here is yet another Scripture:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
 

Thus, everyone who contributed on spreading the Gospel, along history, contributed to the fulfilment of this prophecy, therefore with his cooperation contributed to speed up God's timeline. The same is true for the Lord's prayer.

Blessings siblings, and thanks for keeping alive the conversation.

 

 

 

 

[listener24]

12 hours ago, Cletus said:

How can God Know everything already and tell us all thats in the bible, and then we change it?  Would God not already know that too?  Your position is short changing God on being all knowing. 

EDIT: I've researched more, and I'd suggest to read not only Boethius but the main thoughts expressed by various thinker on this topic: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

It is definitely a topic that has been thoroughly discussed. We cannot be 100% sure about it from philosophical reasoning only, therefore, given its controversial nature, I'd re-read what I expressed in point 1 in my previous answer, and consider that, if doubting, it's still better praying that prayer, cause it will cause no harm. Not praying, if instead was useful, would be a great missed chance to be one of the contributors of God's plan.

Oh, and btw, don't worry, you are right, God has already forecasted that the missed contribution of all the ones who won't join will definitely not stop His plan. He has already forecasted that He will come and no-one on this topic has said otherwise, it would be trivial to imply so after all the explanation that has been given here and in the opening thread. It will just be a missed chance for them to speed it up.

 

Now, for those who feel lazy and don't want to reason on the link that I put above, so don't want to approach the problem from a philosophical perspective, let's approach it from a Scriptural perspective.

From the Scriptures, we already know from countless example that God is incredibly respectful of human free will, and that human decision to cooperate with him or not change the events, because God has decided to treat human not as brainless robots, as someone may think by misunderstanding a core concept in Christianity, but as sons and daughters.

For example, God forecasted Adam and Eve decision, BUT this don't mean that their decision To sin didn' t have any impact. If they didn' t decide To sin, the events would have been different (and there would have been a different future that God would have forecasted). Their decision did indeed impact the whole history.

In the same way, if God' s population on Canaan borders (book of Numbers) should have decided to listen to God, they wouldn' t have to spend 40 years in the desert. Their stubborness changed the timeline. And God knew from the beginning about their stubborness and the consequent timeline, but this doesn't excuse them from their responsibility.

All of this because God wants men to actively cooperate with His salvation plan, he doesn't want brainless robots as you are suggesting.

 

"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."

Thy Kingdom come.

Maranatha.
 

[Last Daze]

If God has fixed the times and seasons concerning His kingdom by His own authority, aren't they fixed?

• So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”  He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority."  Acts 1:6-7

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Cletus said:

Gonna have to go with Option B.  heres why...  If option A is correct that also implies that we have a part, and quite frankly God dont need our help.  All He needs is for someone to be available to use.  He does everything else.  To take this even further, all glory goes to God.  Not to us.  Another thing to consider with 2 peter 3:12 is that the word Hastening needs to really be looked into more deeply.  this word in greek can also mean to eagerly await.  I tend to think it means eagerly await. I am not saying thats wht it means because its written in stone.  You can think it means whatever you want, i dont want to convince you one way or the other.   I dont want to get into that with anyone on this website anymore.  maybe every now and again, but not right now, i am not feeling it, nothing personal to you.  just where i am at on words meanings.   Also,  Jesus said no man knows the day or the hour.  thats not just a day, thats a time, so the Father knows (just an example, not setting dates here) on july 22, 2019 at 3:15AM eastern standard time Jesus shall return.  

Furthermore I am not in the slightest concerned about stopping prayers because thats not, i say again, not what i said to begin with.  I am not interested in praying about that with all churches per the OP. If you want to, or anyone else, by all means, Do it.  Do it up and do it big.     Jesus will come again, just as He said.  Even if we all got together globally and prayed Jesus dont come back.  Gods will is going to happen on earth as it is in heaven.  Nothing is going to be stopped, or Hindered regardless of prayer.  also from experience I have learned you can pray about something all you want, if its not Gods will, it aint going down.  The Book says the days will be shortened for the elects sake, people want to interject it may mean how many days, or whatever.  No.  The book says a time, and times and a half time.  this is specific, if studied, to the number of the days.... which will be shortened. 

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

this scripture above you quoted, it just gives a timeline.  it dont say we can hurry it up. 

How can God Know everything already and tell us all thats in the bible, and then we change it?  Would God not already know that too?  Your position is short changing God on being all knowing. 

Shalom, Cletus.

I can understand your confusion. Those last two questions are important. "How can God KNOW everything already and tell us all that's in the Bible, and then we change it?'

We DON'T "change" anything from HIS perspective, but HE DOESN'T TELL US EVERYTHING!

This is similar to how the Calvinists view who can be "saved" and who cannot. While it may be true that God knows who will be "saved" and who won't be, that's not information that He shares with US! He tells us, "whosoever believeth" and reserves the knowledge of "chosen before the foundation of the world" for Himself.

From our point of view, asking Him to bring the Messiah Yeshua` back soon can be acknowledged and answered by Him and does NOT interfere with His foreknowledge of when the Messiah shall return! Ironically, it ENHANCES the time when He shall send the Messiah back! If you prefer, look at it like this: Praying for the Messiah's soon return shows God that we're thinking about the Messiah's Return and about His King, demonstrating to God that we are truly thinking of His best interest, a sure sign of our love for Him!

[listener24]

22 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If God has fixed the times and seasons concerning His kingdom by His own authority, aren't they fixed?

• So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”  He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority."  Acts 1:6-7

Hi brother, good question.

There are many ways to answer this question and you can find already some good points in post like @Retrobyter 's ones.

But I'll be happy to clarify even more, God willing.

Is anyone doubting God's authority here? No.

Consider this example, in form of a story.

*********************************

There is a very kind king, living in a city. Let's call it "Amazing city". He is very generous, and willing to share his wealth. Indeed, all the citizen of that city, receive daily gifts from him, and they have all they need.

Now, there is another city close to that one. The second city is lived by very poor citizens, and is led by an evil and a liar. Let's call it "Disastrous city".

The king is sad for the condition of his poor neighbours in the "Disastrous city". So he send some messengers, to invite the citizen of the poor city to leave their rotten one and join "Amazing city", under his just and merciful domain.

The righteous king instructs his servant to teach the poors: "if you wanna join our Amazing city, ASK the King to come and rescue you, and He will come. He will bring about justice to the ones who cry out at him day and night, he will shorten the days of their suffering in the "Disastrous city".

But the leader of "Disastrous city", being an evil liar, doesn't give up so easily, and he convinces his citizen that the leader of "Amazing city" is not really teaching them to ASK to be delivered, and he doesn't really care about their opinion, but consider them brainless slaves. He convinces them that "one day", the King of "Amazing city" will take them into his city, but meanwhile it's a sin to ask him to be rescued. 

The liar also teach to fight the messengers, and if possible kill them, by convincing that the messengers are telling lies about the King.

Finally, the liar create false messengers, that instead of the real "request" taught by the real messengers, invents countless of other useless requests to distract and divide them. Divide et impera. This, despite the fact that the King told the real messanger to say "do NOT waste words, do NOT keep on babbling, but ask me what I am teaching you, what is really important for your delivery: ask me to be rescued from the Disastrous city and to be under my Kingdom".

 

The real messengers, saddened by these events, and by the stubborness of the "Disastrous"'s citizen, come back to the Kingdom. One of them have this dialogue with the King:

Messenger: "King, you can do everything. Why don't you break into the "Disastrous" city with violence, and kidnap the poor citizens?"

King: "I COULD do that. But, in all my sovereignty, I decide to do something different. I decide to wait until the "Disastrous"'s citizen will understand our message, turn to me and ASK to receive, KNOCK so that it will be opened, SEEK to FIND. Because if they don't even understand this, they probably don't even desire to join us, and the king of their city can accuse us to not being righteous, by kidnapping his citizen who are not asking to change city."

Messenger: "Your Words are those of one who is righteous and respects free will. But what if the "Disastrous"'s citizen will never ask to be taken back?"

King: "Don't worry, I know the future. I know that at a certain point most of them will understand the message and gather together to ask to be taken back, and I fixed the date of that rescue on then. So everything will be fine, for the sake of those chosen one."

Messenger: "You are really a powerful, sovereign and respectful of free will king. I have one last question."

King: "Go on"

Messenger: "Why some of us are born in the Amazing city and some others in the Disastrous one?"

King: "See, there was a time in which everyone was borning in the Amazing city. But some of them decided to take their possessions, and leave. They moved to the disastrous city with their new king, thinking they could create a better place. They were wrong. BUT few of them realized they were wrong. That is why I am waiting for them to understand, and DECIDE to ask me to bring them back.

I told them a story, for them to understand this, but few did understand. Is called "the parable of the prodigal son".

Messenger: "I love that parable. The father is sovereign, yet he decide to respect free will, and take into account His children decisions, like a good husband would do with His bride. Glory to this just Father, now and forever"

 

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Now if this sounds familiar, is because there are at least 10 references of Gospel verses here.

But this demonstrate how sovereignty can be perfectly compatible with the decision to use this sovereignty to respect free well of other people.

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, listener24 said:

Hi brother, good question.

There are many ways to answer this question and you can find already some good points in post like @Retrobyter 's ones.

But I'll be happy to clarify even more, God willing.

Is anyone doubting God's authority here? No.

Consider this example, in form of a story.

There's certainly no harm done in praying for and eagerly anticipating His return.

• Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.  And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.  1 John 3:2-3