Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Sorry, but we must rely upon scriptural evidence

I'm all ears.  Please explain how what I said wasn't scriptural.

[missmuffet]

23 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Escape =/= pretrib rapture

Explain with scripture please.

[Quasar93]

9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Precisely.  I can agree with that.  Here is the last:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

Yes, you quoted Zech.9:14, which is the prophetic time frame of Jesus second coming, when He will figyht the battle of Armageddon against the two beasts, i.e. the Antichrist, the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations, described in Rev.19:11-21.

Seven years prior to Jesus second Coming, is another reference to the trumpet call of God, when Jesus comes of Hid Church, in 1 Thess.4:16:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

 

Quasar93
 

 

 

 

[Quasar93]

9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I didn't put words in your mouth.  I asked you a question.  You referenced a passage that had nothing to do with the sounding of a trumpet and then excluded the entire OT with this post:

Since the last trumpet of God isn't clarified in the NT, and you exclude the OT, and then refer to a passage that has no trumpet, what other choices are there?

The new covenant is in the OT.  Pentecost is in the OT and quoted in Acts.  Do you realize how many OT quotes are in the NT?  Dispensationalism is not your friend.  There is no "church age".  There is a point in time when the new covenant began.  The new covenant is eternal.

You labor under false pretenses.  The New Covenant was prophecied in Jer.31:31-34 and was not fulfilled until so done by Jesus, as recorded in Lk.22:20, through His shed blood and death on the cross.  Not before.  Pentecost took pace in the NT, recorded in Acrs 2:1-3.  It was the foundation of the Church.  None of which took place anywhere in the OT.  I teach from the Bible, not dispensationalism.  As for the New Covenant theology, the Bible DOES NOT teach any such thing as the Church being Israel.  FYI, I am a qualified Bible teacher, let me see the Scriptures you base your claims on.

 

Quasar93

[Quasar93]

15 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I totally believe in the pre- tribulation Rapture and it's seen in many places in scripture.

But here's one thing that's never been explained to my satisfaction.

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. [emphasis mine]

Taken in context to whom Jesus is talking to, I'm wondering what this verse is telling us?

Anyone? Anyone?

Jesus had just given His Olivet Discourse to a Israeli crowd that had gathered to hear Him.  The context of His message was an amlification of Dan.9:27, covering the final 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation.  His remarkwas specifically addressed to Israel, because the Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit/fulfillment of the New Covenant, had not yet arrived, nor taken place yet, according to JN.7:39 AND lK.22:20, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

 

 As such, Jesus remark in: Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man:" Is being counted worthy of escaping the tribulation, He told them about in His Olivet Discourse, through belief and trust in Him, that He was/is who and what He said He was/is, the Son of God, who will give whoever believes in Him, eternal life, He promised, in Jn.3:16.

 

Quasar93     

Edited December 2, 2017 by Quasar93

[Quasar93]

12 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I will argue no further.

I will just state that one cannot have a very good understanding of anything in isolation. To grasp the NT one must know the OT. When the disciples taught every Sabbath after our Lord ascended, they used the Torah, and slowly added letters and epistles that later became the NT.

God gave us this: HIS-STORY. It is complete and relevant - all of it. Yeshua, THE WORD made sure that the words we need are included and and not controversial or of any private interpretation. None are obsolete. No doctrine can stand against Yahweh and what His WORD reveals. The Truth of Yahweh is revealed by Holy Spirit thru the understanding of what He said and what He meant. It is not complicated; anyone may understand it clearly.

God gave us His story in the OP also.  As you know, opinion is of no value at all when attempting to field an argument against the Scriptures that refute the views you hold to.

 

Quasar93

[Quasar93]

23 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The Church has departed before the seven year tribulation and the book of Revelation. I think those who go in the rapture of the Church will be blessed.

Amen!

 

Quasar93

[missmuffet]

2 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Amen!

 

Quasar93

One thing I have always wondered Quasar. Do you think that God will have an angel escort each and everyone of us to be with Him at the rapture? To make sure we get there safely because Satan isn't going to like it.

[Quasar93]

22 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

One thing I have always wondered Quasar. Do you think that God will have an angel escort each and everyone of us to be with Him at the rapture? To make sure we get there safely because Satan isn't going to like it.

LOL.  I really don't believe that will take place at the time Jesus makes a personl visit for that occasion Himself, in 1 Thess.4:16-17.  However, that is a fact when believers die physically, and an angel takes the spirit/soul of that person to Jesus, in heaven.  Such as illustrated in Lk.16:19-24.

 

Quasar93

[Diaste]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:06 PM, missmuffet said:

I am a pretribulation believe because that is what the Bible tells me. But be prepared there are many on Worthy who are not and will debate it to the end

Only because it's a false doctrine will we debate it to the last breath.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

In any case, no matter when the 'rapture' occurs, we will meet the Lord in the air. This 'meeting in the air' does not prove timing. The ignored text of Matt 24 does. Rev 19 does not prove 'believers return' with the Lord to earth. The armies of the Lord in Rev 19 are likely angels and not the elect. 

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

Then I wonder why Jesus said the 'rapture' (gathering of the elect) happens after great tribulation and in conjunction with His return to earth? Matt 24:30-31.

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
While this is true, the act of deliverance does not prove timing. Matt 24:30-31 does prove the timing of the only comprehensive outline of the end of the age extant in all of scripture. All exegesis of every related end of the age passage from any prophet or apostle must fall under the outline given by the Lord of all.
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

No. 1 Cor 15:50-54 says nothing about secrecy. That is a false premise. There isn't anything about 'instant' either. It's more a sudden occurrence, a new condition that has not previously existed. It's a subtle distinction which is why I suppose most do not realize this.

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

No matter when the 'rapture' occurs it's imminent. Since we cannot know the day or the hour of the 'rapture' it's imminent right now or in a hundred years. It's imminent after any event at any time. "Imminence' is a made up doctrine born of rationalizations and false hopes.

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

True. Believers will go through great tribulation. Great tribulation is a time period within the last week and is incorrectly equated with the 70th week and the wrath of God.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
Again, Jesus' return is imminent no matter when it occurs. Since we cannot know the day or the hour, the return of Jesus is imminent 24/7/365. "Imminence' in no way proves when that imminence is imminent.
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

This has to be the weakest argument the wolves advance. Proving a negative? How does one prove something does not exist? What actual evidence exists that proves the 'church' is absent? Any explicit scriptural testimony? No, there is not.

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

This is just more howling of the wolves. Jesus says, in the only outline of the end of the age in all of scripture, in Matt 24, which is always ignored by the wolves as it refutes their snarling lies, the gathering of the elect occurs in conjunction with His return, to wit:

²⁹ IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Since the above is the word of the Lord, and the gathering of the elect is specified, and that gathering is specified as occurring only after tribulation and after the sign of Jesus' coming, and after the whole earth see Jesus coming in the clouds, and there is no 'rapture' mentioned by Jesus before 'the tribulation of those days'; in the only outline of the end of the age in all of scripture, in the words of the Almighty God, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the 'rapture' cannot occur before 'the tribulation of those days'.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html