Did God "needed" the original sin?

[Guest]

Right, but it didn't have to be Adam or Eve. It could have been one of their offspring. Someone had to make the choice to disobey GOD for sure, but the choice was the individual's otherwise there is no free will. GOD's foreknowledge does not mandate who does what, HE just knows who does.

[listener24]

30 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

Someone had to make the choice to disobey GOD for sure

You see, @shiloh357 and @ayin jade? 

You seemed so surprised that I heard the sentence that original sin was "necessary" somewhere.

You was surprised and wondering where did I heard that, maybe from Mormons? (whose beliefs I barely know) 

I personally don't believe original sin was necessary (contrary to the quote above: "somone HAD to do it "for sure""), but here in the quote above you have a demonstration that this is a common belief, not only among "mormons". Therefore, it's worth talking about it and thanks @Rick_Parker for bringing it in a form maybe easier to understand than my starting thread.

@Marilyn C maybe you'd be interested in reading this too.

According to "other one":

35 minutes ago, other one said:

We had to get the knowledge of good and evil from somewhere

I don't know if @other one means that in the sense it was necessary, like @Rick_Parker said, for us to get the knowledge, or if he recognizes that God could have had many other ways to give us the knowledge of good and evil without any sin.

In fact, the Scriptures describes how did we get that, but they don't exclude that God could have used other ways with time if men should stay obedient. Thinking that sin was the only way, I think is speculation, if not even glorification of sin.

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by listener24

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

32 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

It wasn't "required" of Adam, otherwise there wouldn't have been free will. But GOD knew he would since before time.

They were deceived by the serpent (is it the devil?) to eat from the forbidden fruit. And the serpent was clever than them, that is why they were deceived.

"Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”" - Genesis 3:1

 

I believe this is just to show us how stubborn and naive we all are... They could eat the whole garden, just one (ONE) fruit was forbidden and yet they did it.

 

Today we are free to do whatever pleases God in Christ Jesus, and still some insist in doing exactly the things that will cause them harm, and not just to them, but to other people as well.

And if you need help, you can cry to the Lord and it will be given to you... And still, only a few are doing that.

"And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." - Matthew 21:22

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, listener24 said:

@shiloh357@ayin jade

You seemed so surprised that I heard the sentence that original sin was "necessary" somewhere.

No, I said it was unscriptural.  I never said I was surprised.  I said that whoever made that claim was not basing it on a sound interpretation of Scripture.   What I also agreed with Jade about is that the reason it is claimed to be necessary had the ring of Mormon doctrine.

Probably need to go back and frame my comments correctly before assigning something to me that is incorrect.

[listener24]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, I said it was unscriptural.  I never said I was surprised.  I said that whoever made that claim was not basing it on a sound interpretation of Scripture.   What I also agreed with Jade about is that the reason it is claimed to be necessary had the ring of Mormon doctrine.

Probably need to go back and frame my comments correctly before assigning something to me that is incorrect.

You are right on this point. Sorry that I attributed you and @ayin jade surprise even if it wasn't the sense of your comment

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by listener24

[Guest]

2 hours ago, listener24 said:

You see, @shiloh357 and @ayin jade? 

You seemed so surprised that I heard the sentence that original sin was "necessary" somewhere.

You was surprised and wondering where did I heard that, maybe from Mormons? (whose beliefs I barely know) 

I personally don't believe original sin was necessary (contrary to the quote above: "somone HAD to do it "for sure""), but here in the quote above you have a demonstration that this is a common belief, not only among "mormons". Therefore, it's worth talking about it and thanks @Rick_Parker for bringing it in a form maybe easier to understand than my starting thread.

@Marilyn C maybe you'd be interested in reading this too.

According to "other one":

I don't know if @other one means that in the sense it was necessary, like @Rick_Parker said, for us to get the knowledge, or if he recognizes that God could have had many other ways to give us the knowledge of good and evil without any sin.

In fact, the Scriptures describes how did we get that, but they don't exclude that God could have used other ways with time if men should stay obedient. Thinking that sin was the only way, I think is speculation, if not even glorification of sin.

 

That's not what I meant at all. Sin did not "Have to" happen. Adam and Eve could have procreated and their offspring procreated forever without sinning. What I meant was that since GOD had seen that Eve would sin, that HE foreknew it. HE foreknew that sin would come into the World, that is why HE became Jesus Christ HIS Son to overcome the sin of the World. And since HE foreknew it, sin was going to occur. But it didn't have to, Man chose to out of their own free will. You are trying to say that there was no free will when it came to the original sin, when it was a choice that Eve made. It doesn't seem like you really understand the concept of free will. It's like GOD foreknew that a Roman soldier would strike Christ in the face, but it didn't have to be the one that actually did it. He chose to. It could have been another soldier, any soldier. GOD just foreknew that someone would choose to and which one would do it. Just as GOD foreknew that the Roman Governor of Jerusalem would sentence Christ to die on the Cross, it didn't have to be Pontius Pilate but could have been someone else if they were Governor but GOD foreknew that it would be Pilate who would choose to do it. No one forced him, he chose to out of his own free will. GOD just foreknew that it would happen but didn't cause it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said:

They were deceived by the serpent (is it the devil?) to eat from the forbidden fruit. And the serpent was clever than them, that is why they were deceived.

"Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”" - Genesis 3:1

 

I believe this is just to show us how stubborn and naive we all are... They could eat the whole garden, just one (ONE) fruit was forbidden and yet they did it.

 

Today we are free to do whatever pleases God in Christ Jesus, and still some insist in doing exactly the things that will cause them harm, and not just to them, but to other people as well.

And if you need help, you can cry to the Lord and it will be given to you... And still, only a few are doing that.

"And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." - Matthew 21:22

Adam and Eve were not beasts of the field. There ruled over the beasts of the field. The Scripture you quoted just states that the serpent was more cunning than the beasts that Adam and Eve ruled over and that Eve got fooled into questioning the LORD.

[other one]

3 hours ago, listener24 said:

You see, @shiloh357 and @ayin jade? 

You seemed so surprised that I heard the sentence that original sin was "necessary" somewhere.

You was surprised and wondering where did I heard that, maybe from Mormons? (whose beliefs I barely know) 

I personally don't believe original sin was necessary (contrary to the quote above: "somone HAD to do it "for sure""), but here in the quote above you have a demonstration that this is a common belief, not only among "mormons". Therefore, it's worth talking about it and thanks @Rick_Parker for bringing it in a form maybe easier to understand than my starting thread.

@Marilyn C maybe you'd be interested in reading this too.

According to "other one":

I don't know if @other one means that in the sense it was necessary, like @Rick_Parker said, for us to get the knowledge, or if he recognizes that God could have had many other ways to give us the knowledge of good and evil without any sin.

In fact, the Scriptures describes how did we get that, but they don't exclude that God could have used other ways with time if men should stay obedient. Thinking that sin was the only way, I think is speculation, if not even glorification of sin.

 

I have learned to trust Gods decision of how to do things.    We will be judging angels from a position of once being sinners....   much the way they are......    so we are truly a jury of their peers..

Only a Just God would go to that trouble.

[listener24]

6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

That's not what I meant at all. Sin did not "Have to" happen. Adam and Eve could have procreated and their offspring procreated forever without sinning. What I meant was that since GOD had seen that Eve would sin, that HE foreknew it. HE foreknew that sin would come into the World, that is why HE became Jesus Christ HIS Son to overcome the sin of the World. And since HE foreknew it, sin was going to occur. But it didn't have to, Man chose to out of their own free will.

1

I'm glad that you clarified your position. In the future, you could use a more precise terminology. Because differently from your clarification here above, the sentence right below is at least ambiguous:

9 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Right, but it didn't have to be Adam or Eve. It could have been one of their offspring. Someone had to make the choice to disobey GOD for sure, but the choice was the individual's otherwise there is no free will.

 

Nobody HAD to make the choice to disobey. Not adam and eve, nor their offspring, nor nobody else. That sentence is simply wrong, regardless the correct following sentence that the choice was individual. I am glad that, indeed, you corrected by saying:

6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Sin did not "Have to" happen.

This sentence, which I consider right, is the negation of the previous one above. In fact, basic logic tells us that if someone affirms "someone had to sin", that is another way of saying "sin had to happen", because of the basic principle that sin happens when someone sins. Luckily, you corrected with "sin DID NOT have to happen".

6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

You are trying to say that there was no free will when it came to the original sin, when it was a choice that Eve made.

Can you tell me where did I've ever tried to say that?

On this forum and in my posts in this thread, I've always defended the compatibility between foreknowledge and free will. I've defended not only in posts, but even in a couple of questions I opened.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/215549-do-prayers-have-no-practical-effect-since-the-father-knows-the-future/ (read the description)

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/215434-an-unprecedented-event-would-you-join-this/ (here in particular, some users seem to confuse the simple concept of compatibility between free will and foreknowledge, even when they don't confuse it in the above question)

And in this same question I've defended free will:

9 hours ago, listener24 said:

I personally don't believe original sin was necessary

So what you say above about what you think I'm trying to say, comes really out of the blue

6 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Just as GOD foreknew that the Roman Governor of Jerusalem would sentence Christ to die on the Cross, it didn't have to be Pontius Pilate but could have been someone else if they were Governor but GOD foreknew that it would be Pilate who would choose to do it. No one forced him, he chose to out of his own free will. GOD just foreknew that it would happen but didn't cause it.

This is completely correct. I've never doubt it, and I'm happy you are aware of these basic concepts. However, this thread wasn't about foreknowledge at all, foreknowledge and free will are taken for granted and considered the minimum level of understanding before facing the other topics discussed in the opening thread, which are something further.

Edited December 28, 2017 by listener24

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, listener24 said:

Thanks Marylin for understanding what the question was about, and its purpose, in the first place.

Here lies the core of the question. When you said "factored", do you mean it was necessary for His plans, or that even if men wouldn't have sin, it would have been perfectly fine (even better) for His plan? I believe the latter, but wanted to be sure.

This is a very interesting perspective. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but yours is interesting and makes more sense than the others who talk about "right number of conversions to reach".

On your point 3, my idea is that the body of Christ will be ready again only when we'll come back on ASKING (Matthew 7:7, John 16:24) for God's deliverance from evil, (instead of passively waiting for it and teaching others that we have only a passive role and should instead invent worldly prayers), with the prayer that God Himself taught us, the Lord's prayer and the last prayer in the Bible (Maranatha). I've already published dozens of sources of this idea which is not mine in other posts.

"Yet you have not called on me, Jacob" Isaiah 42:22

 

Hi listener,

You have brought up some good points there. Now as to the `factored in` we need to go back further than when God made man, for sin entered in God`s created order (heaven and earth) when Lucifer showed that he was not worthy to rule in the angelic realms. So let`s think of before God ever created anything  -angels or man, that God desired that `all things would come under Christ`s rule. (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

`...He (God the Father) made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth in Him...` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

God knew that no angelic being or man could rule righteously, but that did not stop Him from making these creatures, he gave them all an opportunity to show if they could, as God is just and not a dictator, and thus we see over centuries that man and angelic beings have not the capacity to rule righteously.

As to your second point - re: praying - you have hit the nail right on the head there bro. Let`s hear what the Apostle Paul says by the Spirit -

`...for a wide door and effective service has been opened to me, AND there are many adversaries.` (1 Cor. 16: 9)

This is a great topic which I will speak further on in the future.

regards, Marilyn.