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KiwiChristian

Was mary "full of grace"?

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On 1/11/2018 at 2:49 PM, KiwiChristian said:

I've searched through many different translations of the mainstream bible for 'full of grace', and nowhere is Mary called that. She is told by the angel that she is 'favoured by god', or has 'found favour in god's eyes'. So? David was favoured in god's eyes. At one time Saul was favoured in God's eyes. Samuel was favoured in God's eyes. All Christians are favoured in God's eyes. Luke 1:18 "kai eiselthōn pros autēn eipen kecharitōmenē Kyrios meta sou eulogēmenē sy en gynaixin"

The phrase, "full of grace," in Greek is "plaras karitos," and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament. Neither one is in reference to Mary.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation, it is Stephen who is full of grace.  We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase, "full of grace," does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom" along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary?
 

God declared Mary highly favored, which means grace filled. 
That's enough for me. 

 

 Luke 1

χαριτόω (charitoō)

Strong: G5487

GK: G5923

to favor, visit with favor, to make an object of favor, to gift, Eph. 1:6; pass. to be visited with free favor, be an object of gracious visitation, Lk. 1:28

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10 hours ago, Rut-Ro said:

God declared Mary highly favored, which means grace filled. 
That's enough for me. 

 

 Luke 1

χαριτόω (charitoō)

Strong: G5487

GK: G5923

to favor, visit with favor, to make an object of favor, to gift, Eph. 1:6; pass. to be visited with free favor, be an object of gracious visitation, Lk. 1:28

 

TERRIBLE translation. 

 

I expect its been through the hands of the catholic organisation.

 

the correct word is "kecharitōmenē" or "εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος".

 

This means " I favor, bestow freely on"

 

Notice that the term "full of grace" IS mentioned in the Bible, but NOT for mary.

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12 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

 

TERRIBLE translation. 

 

I expect its been through the hands of the catholic organisation.

 

the correct word is "kecharitōmenē" or "εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος".

 

This means " I favor, bestow freely on"

 

Notice that the term "full of grace" IS mentioned in the Bible, but NOT for mary.

The anti-Catholic bias being unnecessary, I would wonder how any Christian who is saved by grace arguing Mary, the human source for the deliverer from sin that was the means by which God delivered his grace to the world, would not be full of God's grace so as to be worthy of the job. 

Deal with it. Or don't. But don't attempt to argue Mary was less than what God intended of her. And just for your edification being you clearly lack this knowledge, names are capitalized. Therefore it is Mary. 

You're not really capable of discussing the mother of God, which isn't a Catholic thing, when you don't respect her by name first. 

 

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10 hours ago, Rut-Ro said:

The anti-Catholic bias being unnecessary, I would wonder how any Christian who is saved by grace arguing Mary, the human source for the deliverer from sin that was the means by which God delivered his grace to the world, would not be full of God's grace so as to be worthy of the job. 

Deal with it. Or don't. But don't attempt to argue Mary was less than what God intended of her. And just for your edification being you clearly lack this knowledge, names are capitalized. Therefore it is Mary. 

You're not really capable of discussing the mother of God, which isn't a Catholic thing, when you don't respect her by name first. 

 

oh no! i cant beleive you played the "anti catholic" label! LOL!

 

can i play the "anti Christian" label using the same criteria you do?

 

"worthy of the job"?!

NONE of us are worthy of ANYTHING but hell.

 

i see you have not addressed what i posted. instead comes the ad homien attacks.

anti-Christian attacks being unnecessary, the fact remains despite your failed human reasoning, the words "full of grace" being attributed to mary is anti-Biblical.

 

mary was a sinner just like you and me.yes, she was favoured by God and praise God she was blessed AMONG women. but she was never blessed ABOVE women.

 

 

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On 1/11/2018 at 7:49 PM, KiwiChristian said:

I've searched through many different translations of the mainstream bible for 'full of grace', and nowhere is Mary called that. She is told by the angel that she is 'favoured by god', or has 'found favour in god's eyes'. So? David was favoured in god's eyes. At one time Saul was favoured in God's eyes. Samuel was favoured in God's eyes. All Christians are favoured in God's eyes. Luke 1:18 "kai eiselthōn pros autēn eipen kecharitōmenē Kyrios meta sou eulogēmenē sy en gynaixin"

The phrase, "full of grace," in Greek is "plaras karitos," and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament. Neither one is in reference to Mary.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation, it is Stephen who is full of grace.  We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase, "full of grace," does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom" along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary?
 

If your quoting the CARM article you already have your answer there :D

https://carm.org/mary-full-grace-and-luke-128

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1 hour ago, KiwiChristian said:

What do you mean IF? You should know if i am or not

I know you are - just wondering why you didn't provide a citation but rather presented it as your own words? 

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Luke 1:28,And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

She was blessed among women, not above all women. She also needed a saviour as we all do, (Luke 1:47).

She was highly favoured, "ENDUED" with grace, not filled with grace. Only here and in  Ephesians 1:6, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Endued, to invest or endow with a gift, quality or faculty. 

 

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Mary:

Do not worship Mary.

Look to Holy Scripture in the Holy bible for your answers.

 

 

Luke 11:27,28

 

Keeping the Word

27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”

Luke 11:28 Christ Jesus answered

28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

 

Matthew 12:48-50

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

But the Catholics are literally lifting Mary up as a Goddess and NOWHERE in the Holy Bible  does it mention for us to do so, if anything it warns us NOT to do so.

 

John 2:4

Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”

 

To put Mary as the Mother of God is false, because of the FACT that Christ Jesus existed before His incarnation, before He became flesh. Johns gospel starts with:

 

John 1

The Eternal Word

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He (Christ Jesus) was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

John 1:-2

The Eternal Word

 He (Christ Jesus) was in the beginning with God.

 

Christ Jesus is not a creature He crated Creatures, All things were made by HIM.(including Mary.)

John 1:3

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

 

Everything in the MADE category,  HE made.

 

So their are two aspects to the Lord Christ Jesus, He was human, but He was also God in the flesh.

Well here is the thing, well Mary was only His mother humanly speaking, just of the flesh, that's why even when they called Christ Jesus the son of David, because Christ Jesus was of David according to the flesh.

 

Romans 1-3

concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

 

Matthew 22:45

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

 

Romans 1: 4

and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

 

What the Gospel are showing  here in the holy bible is that Christ Jesus was God in the flesh, so He is ABOVE David, He is Above Abraham He is ABOVE Mary, That's why Mary called the Lord her Savior.

 

Luke 1:46-47

46 And Mary said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

 

Someone who is a sinner is in NEED of a SAVIOR, because He will saves us from our sins, the Holy bible says.  So we know that Mary was sinner,she was a wonderful christian lady, a good person, she was highly favored , blessed among women, but she was NOT perfect. She was human non the less and sinned and was in need of a Savior.

Not only that but Mary offered a sin offering for herself in Luke ch2:21,22

 

Luke 2:21

 

21 And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child,[a] His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

 

Jesus Presented in the Temple

22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

So the Holy bible says the days of -her- purification according to the laws of Moses, through the offerings where over. Mary was in need of a Savior, she was not sinless, Mary was not God . She was a great woman, but never was she to be worshiped as a goddess or anything else.

So you may ask, where is this Mary worship/goddess worship coming from?

Look at Jeremiah chapter 7.

In this passage she is referred to the queen of heaven that they are worshiping.

Jeremiah 7:18

18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Now does this sound familiar?

Jeremiah 44:4

However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, “Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!”

 

Jeremiah 44:5

5 But they did not listen or incline their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense to other gods.
 
 

Isaiah 44:6

There Is No Other God

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

 

Jeremiah 44:7

5'But they did not listen or incline their ears to turn from their wickedness, so as not to burn sacrifices to other gods. 6Therefore My wrath and My anger were poured out and burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, so they have become a ruin and a desolation as it is this day.

 

Jeremiah 44:16,17

16 "As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we will not listen to you!
17 But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.
 
So they are burning incense to the queen of heaven. that's what they do in the RCC, they burn incense.
 

Jeremiah 44:18

18 But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.”

 

Jeremiah 44:19

19 The women also said, “And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’ permission?

 

Jeremiah 44:25

25 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’

 

Jeremiah 44:26

26 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, all Judah who dwell in the land of Egypt: ‘Behold, I have sworn by My great name,’ says the Lord, ‘that My name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, “The Lord God lives.”

 

Jeremiah 44:27

27 Behold, I will watch over them for adversity and not for good. And all the men of Judah who are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, until there is an end to them.
 
****    Listen to this   "quote"   from Pope Francis:   ****
 
“Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good…Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
 
So the Pope say we all have our own ideas of good and evil, and so all we have to do, is do what we think is good.
 
 
What about the absolute RIGHT and WRONG that GOD has set FORTH in the Holy Bible?

Proverbs 14:12

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

 

So just following what you think is good, the bible says the end thereof is the way of death, if you just go with what just seems right and not go with what the bible says is right.

 

Proverbs 3:7-8

Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
It will be health to your flesh,[a]
And strength[b] to your bones.

 

Proverbs 12:15

15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
But he who heeds counsel is wise.

 

So a fool always thinks that he is right the bible says, and the Pope Francis says hey, just go with it... but then we wouod be living a life of foolishness.

 

Proverbs 16:2

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
But the Lord weighs the spirits.

 

People like to justify their own actions, but that doe not mean it is right in gods eyes.

 

 

Proverbs 21:2

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
But the Lord weighs the hearts.

 

Proverbs 30:12

12 There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes,
Yet is not washed from its filthiness.

 

So the Word says that even the filthiest of generations thinks they are pure in their own eyes.

 

Isaiah 5:21

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!

 

We can't just trust ourselves, no we go with the WORD of GOD to tell us what is right and what is wrong.

 

Proverbs 28:26

26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

 

 

Jeremiah 17:9

“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

 

But pope Francis says, as long as you think it right, just do it...

 Pope Francis also said that Atheist can be "precious allies" allies in the building of a peaceful coexistence between people and in the careful protection of creation and goes on to say that atheist who do good are redeemed.

 

But the bible call atheist fools:

Psalm 14:1

Folly of the Godless, and God’s Final Triumph

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.

14 The fool has said in his heart,
There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.

 

So according to Pope Francis if even the athirst is going to heaven

then why should we even share to gospel of Christ Jesus in order to be redeemed?

 

Romans 3:22-24

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

 

But according to pope Francis, anybody can be redeemed and without even coming into repentance through  Gods splan of Mercy and Grace through Christ Jesus.

 

Romans 3:25,26

in christ Jesus... 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ Jesus.

 

***the redemption is through faith in His BLOOD, the Blood of Christ Jesus.***

 

 

Acts 4:12

12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

John 14:6 Christ Jesus SAID:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

but pope Francis says we are all redeemed, we are all saved....

For full you tube vedio  sermon on the subject matter: go to you tube:

 

Pope Francis and His Lies: False Prophet EXPOSED! FULL MOVIE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 
 
Edited by 1to3

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They pronounced curses on anyone who would deny it.   Paul the Apostle, in contrast, pronounced a double curse on anyone who preached a gospel different from the all sufficiency of Christ's death, burial and resurrection to save us from our sins. Galatians 1:6-9 puts a double curse on this "other gospel" of transubstantiation for salvation.   5. Before Christ ascended to heaven, He promised to come to us during the Church Age, NOT in the sacrifice of the MASS, but by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-18 as Comforter): "He shall give you another Comforter ... even the Spirit of truth ... I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.” Note: Christ will return to earth a second time visibly in glory. This is what is meant by 1 Corinthians 11:26 "For as oftenas ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death TILL HE COME."   Note: This means that Christ does not come literally and visibly as the wafer in the mass, but to the air as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17.   6. At the Council of Constance in 1415 it was agreed to withold the cup from the congregation lest the wine be spilt. However this contradicts 1 Corinthians 11:25-29 where ALL Corinthian believers drank of the wine: "Whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup unworthily." v.27. Drinking the cup is mentioned six times in five verses. Transubstantiation is not a mystery, but an absurdity; not a difficulty but a contradiction.   Question: How then do we eat his flesh and drink his blood?   Answer: Through the WORD OF GOD.   John 6:63 "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."   John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh."   John 5:24 "He that heareth my Word and believeth on him that sent me, has everlasting life."   The scribes who knew Jeremiah 31:31-34, "I will put my law in their inward parts", and Jeremiah 15:16, "Thy words were found and I DID EAT THEM; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart", understood the idea of receiving God's Word into one’s inner being.   Peter got the message, while others planned to desert Jesus:   "Thou hast the WORDS of eternal life." John 6:68.   "Being born again ... by the WORD of God." 1 Peter 1:23-25.   Peter knew that Jesus was speaking about the WORD of God, and not about literal flesh and blood.   Question: If this doctrine of transubstantiation only arose in the 9th century, and if it is so necessary to Roman Catholic salvation, what happened to those who lived before the 9th century not believing this doctrine? Did they all go to hell?   Question: What about the thief on the cross who repented and never took the wafer? Did he go to hell?    No! Jesus said he went to paradise.
    • By KiwiChristian
      Many catholics are arrogant enough to say that THEY "gave" us the Bible.
      The catholic organisation mearly defined what IT would use as the Bible, NOT what the Bible was.
       
      Long before the council of hippo "gave us the bible", Origen, born A.D. 185 and died A.D. 254, named ALL the books of the Bible in his writings and  Eusebius, 270 A.D., lists ALL of the books of the NT.
       
      The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth.
       
      It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.
      God did not give councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today. A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church." Can we follow such reasoning?
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