Looking for some opinions

[JohnD]

On 1/15/2018 at 6:30 AM, Jaynee said:

Looking for some opinions/ bible info. Is Heaven a place where we will physically be? Or a place we will feel spiritually? 

Also - I'm aware the dead will sleep, until the coming of Jesus. I don't believe we go straight to Heaven. I believe we will all be judged at the same time. Although, the part I'm unsure about is, where will our minds and souls be during this time of "sleep"? And are the saved at peace during this time? 

My Grandmother has recently passed away, she was saved also. I suppose it's just made me wonder about these things a little more and spiritually where will she be at this moment ? If anywhere ? 

Thanks 

1. Opinions are a dime a dozen.

2. Bible info is the only truth about Heaven and how to get there (faith alone in Christ alone) and how we get there (in what form).

3. The dead (bodies) sleep until the coming of Jesus. And they actually decay after the short period of what appears to be sleep. Absent from the body / present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5). He's in heaven right now.

a) absent from the body meaning disembodied spirit.

b) The saints will return with Christ when he comes (Jude 6) and their bodies will rise first in that resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4).

Your grandmother is presently in heaven with Jesus in her spirit.

We are body soul and spirit beings (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

The confusion / error about our state after death comes from considering  only one aspect of our personal make up.

[inchrist]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

Christ does the will of the father

John 6:38King James Version (KJV)

³⁸ For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

The fathers will was for Christ to die; to be silenced; unconscious, "sleep"

1 Peter 3:18New International Version (NIV)

¹⁸ For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

The Greek word is zoopoieo, to impart life to make alive.

He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit.

The text clearly states giving life, NOT continuing alive.

The verb is a regular, active verb, in the passive voice; which means an action received.

Christ received life from God; Christ did not continue alive, but was made alive by the Spirit.

Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead.

To state Christ was immortal and continued living after death between his crucifixion and resurrected is a complete rejection of the whole plan of salvation, by declaring that Christ never was dead and never received the Spirit by which to bring Christ back to life; denying the will of the Father.

Edited January 22, 2018 by inchrist

[wingnut-]

8 minutes ago, inchrist said:

1 Peter 3:18New International Version (NIV)

¹⁸ For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

The Greek word is zoopoieo, to impart life to make alive.

He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit.

The text clearly states giving life, NOT continuing alive.

The verb is a regular, active verb, in the passive voice; which means an action received.

Christ received life from God; Christ did not continue alive, but was made alive by the Spirit.

 

First of all, I never claimed He did not die.  Second, look at the verse you posted, His flesh died, not His Spirit.  This is precisely what takes place for all those born again.

The biggest difference here is that we differ on the body being an earthly tent, a temporary dwelling.  You also are limiting what the soul truly is, to nothing more than a single qualifier as "air breather".  By doing so, you are making yourself the equivalent of a dog, rhino, elephant, or any other air breathing creature.  We are not like anything else in creation.

 

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

 

Now notice in the verse that God says, in OUR image, after OUR likeness.  Who do you think the OUR is?

This is the other reason we don't see eye to eye, because based on our past conversations, you don't believe Jesus is God.  You want to say He ceased to exist, for no matter how short of a time, this simply doesn't align with scripture in my view.

 

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

I appreciate the conversation, but at this point we are covering ground we have already covered, and I don't wish to continue in a circular argument.  My position has not changed, and I doubt yours has either, so probably best to leave it at that and allow the OP to go in the direction she wishes.

God bless

[ScottA]

On 1/15/2018 at 4:30 AM, Jaynee said:

Looking for some opinions/ bible info. Is Heaven a place where we will physically be? Or a place we will feel spiritually? 

Also - I'm aware the dead will sleep, until the coming of Jesus. I don't believe we go straight to Heaven. I believe we will all be judged at the same time. Although, the part I'm unsure about is, where will our minds and souls be during this time of "sleep"? And are the saved at peace during this time? 

My Grandmother has recently passed away, she was saved also. I suppose it's just made me wonder about these things a little more and spiritually where will she be at this moment ? If anywhere ? 

Thanks 

Good questions!

God is spirit. So heaven is spirit also. Which does not mean that it is less than the physical existence we have in the world, but rather the other way around, it is more. Much more. What is that like? We shall see. But I can tell you (from experience) it is like a dream that is more real than the world, but without evil.

As for the dead sleeping: It doesn't work that way. Time only exists in the world, and when we pass from here, time does not tick by until all have passed...because it doesn't tick at all in the eternal realm of God. So, just as the apostle Paul said that we pass from here "each in his own order", we are born in our own time and die in our own time and order...but we arrive in eternity...together. Which means, yes, we are all judged at the same time. But, not to fear, when you see the face of God, the judgement will have passed.

As for your Grandmother, Paul also said, "by no means do we proceed those who have fallen asleep" (and vice versa). Meaning, again, they have passed in their "own order" or time, but no time passes after they do, so when we too pass from here, we will meet them in the passing.

Edited January 22, 2018 by ScottA

[inchrist]

10 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

First of all, I never claimed He did not die.  Second, look at the verse you posted, His flesh died, not His Spirit.  This is precisely what takes place for all those born again.

Christ was quickened by the Spirit  and between his death and quickening no action is affirmed of him. None. Since the will is directly from the father.

There is no evidence you can bring forth showing Christ in "paradise", just a mere assumption.

Further you still need to deal with the fact of the Greek text not using commas in the famous line of Luke 23:43

 Now notice in the verse that God says, in OUR image, after OUR likeness.  Who do you think the OUR is

And nothing in the records given shows that man has an immortal soul when they die.

We are made in the image of God but we carry none of his attributes; why single immortality and not the rest of God's attributes like omnipresent or omnipotent?

 I appreciate the conversation, but at this point we are covering ground we have already covered, and I don't wish to continue in a circular argument.

For me it's about tangibility. There hasn't been a single verse brought forth that has shown tangible evidence of immortal souls.

Either the words like "bring" have been added in; the issues of a comma which the Greek text never uses. Replacing resurrection  with immortal soul doctrine with Paul teachings.

I appreciate the conversation and the manner in which youve done it.....but there is no tangibility and that is frustration.

 

 

 

[inchrist]

42 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

, you don't believe Jesus is God.  You want to say He ceased to exist, for no matter how short of a time, this simply doesn't align with scripture in my view.

 

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

 

It is true that I don't accept that but rather Christ is the image of the Father.

However I can still argue the position from a trinity perspective and call it the mystery of the trinity; that God is omnipotent to have a member of the trinity silenced; unconscious; "sleep" and brought back to consciousness. The very definition of omnipotence does not exclude such power nor limited beyond such power.

So yes it fits very much with scripture of ALmightyness

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

There is no evidence you can bring forth showing Christ in "paradise", just a mere assumption.

What do you think Christ meant then when He said to the good thief,

Luke 23:43

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

 

Quote

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise was Sheol, and Christ had to go to Sheol to free the righteous dead

1 Peter 3:19 

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

Whoops messed something up there, cant get rid of that second quote

Edited January 22, 2018 by TheMatrixHasU71

[TheMatrixHasU71]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Either the words like "bring" have been added in; the issues of a comma which the Greek text never uses. Replacing resurrection  with immortal soul doctrine with Paul teachings.

Completely irrelevant as no ancient scriptures ever used punctuation of any kind. If you are referring to the passage Verily I say unto thee, Today thou shalt be with me in paradise, Joyce Meyer (who believes Christ went to hell where demons tortured Him) used to push this nonsense about the comma, saying that the Scripture should have put the comma after "today". Note that Christ never spoke that way anywhere else in Scripture.

[inchrist]

34 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Completely irrelevant as no ancient scriptures ever used punctuation of any kind. 

Hardly irrelevant when we're relying on a translator who made the assumption of where the comma goes.

Hence you end up with two options.

Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Or 

Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The meaning of the text changes complexity. This is hardly tangible evidence for immortal soul.

What is irrelevant however; is bring up Joyce Meyer.

 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Impossible since scripture makes it clear the Spirit returns to God by two witness.

Eccl. 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And

Job34 :14  If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust

The Bible teaches this spirit and breath , is given for awhile to man, God calls his own, and depriving man of it, God calls gathering it to himself

 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

What purpose would Christ have going to hell to preach to damned souls under divine judgment? Their prohibition had passed, no gospel message can save them.

The preaching that was given to them was through Noah, who, by the power of the Holy Spirit, delivered to them the message of warning.

The preaching of Noah, was the preaching of Christ.

As for Prison allow scripture to interpret scripture

Isa. 61:1: The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he bath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.

Their days were limited to a hundred and twenty years; and their only way of escape from impending destruction was through the preaching of Noah. Gen. 6:3. That is the prohibition.

 

Paradise was Sheol, 

The grave is never called paradise.

 

 

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

27 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Hardly irrelevant when we're relying on a translator who made the assumption of where the comma goes.

Hence you end up with two options.

Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Or 

Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

As I already said, Jesus never spoke that way. 

The meaning of the text changes complexity. This is hardly tangible evidence for immortal soul.

What is irrelevant however; is bring up Joyce Meyer.

 

 

Impossible since scripture makes it clear the Spirit returns to God by two witness.

The soul returns to God yes but Christ had to go to Sheol first to free the righteous dead who died before Him. The righteous dead did not go to heaven before Christ since it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that anyone can get to heaven. Elijah and Enoch were the only two exeptions to this and that is likely because they will be the Two Witnesses of Revelation. 

Eccl. 12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And

Job34 :14  If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust

The Bible teaches this spirit and breath , is given for awhile to man, God calls his own, and depriving man of it, God calls gathering it to himself

 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

What purpose would Christ have going to hell to preach to damned souls under divine judgment? Their prohibition had passed, no gospel message can save them.

I just answered that. Christ was not preaching to the damned souls He was preaching to the righteous dead. Sheol has two compartments. One, Paradise (aka Abraham's Bosom, where those who were guaranteed a place in heaven went before Christ. Two, a prison for the damned to await judgment. 

The preaching that was given to them was through Noah, who, by the power of the Holy Spirit, delivered to them the message of warning.

The preaching of Noah, was the preaching of Christ.

NO, this has nothing to do with Noah

 

27 minutes ago, inchrist said:

As for Prison allow scripture to interpret scripture

Isa. 61:1: The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he bath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound. 

I just answered that

Their days were limited to a hundred and twenty years; and their only way of escape from impending destruction was through the preaching of Noah. Gen. 6:3. That is the prohibition.

 

 

The grave is never called paradise.