Legalism

[brakelite]

6 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

If you demand the seventh day Sabbath as a condition of salvation then you put yourself under the law.

Now hold on a wee second. That is misleading. I do agree with the above in the sense that if one thought Sabbath observance brought about his justification, then sure, he would be like the Galatians who considered their law-keeping as essential to being justified. But what of the believer after he is justified?  Does obedience, (or if you like submission to the authority of the Lord in day to day living) have any effect on salvation? What if we surrendered to someones authority over and above God's? What if we placed our own opinion and understanding of scripture over and above truth? What did Jesus say of those who kept the traditions of man, teaching them as doctrines all the while countermanding God's own authority? How far can we go our own way, doing our own thing, believing our own opinions, yielding to church/man's/popular opinion/governmental authority before our salvation is affected?

[Heleadethme]

11 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

advocate for Believers to be free men In Christ. “ whom the Son sets free , is free indeed”

Amen...yes!.......we serve the Lord in liberty.......as slaves to righteousness, but of our own free will.........like the Sabbath year when debts were cancelled and slaves were set FREE, some chose to remain with their masters out of LOVE, of their own free will, and their earlobes were pierced with an awl to seal the deal ( an allusion to the cross).  A wonderful picture of the difference between being under the Law and being under Christ.  

[brakelite]

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Rom 7:14.      For we all know that the law is spiritual: but I am CARNAL, sold under sin.

This ^^^^^^^^^ is Paul speaking of his life prior to his conversion. Later in Romans 8 he speaks of those who are dead in Christ...those who are no longer carnally minded....

⁶ For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

⁷ Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

⁸ So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

¹⁰ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

He says here that the carnal mind cannot obey God's laws. Which is what you correctly stated. But he added that we are not carnally minded of we have living in us the Spirit of Christ. Christ Himself abiding within writing His laws on our hearts...the very same laws that were written on the tables of stone. (Cor. 3:3). If the carnal mind cannot please God because he is unable to obey the law, surely the contrary is possible for those who are motivated by the holy Spirit of God living within? 

 

[brakelite]

7 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

I uphold Gods commandments but not the law of Moses.

Ummmm, I think you are going to have to explain the difference. God gives Moses tables of stone with commandments written with His own finger...are these the commandments of God or the law of Moses? Later God gave Moses verbal instructions which Moses wrote on paper ...are these the commandments of God or the law of Moses? Or are they both the commandments of God or both the law of Moses? Are we obligated to obey the commandments on stone, but not the ones on paper, or are we no longer obligated to obey any of them? Or all of them? 

esus said several times that the law would remain until heaven and earth pass. He also said that anyone not obeying that law, and teaching others to do likewise, would in the kingdom of heaven be called least. Looking as far into man’s future, the very verge of his horizon, Jesus assures us that until this point is reached the law will retain it’s authority so that none may suppose it was Jesus’ mission to abolish the precepts and principles of the law. So long as heaven and earth remain, so the principles of God’s holy law will also remain.

Why is it that Christians today are so averse to obedience? What is it about the commandments of the God they profess to love, that makes the commandments so odious? The apostle John didn’t have a problem with obedience. He said the commandments are not grievous. And Jesus said “if you love Me , keep My commandments”. The Ten Commandments are Jesus’ commandments. They are HIS. They are God's commandments. 

Are you aware that f there was to be any change to the law, it had to be affected before Calvary? When did the lawgiver change His law before He died? I read quite the opposite....that so long as earth and heaven remained, so His law would remain. Once Jesus ratified the new covenant with His blood, that covenant could not be altered, abrogated, or removed in the slightest. It is contended that the church changed the Sabbath...or that Jesus did....if this were the case, then it needed to be done prior to Calvary. 

 

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

Why is it that Christians today are so averse to obedience? What is it about the commandments of the God they profess to love, that makes the commandments so odious?

Truth is, we all know the answer to that question. Yahweh looks into the heart of the believer - I do hope He is not disappointed.

Although the Blood on the Mercy Seat atones for our sin, our lives will reflect our obedience or otherwise.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Justin Adams

[Wayne222]

7 hours ago, brakelite said:

Ummmm, I think you are going to have to explain the difference. God gives Moses tables of stone with commandments written with His own finger...are these the commandments of God or the law of Moses? Later God gave Moses verbal instructions which Moses wrote on paper ...are these the commandments of God or the law of Moses? Or are they both the commandments of God or both the law of Moses? Are we obligated to obey the commandments on stone, but not the ones on paper, or are we no longer obligated to obey any of them? Or all of them? 

esus said several times that the law would remain until heaven and earth pass. He also said that anyone not obeying that law, and teaching others to do likewise, would in the kingdom of heaven be called least. Looking as far into man’s future, the very verge of his horizon, Jesus assures us that until this point is reached the law will retain it’s authority so that none may suppose it was Jesus’ mission to abolish the precepts and principles of the law. So long as heaven and earth remain, so the principles of God’s holy law will also remain.

Why is it that Christians today are so averse to obedience? What is it about the commandments of the God they profess to love, that makes the commandments so odious? The apostle John didn’t have a problem with obedience. He said the commandments are not grievous. And Jesus said “if you love Me , keep My commandments”. The Ten Commandments are Jesus’ commandments. They are HIS. They are God's commandments. 

Are you aware that f there was to be any change to the law, it had to be affected before Calvary? When did the lawgiver change His law before He died? I read quite the opposite....that so long as earth and heaven remained, so His law would remain. Once Jesus ratified the new covenant with His blood, that covenant could not be altered, abrogated, or removed in the slightest. It is contended that the church changed the Sabbath...or that Jesus did....if this were the case, then it needed to be done prior to Calvary. 

 

Why are you adverse to the clear commandments of Jesus Apostles.  I don't get why some would disobey the Apostles but be under the law. It's like they really want to be old covenant and disregard the new covenant. The new covenant is founded on better promises. So sad the lack of biblical knowledge. My people are dest8fir a lack of knowledge. 

[Wayne222]

7 hours ago, brakelite said:

Ummmm, I think you are going to have to explain the difference. God gives Moses tables of stone with commandments written with His own finger...are these the commandments of God or the law of Moses? Later God gave Moses verbal instructions which Moses wrote on paper ...are these the commandments of God or the law of Moses? Or are they both the commandments of God or both the law of Moses? Are we obligated to obey the commandments on stone, but not the ones on paper, or are we no longer obligated to obey any of them? Or all of them? 

esus said several times that the law would remain until heaven and earth pass. He also said that anyone not obeying that law, and teaching others to do likewise, would in the kingdom of heaven be called least. Looking as far into man’s future, the very verge of his horizon, Jesus assures us that until this point is reached the law will retain it’s authority so that none may suppose it was Jesus’ mission to abolish the precepts and principles of the law. So long as heaven and earth remain, so the principles of God’s holy law will also remain.

Why is it that Christians today are so averse to obedience? What is it about the commandments of the God they profess to love, that makes the commandments so odious? The apostle John didn’t have a problem with obedience. He said the commandments are not grievous. And Jesus said “if you love Me , keep My commandments”. The Ten Commandments are Jesus’ commandments. They are HIS. They are God's commandments. 

Are you aware that f there was to be any change to the law, it had to be affected before Calvary? When did the lawgiver change His law before He died? I read quite the opposite....that so long as earth and heaven remained, so His law would remain. Once Jesus ratified the new covenant with His blood, that covenant could not be altered, abrogated, or removed in the slightest. It is contended that the church changed the Sabbath...or that Jesus did....if this were the case, then it needed to be done prior to Calvary. 

 

Why do you disobey the Apostles?

[Wayne222]

8 hours ago, brakelite said:

Now hold on a wee second. That is misleading. I do agree with the above in the sense that if one thought Sabbath observance brought about his justification, then sure, he would be like the Galatians who considered their law-keeping as essential to being justified. But what of the believer after he is justified?  Does obedience, (or if you like submission to the authority of the Lord in day to day living) have any effect on salvation? What if we surrendered to someones authority over and above God's? What if we placed our own opinion and understanding of scripture over and above truth? What did Jesus say of those who kept the traditions of man, teaching them as doctrines all the while countermanding God's own authority? How far can we go our own way, doing our own thing, believing our own opinions, yielding to church/man's/popular opinion/governmental authority before our salvation is affected?

You call following Jesus doing our own thing. And you do because you misunderstood scripture. The Sabbath is a day of rest if you keep the old covenant. Because under the old covenant you had to fulfill the law to obtain the promises given to Israel. The law is a schoolmaster until we have Christ himself. The Sabbath is a shadow of Christ. Christ gives us rest. The Sabbath could not really give you rest  because everyone has transgress the law. Only Christ can give you rest. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Why is it that Christians today are so averse to obedience? What is it about the commandments of the God they profess to love, that makes the commandments so odious?

Truth is, we all know the answer to that question. Yahweh looks into the heart of the believer - I do hope He is not disappointed.

 

why are we so adverse to obedience? If “ we all know the answer to that” please let me know the answer. I do not know how I can make it any clearer. I believe I said in my previous post that obedience and striving to keep the law were great things.How on earth does somebody misconstrue this to mean “odious”? Please explain.

[Blood Bought 1953]

Cobalt...I am relatively new here. How long have you been battling these guys?  Are they weak Believers that Paul said to put up with or do they cross the line and insist one can’t obtain salvation without observing the Sabbath on Saturday’s?