Just How Close is the RAPTURE?

[iamlamad]

On 9/29/2018 at 9:48 PM, enoob57 said:

good hermeneutics lead to a pre trib view...

This I agree with!

[Steve Conley]

On 9/29/2018 at 10:48 PM, enoob57 said:

good hermeneutics lead to a pre trib view...

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you mean the hermeneutics that J. N. Darby invented? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to believe and teach that God pours out His wrath upon His faithful GT servants who are martyred for Christ's name sake? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you, in desperation, to teach that the Greek word apostasia refers to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to teach that Matt 24 is not written to the church, even though it explicitly concerns the elect, a name by which the church is identified throughout the NT? Do you mean the hermeneutics that forces you to wrest countless Scriptures to maintain your fictitious eschatological system? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to engage in eisegesis, reading your bankrupt system into the text? Do you mean the hermeneutics that allows you to claim that when John, in spirit, was shown the throne of God in heaven that was referring to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that deserves a gold medal for their gymnastic performance?

Paul had something to say about the hermeneutics you use.

2Co 4:2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

A literal, historical, grammatical, and contextual hermeneutic will not yield a pretribulational model for the rapture. Only eisegesis and circular reasoning will lead you to believe that way. But you are not alone, most in the West have embraced escapist pretribulational teaching.

Your views will change when you see the Temple rebuilt, or witness the Beast in the Temple shewing himself to be God. If you miss all that, you will most certainly know that you were wrong when unexpectedly you are faced with the decision of taking the mark to save your physical life or being beheaded for Christ's name sake. If you take the mark, know that you will be eternally damned. Be faithful unto death and Christ will give you a crown of life.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Praise Jesus

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you mean the hermeneutics that J. N. Darby invented? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to believe and teach that God pours out His wrath upon His faithful GT servants who are martyred for Christ's name sake? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you, in desperation, to teach that the Greek word apostasia refers to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to teach that Matt 24 is not written to the church, even though it explicitly concerns the elect, a name by which the church is identified throughout the NT? Do you mean the hermeneutics that forces you to wrest countless Scriptures to maintain your fictitious eschatological system? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to engage in eisegesis, reading your bankrupt system into the text? Do you mean the hermeneutics that allows you to claim that when John, in spirit, was shown the throne of God in heaven that was referring to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that deserves a gold medal for their gymnastic performance?

Paul had something to say about the hermeneutics you use.

2Co 4:2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

A literal, historical, grammatical, and contextual hermeneutic will not yield a pretribulational model for the rapture. Only eisegesis and circular reasoning will lead you to believe that way. But you are not alone, most in the West have embraced escapist pretribulational teaching.

Your views will change when you see the Temple rebuilt, or witness the Beast in the Temple shewing himself to be God. If you miss all that, you will most certainly know that you were wrong when unexpectedly you are faced with the decision of taking the mark to save your physical life or being beheaded for Christ's name sake. If you take the mark, know that you will be eternally damned. Be faithful unto death and Christ will give you a crown of life.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Praise Jesus

Yes as in all things the truth revealed will be the happening... and as you say we will see. Proper hermeneutics yields the written material to the mind of the reader at to intent of that which was wrote... so all your points above are clearly a misunderstanding of what hermeneutic is...  you either have a proper hermeneutic and receive the reward of such or improper and miss intent of the writers purpose in the communication...

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Do you mean the hermeneutics that J. N. Darby invented? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to believe and teach that God pours out His wrath upon His faithful GT servants who are martyred for Christ's name sake? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you, in desperation, to teach that the Greek word apostasia refers to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to teach that Matt 24 is not written to the church, even though it explicitly concerns the elect, a name by which the church is identified throughout the NT? Do you mean the hermeneutics that forces you to wrest countless Scriptures to maintain your fictitious eschatological system? Do you mean the hermeneutics that causes you to engage in eisegesis, reading your bankrupt system into the text? Do you mean the hermeneutics that allows you to claim that when John, in spirit, was shown the throne of God in heaven that was referring to the rapture? Do you mean the hermeneutics that deserves a gold medal for their gymnastic performance?

Paul had something to say about the hermeneutics you use.

2Co 4:2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

A literal, historical, grammatical, and contextual hermeneutic will not yield a pretribulational model for the rapture. Only eisegesis and circular reasoning will lead you to believe that way. But you are not alone, most in the West have embraced escapist pretribulational teaching.

Your views will change when you see the Temple rebuilt, or witness the Beast in the Temple shewing himself to be God. If you miss all that, you will most certainly know that you were wrong when unexpectedly you are faced with the decision of taking the mark to save your physical life or being beheaded for Christ's name sake. If you take the mark, know that you will be eternally damned. Be faithful unto death and Christ will give you a crown of life.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Praise Jesus

Pretribers mean the hermeneutic that is clearly depicted in the bible. 

Pretribers mean the hermeneutics that the bible teaches: that those left behind at the pretrib rapture will indeed have to suffer through God's wrath. It is not His will, for His will would be for them to be ready for His pretrib coming and so escape His wrath. When God turns all fresh water into blood, that will affect those that love Jesus just as much as those that hate Jesus - BOTH will need water to drink. 

Pretribers dig deep and try to discover the intent of the Author. Their hermeneutic is to discover Paul's intent in using the word "apostasia." They KNOW that Paul's meaning is that the apostasia is the restrainer being "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin will be revealed. They understand that this compound word means a departure or departing. They also know that Paul DID NOT tell what is being departed from. They understand that as a compound word, it certainly can mean a spatial departing where a part of a whole group is moved spatially to another location, while the rest of the group is left standing. Their hermeneutic is is knowing WHO the restrainer really is - that is who Paul tells us it is. They understand WHY Paul wrote, "and now you know..." They also understand that the Day of the Lord is a DARK day of judgment, where God will destroy the world - and therefore CANNOT be the day of the rapture. They understand the rapture will come BEFORE the day, and as the trigger for the Day. 

Pretribers' hermeneutic is that Matt 24 was Jesus answering Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. They understand that Daniel wrote that the 70 weeks was for HIS people. Jesus proves this when He mentions the abomination that will divide THEIR week - NOT the churches' week. 

Do you mean the hermeneutics that allows you to claim that when John, in spirit, was shown the throne of God in heaven that was referring to the rapture? Now, finally, you hit the nail on the head! Most pretribers are mistaken and can only IMAGINE that the rapture is in Rev. 4:1. This is one point I must agree with you on: CLEARLY that verse is John being called up, NOT the rapture. However, a few pretribers know the truth: that Paul's rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal that starts the Day of the Lord. And they also know that the "trib" or 70th week will not start until the 7th seal. 

A literal, historical, grammatical, and contextual hermeneutic will not yield a pretribulational model for the rapture.

Here you are mistaken, plain and simple. Paul is clear that his rapture was pretrib. It is made clear in 1 thes. 5 and in 2 Thes. 2. The problem is, people with strong preconceptions cannot read these scriptures with preconceived glasses and so MISS the truth. "Their hermeneutic" is to imagine the Matthew 24 gathering MUST BE Paul's gathering when scripture proves it cannot be. "Their Hermeneutic" is to imagine a gathering from heaven can fit Paul's rapture, when we all know Paul's rapture will gather from the earth. Their Hermeneutic is to imagine that by some miracle not yet written in the Word, they will somehow make it to the marriage and supper that will be held in heaven. Some have to CHANGE he written word to fit their theory and so move the marriage and supper to a different location or time. 

You see,  there are perceived problems with ALL theories of when the rapture is. The Post trib theory has holes, but the prewrath theory is more like a sieve than a theory derived by a proper Bible hermeneutic.  

The truth is found in Hebrews 9:

²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Read it carefully: WHO will get to see Jesus when He comes the second time? I did not write this - God caused someone to write it.  It will only be those who are LOOKING For Him, expecting Him. 

Question: when you expect to see the temple built first or see the Beast in the temple first, how then can you be expecting Jesus' coming TOMORROW or even TODAY? 

I think the truth is clear: Jesus will come pretrib FOR those who are expecting Him. In other words, the rapture will be just like anything else we get from heaven, we get it by FAITH. Those who are expecting Him any time will have FAITH in His coming. But those that expect to see the man of sin first, will have no faith in His coming pretrib.  I think these people are in a very dangerous place of being left behind. I hope I am wrong.

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Read it carefully: WHO will get to see Jesus when He comes the second time? I did not write this - God caused someone to write it.  It will only be those who are LOOKING For Him, expecting Him. 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Down goes another false imagination of Mr. mad

Praise Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, our Lord and Saviour

[OldCoot]

J. N. Darby didn’t invent anything nor did M. McDonald. Darby did bring it into more popularity, but he hardly invented it. Pre-trib eschatogy can be found 200 years earlier than Darby and even in some early church writings. Not making the case that it is right, just stating facts in evidence.   Too many folks have Darby on the brain complex.  Primarily caused by listening or reading only those that fit one’s world view on these things.

Edited October 1, 2018 by OldCoot

[Dennis1209]

On 3/5/2018 at 5:04 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Dennis,

I agree that the maturing and catching away of the Body of Christ is very close. We are coming to the unity of the faith of Christ and His purposes. (Note not denomination unity). Now I don`t believe God has given us a date for this catching away, but I believe His Holy Spirit will stir our hearts at the close time - around the Russian war.

As to the no one knows the day etc that was concerning the Day of the Lord, (trib) and it was said to Israel who were blinded at that time. Remember what the Holy Spirit said to the believers at Thessalonica -

`you, brethren, are NOT in darkness that this day (trib) should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

So we can know when the trib, will start but not exactly when we, the Body of Christ will go, till the last minute.

My thoughts, Marilyn.

BTW I would say less than 2 years.

Around the Russian war? By that I'm going to assume you are referring to the Ezekiel 38: - 39: invasion (Gog / Magog)? If so, I can't prove it but I definitely agree. I personally suspect it will occur prior to the signing of a peace agreement with the many. If that's correct, that tells me it will happen before the tribulation. What's happening and who's in Syria, and the actions of Turkey, Sudan and Libya that would make anyone think the timing is ever so near? Bible prophecy is unfolding perfectly right before our very own eyes to witness. There has never been a convergence of "everything" prophetic coming on like birth pangs. The world is not falling apart, it's falling into place ~ Jan Markell.

Luke 21:28 (KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Key words: begin - up - nigh.

I think of it this way. The Bible states Israel will be burning these weapons of the Gog / Magog invasion for seven years. At mid tribulation (3.5 year point) Israel will flee for their lives from the Antichrist when he enters the Temple declaring himself god. So at a minimum, Israel has to start burning those weapons for fuel at least 3.5 years prior to the start of the tribulation. Some say it will only be the Jews that flee and the rest left will continue burning them, but I don't personally buy that idea. 

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

J. N. Darby didn’t invent anything nor did M. McDonald. Darby did bring it into more popularity, but he hardly invented it. Pre-trib eschatogy can be found 200 years earlier than Darby and even in some early church writings. Not making the case that it is right, just stating facts in evidence.   Too many folks have Darby on the brain complex.  Primarily caused by listening or reading only those that fit one’s world view on these things.

Look at how many centuries the Bible was suppressed by the RCC and only read to the mass in Latin. It was not until it was translated into English (and other languages) and the printing press was invented (14th century), and the Bible was the first book ever massed produced. Not a new concept at all, the Bible even teaches a pretrib Rapture. Just I Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 clearly reveals it. The Apostle Paul even though it was imminent in his day by using the plural 'we' in 1 Thes 4: 17.

Just my hermeneutical view of scripture.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 This gets to the heart of the matter why so many people believe in pretrib.  By knowing,  or believing that Jesus's return is NOT imminent displays a lack of faith in having a personal relationship with Jesus.   It does not mean you are not saved,  just that your faith would be challenged to walk righteously before him in love.  There are two principal motives for serving Christ:  fear and love.   

Fear of the unexpected judgment of God is a strong motive for living righteously.   Perfect love casts out fear.   Knowing Christ,  means walking righteously under all circumstances of life,  good and bad,  because Christ, in ever present fashion,  is manifesting his righteous will in our lives.   A person deficient in their faith  is more prone to obeying the flesh because they know that the judgment of God is not near.   Jesus said that one whose faith is built upon a stony heart will fall away when tribulation and persecution comes. 

*[[Mat 13:20]] KJV* But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; [21]  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

 Paul said it this way: 

*[[2Th 1:4]] KJV* So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

*[[2Co 6:4]] KJV* But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, [5] In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

*[[Heb 6:12]] KJV* That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The PuP 

Good post! Then there is that verse where John said, if we SAY we love Him but don't keep His commandments, we are liars!

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Look at how many centuries the Bible was suppressed by the RCC and only read to the mass in Latin. It was not until it was translated into English (and other languages) and the printing press was invented (14th century), and the Bible was the first book ever massed produced. Not a new concept at all, the Bible even teaches a pretrib Rapture. Just I Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 clearly reveals it. The Apostle Paul even though it was imminent in his day by using the plural 'we' in 1 Thes 4: 17.

Just my hermeneutical view of scripture.

Good points! Thanks.