The Measuring of the Temple

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, ghtan said:

Are we told what John is to prophesy again in 10:11? If the temple were the body of Christ, are we told its 'measurement'?

In Rev 10 John was just told that when the seventh angel sounded, the mystery of God is finished.  He probably thought he was finished writing but was told he must prophesy more.  The "more" is what follows and provides additional details concerning the seals and plagues.

~~~

The measuring of the body of Christ is accomplished during the 42 months or 1260 days.  I see a series of three different measurings during that time:

1. The mark and the image - the initial segregation which separates those who keep the word of God's perseverance from those who don't.
2. The plagues - segregates the deceived followers of the false prophet into those who repent of their idolatry and those who don't.
3. The death of the two witnesses - the cessation of the plagues segregates those who repented into those who were sincere and those who weren't.  Blessed are those who keep their garments.

Everyone will  have been "measured" into one or the other camp when Jesus returns.  The results of the measuring are to be determined.

[ghtan]

14 hours ago, Last Daze said:

In Rev 10 John was just told that when the seventh angel sounded, the mystery of God is finished.  He probably thought he was finished writing but was told he must prophesy more.  The "more" is what follows and provides additional details concerning the seals and plagues.

~~~

The measuring of the body of Christ is accomplished during the 42 months or 1260 days.  I see a series of three different measurings during that time:

1. The mark and the image - the initial segregation which separates those who keep the word of God's perseverance from those who don't.
2. The plagues - segregates the deceived followers of the false prophet into those who repent of their idolatry and those who don't.
3. The death of the two witnesses - the cessation of the plagues segregates those who repented into those who were sincere and those who weren't.  Blessed are those who keep their garments.

Everyone will  have been "measured" into one or the other camp when Jesus returns.  The results of the measuring are to be determined.

Whatever John is meant to prophesy again, the point is that we are not told what it is. It may be the rest of Revelation but that is an interpretation. Your contention was that we are not told the measurement of the temple. Hence there is no difference; we need to interpret both.

I think it is obvious John intends the temple literally. First, 'temple' elsewhere in Revelation is always literal. Second, a measuring rod is always used to measure literal distances (see esp 21:15). Third, the altar always furnishes a literal temple in Rev. I don’t think John can make it any more plain.

If we spiritualise the temple, we also have to spiritualise the measuring rod, the altar, the outer court, etc.. The more things that are spiritualised, the more forced and less convincing the interpretation becomes. Btw, why not spiritualise the 42 months and the two witnesses too? Not doing so makes the choice arbitrary and again raises the question of consistency.

Edited March 28, 2018 by ghtan
change 21:5 to 21:15

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, ghtan said:

I think it is obvious John intends the temple literally. First, 'temple' elsewhere in Revelation is always literal. Second, a measuring rod is always used to measure literal distances (see esp 21:15). Third, the altar always furnishes a literal temple in Rev. I don’t think John can make it any more plain.

I'd have to disagree.  Revelation 3:12 states: " He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God." 

8 hours ago, ghtan said:

If we spiritualise the temple, we also have to spiritualise the measuring rod, the altar, the outer court, etc.. The more things that are spiritualised, the more forced and less convincing the interpretation becomes. Btw, why not spiritualise the 42 months and the two witnesses too? Not doing so makes the choice arbitrary and again raises the question of consistency.

I don't see it as a matter of "spiritualizing".  Jesus made it clear that His body was the temple of God, and the fact that people are measured points to something qualitative, not quantitative.  I doubt that God is wanting a log of everyone's height.  That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

[Last Daze]

On 3/15/2018 at 9:23 AM, inchrist said:

Endurance 

Revelation 14:12 ►

Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

This is definitely applicable to the time when the temple of God is measured.

The measuring of the new covenant temple of God (the body of Christ) in Revelation 11 begins around the same time as the ministry of the two witnesses, which is when the mark and the image are introduced.  The mark and the image will measure the temple of God.

This is what God says about the war being waged against the saints through the mark and the image:

• If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.  Revelation 13:10
• Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.  Revelation 14:12

The mark and the image will measure the faith and perseverance of the body of Christ.  Who has set their affection on things above and cares not for the things of this world?  Who loves God more than saving their own life?  The mark and image will reveal the answer to those questions.

For those who refuse the mark and the image by persevering in the faith, God makes this promise:

• Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.  Revelation 3:10

[inchrist]

25 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

This is definitely applicable to the time when the temple of God is measured.The mark and the image will measure the faith and perseverance of the body of Christ.  Who has set their affection on things above and cares not for the things of this world?  Who loves God more than saving their own life?  The mark and image will reveal the answer to those questions.

Agreed and It's foretold in 1 Cor 10:11-13

11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

there is no pretrib, this is confirmed with 1 cor 10 

And this is the measure of the faith for end times and as you can see no difference with what we expect in Revelation.

1 cor 10

Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. ⁷ Do not be idolaters,as some of them were; as it is written: 

 

“The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”^[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 

 

We should not test Christ,^[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. ¹⁰

(Rev 9:19) Their power was in their mouths and in their tails. For their tails had heads like snakes, with the power to injure people.

 

 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

(rev 9:11) They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

However the only difference is to torture in Revelation but same commonalities.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 3/14/2018 at 2:29 PM, Last Daze said:

Ever since Jesus shed His blood on the cross, the new covenant began.  Central to new covenant teaching is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for those who believe in Jesus.  Consequently, believers are referred to as the temple of God because He dwells within us through His Spirit.  Collectively, we as the body of Christ are His temple as well.  God’s temple is where He dwells.  Any reference to the temple of God during the time of the new covenant is a reference to the body of Christ, either corporately or to the individual members, because that’s where God dwells.

 

• Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.”  Revelation 11:1

   

This is clearly a reference to the new testament understanding of “temple” because people are being measured.  This “measuring” correlates to the time when the two witnesses are sent, which is same time as the false prophet’s war against the saints, which is the same as the time of great distress.  What’s being measured is the temple of God (the body of Christ), the altar (the sacrifices being made) and those who worship in it (the individual believer).  The question is how is this measuring going to take place during that time?

 

The Church is in heaven at this time.  The Two-witnesses at the "1335" (a blessing) will show up, they are told to Measure the Temple and Alter and them that worship therein. In other words, they are to call (MEASURE WHO REPENTS and Worships Jesus Christ) Israel unto REPENTANCE like Malachi 4:5-6 says "BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord" which happens at the "1260" when the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem.  

Rev. 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 

All those not WORSHIPING Christ at the Alter in the Temple are seen as Gentile heathens, of the Beast. Do not MEASURE THEM or call them unto repentance, they are of the BEAST, they will not come unto Christ, they have the Mark of the Beast. 

I see these MEASUREMENTS as parameters given unto the Two-witnesses by God. They Preach for 1260 days and thus die 75 days before the Beast dies. They die at the end of the 2nd Woe, the Beast does at the end if the 3rd Woe (7th Vial). They are to pray the Plagues down on mankind, and as we see in Rev. ch. 8 the Prayers of the Saints are taken up to heaven, Gods Nostrils smells them, then cast them back to earth as Fire/Plagues/Trumpet Judgments. 

The Two-witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe. 

Rev. 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The 3RD Woe comes quickly, THEN the Seventh Angel Sounded !! That is the 3rd Woe, that is ch. 16 in ONE VERSE !! This is why the Kingdoms of this world becomes Christ Kingdoms. This is a Parenthetical Citation. This chapter is not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation, this chapter is about the LIVES of the Two-witnesses. From the time they SHOW UP at the 1335, all 1260 days of their Ministry until the end of the 2nd Woe, then after thy die their PRAYERS are still being heard and thus bring forth the LAST or 3rd Woe on all mankind. Thus we see their 1260 days of ministry, PLUS the last 75 days which is the 3rd Woe as a part of this chapter. We see the full 1335 Days from the time they show up until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. 

They show up 1335 Days before ALL OF THESE WONDERS END..........Or the Second Coming.  

 

[Diaste]

On 3/15/2018 at 8:12 AM, Last Daze said:

• Nowhere does it state to count the worshipers there.  A little due diligence goes a long way.  Check the original text.
• Nowhere does it state to measure the inner court.  It states specifically what is to be measured.

Are you not familiar with the new covenant teaching of the temple of God?  I summarized it in the OP.  If you'd like, I can go into more detail.  You do agree that we're in the new covenant through the blood of Christ, don't you? 

If the Israelis build a structure on the temple mount, or anywhere else for that matter, and construct it according to the pattern in the Old Testament, that does not make it the temple of God.  It may be a "temple" and they may call it the "temple of God" but the temple of God, by definition, is where He dwells.  When Jesus died, the curtain in the temple was torn in two.  Why?  Because God no longer dwelt there. Instead, He takes up residence in believers.  The true temple of God is the body of Christ, because that's where He dwells.  That's fundamental to the new covenant.

Again, how is the true temple of God, the body of Christ, going to be measured during the time of great distress?

 

Maybe it's not the true Temple being measured. I don't think we can prohibit distinctions based on the truth of the NC when evidence presents us with another conclusion. I think you touch on this in the above when retaining the possibility that a stone Temple could indeed stand in Israel. It's not the true Temple, it is 'a' temple. Built for a sole reason and particular purpose. Not to usurp the true temple, not to subvert the will of of God; but as the culmination of the insidious deception perpetrated on Israel and wholly embraced by the Jewish people. There is too much evidence in Daniel, the Gospels and the Epistles to ignore the reality of a stone Temple, ostensibly built in the name of I Am, for I Am, and in honor of I Am, to be ignored. In reality this coming Temple is a monument to vanity and completes the rebellion of the Jewish people, in total rejection of the Salvation of God through Jesus Christ, in favor of an earthly protector, once again.

In Rev 11 it does not look like any measurements of the true Temple are in view. A 'metreo' is a linear measurement and in this case we do not see the language required to judge this metaphorical. For instance, Jesus was speaking of judging in the gospels when He used the term measure, which is 'metron', or 'a standard' in this case as the previous language requires. In that case, how we 'measure'(judge, by what standard) will also be 'measured' to us. In Rev 11 the text is not proverbial, it's literal as 'metreo' is 'to measure' and the definition suggests a personal assessment of dimensions . 'Metreo' is also an estimate and that fits smoothly with the language; "Measure the dimensions the of the Temple and the altar and estimate the number of worshipers." The distinction is clear as no preceding language would suggest this as 'mete out' or 'judge' as in the Gospels.

The dual nature, the forces in opposition, exist in everything. This axiom demands a stone temple in opposition to the true temple. The spiritual versus the natural. We see this manifest in the church now with the gaudy edifices erected to the vanity of the wolves. These are not the 'church', the church is the body of believers. These buildings are, in many cases, an affront to Jesus. Yet they stand. As will the Jewish Temple.

I think you answered the question, "Again, how is the true temple of God, the body of Christ, going to be measured during the time of great distress?" in another reply and I mostly agree. 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Maybe it's not the true Temple being measured. I don't think we can prohibit distinctions based on the truth of the NC when evidence presents us with another conclusion. I think you touch on this in the above when retaining the possibility that a stone Temple could indeed stand in Israel. It's not the true Temple, it is 'a' temple. Built for a sole reason and particular purpose. Not to usurp the true temple, not to subvert the will of of God; but as the culmination of the insidious deception perpetrated on Israel and wholly embraced by the Jewish people. There is too much evidence in Daniel, the Gospels and the Epistles to ignore the reality of a stone Temple, ostensibly built in the name of I Am, for I Am, and in honor of I Am, to be ignored. In reality this coming Temple is a monument to vanity and completes the rebellion of the Jewish people, in total rejection of the Salvation of God through Jesus Christ, in favor of an earthly protector, once again.

I certainly don't discount the possibility of a physical temple, I just don't see it as a prophetic imperative.  I like to consider numerous possibilities and I can see a scenario which doesn't require a physical temple.  I'm perfectly fine with there being one too, given the dual nature of things.

[Heleadethme]

On 3/15/2018 at 10:12 AM, Last Daze said:

• Nowhere does it state to count the worshipers there.  A little due diligence goes a long way.  Check the original text.
• Nowhere does it state to measure the inner court.  It states specifically what is to be measured.

Are you not familiar with the new covenant teaching of the temple of God?  I summarized it in the OP.  If you'd like, I can go into more detail.  You do agree that we're in the new covenant through the blood of Christ, don't you? 

If the Israelis build a structure on the temple mount, or anywhere else for that matter, and construct it according to the pattern in the Old Testament, that does not make it the temple of God.  It may be a "temple" and they may call it the "temple of God" but the temple of God, by definition, is where He dwells.  When Jesus died, the curtain in the temple was torn in two.  Why?  Because God no longer dwelt there. Instead, He takes up residence in believers.  The true temple of God is the body of Christ, because that's where He dwells.  That's fundamental to the new covenant.

Again, how is the true temple of God, the body of Christ, going to be measured during the time of great distress?

 

Measured...........tested, tried, sifted, weighed....?

[Last Daze]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:02 AM, Heleadethme said:

Measured...........tested, tried, sifted, weighed....?

That's how I see it.  I've put together a little pdf booklet that described the last days measuring of the new covenant temple of God.  You can download it here if you're interested.