Born again, a “real” birth.

[angels4u]

22 minutes ago, Gideon said:

And if that were the actual effect for most Christians, I could accept that. But for more than a few, the net over them is so entangled that they truly do not believe there even is a place of abiding in Christ, where we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. 

For most today, they are trying to die to self by their efforts, which is a losing battle simply because it is impossible. They do not have shields of faith up that God can and will bring them to a place of real victory of those sins. They do not believe holiness in this life is even possible, because they see it as an attainment they are asked to achieve, rather than a shield of faith whereby we believe Christ has already achieved it for us. 

James said that when we pray, and make requests of God, let us not doubt in our hearts because if we do, let us understand we will get nothing from God. A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways. So when we are taught to pray “Deliver us from evil”, it is imperative that we believe that not only can He do it, He will do it!

The risk for children of God is that if they are continually failing, they then fall back on believing holiness is actually an impossibility. They lean harder and harder on their positional  standing, never seeing that it is that positional standing which is meant to enliven our faith to believe it through until it is fully manifested in our lives. 

Is there a danger to get to the point where we are not concerned about God’s real victory ever really manifesting itself IN US?  Absolutely! Continued sin causes our repentance to  become less and less genuine, and even our core faith is attacked, as layers and layers of hardness begin to change our once thriving faith into lukewarm head knowledge. 

Until we draw a line in the sand that God can and will keep us from falling, and that sin has no authority over us as we have been delivered from its power,  any hope of further growth in sanctification is cut asunder. So IF we slip into sin, it is imperative we get back up, repent , and hold back of our shield of faith that we are new creatures and confess again that sin has no hold on us, for we are not in the flesh, and owe the flesh nothing.  

Blessings, 

Gideon

 

Why would we as Christians want to sin, knowing Jesus paid for us to set us free with such a high price? It is my desire to do His will and if I sin (which will happen now and then) I confess my sin and God will look at me through the eyes of Jesus and will remember my sins no more

Do I want to sin? Of course not, only the truly born again Christian can understand this truth, holiness is a term to walk close with Jesus and don't we all desire a closer walk with our Savior?

For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.Phil.2:13

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.Romans 7:15-20 

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John1:8

[brakelite]

6 hours ago, angels4u said:

and if I sin (which will happen now and then)

7  For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he (Proverbs 23:7)

[brakelite]

6 hours ago, Yowm said:

BTW, the Holy Spirit points us to Christ Jesus and deeper faith/trust in Him, not in our positional standing. 

Absolutely. As you said, "the just shall live by faith". Not his own faith as is commonly mistranslated, but the faith of Jesus. This faith even is a gift from above. I am sure Gideon agrees with you, and it is our focus on our positional standing that destroys faith. But let us not give consideration to our positional standing. How can we confess our sins if we don't acknowledge them? How can we acknowledge them if we don't examine ourselves and be honest about where we are and what we are doing? 

6 hours ago, Yowm said:

I can't speak for other Christians. Are these born again Christians you are speaking of? Have you interviewed these 'more than a few'?

7 hours ago, Gideon said:

There is little need to interview anyone. Christians themselves cry from the rooftops their faulty characters and need of healing. I don't know about you, but sighing and crying for the abominations done in Israel comes as a result of our closer walk with Jesus, not because we need to ask anyone where they're at. Sin in the church is becoming obvious, more obnoxious, and more prevalent as the days between now and the coming of the Bridegroom to take His bride home become less. Part of the falling away I guess. And recognition of that is I suppose part of the awakening, spoken of in another thread. The latter rain is beginning to fall, (not the counterfeit that charismatics claim as exclusively theirs) and those unprepared not only fail to recognize it, but reject any reference or suggestion regarding its existence. Such is the blindness in Israel.

[brakelite]

40 minutes ago, Yowm said:

How did Israel get into this discussion?

 

According to my Bible Christians are grafted onto the olive tree. We have Abraham as our father. Ezekiel 9 applies to both the church and Israel. Today, only the church. Those who were slaughtered have long gone, those who were sealed in their foreheads formed the nucleus of the church. There is always a remnant. What do you suppose is that 'mark' in the foreheads of them that weep over the sins in their midst today?

[brakelite]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

Absolutely. As you said, "the just shall live by faith". Not his own faith as is commonly mistranslated, but the faith of Jesus. This faith even is a gift from above. I am sure Gideon agrees with you, and it is our focus on our positional standing that destroys faith. But let us not give consideration to our positional standing. How can we confess our sins if we don't acknowledge them? How can we acknowledge them if we don't examine ourselves and be honest about where we are and what we are doing? 

There is little need to interview anyone. Christians themselves cry from the rooftops their faulty characters and need of healing. I don't know about you, but sighing and crying for the abominations done in Israel comes as a result of our closer walk with Jesus, not because we need to ask anyone where they're at. Sin in the church is becoming obvious, more obnoxious, and more prevalent as the days between now and the coming of the Bridegroom to take His bride home become less. Part of the falling away I guess. And recognition of that is I suppose part of the awakening, spoken of in another thread. The latter rain is beginning to fall, (not the counterfeit that charismatics claim as exclusively theirs) and those unprepared not only fail to recognize it, but reject any reference or suggestion regarding its existence. Such is the blindness in Israel.

That said, it may be that I need to clarify what I mean by 'positional standing'...by that I mean who I am experientially...not what I have spiritually in Christ. I can see that I may have that terminology back to front to the theologians in our midst. My apologies if there is any confusion. 

[Mike Mclees]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:51 AM, Not me said:

As with all things that you learn or read, take to the Lord for a confirmation. 

The expression “born again” in scripture is not a figure of speech. It is a real birth that happens at the time of an individuals  conversion, or when they get saved. This, that comes to life this new “thing” in scripture is called the New Creation”.

This is the only thing in the believers life that is “born of God”. This is that life that does not sin. 

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

It is learning to allow or “put on” this new creation is what growing  in Christ is about. All besides this “putting on of Christ by faith” is a striving after a righteousness of ones own. Will always and forever end in failure, For self cannot deny self. There has to be a yeilding to another. This in scripture is what it means to “walk by faith”. It is the manifestation of the new creation in the life of the believer that sets a person free from there fallen nature or “old man”. 

This is the one and only way to walk a walk that is pleasing to God. A victorious Christian life is not a dream that is a fancy. It is for all believers that are willing to pay the price. And what is that price? Laying down one's life, all of it. But what does this mean in actuality ?  “Laying down one’s life”. This is where most Christians say they are willing, but they don’t see the totality of this “laying down.” They see there “bad” they want to lose. But their “good” has to be given up also. It is when a believer is willing to give up all their life and enter into death rather than sin, that they come to see even that which they called their “good,” was tainted with self, making it sin. The salvation we have in Christ is a great and glorious thing. That we His body would come to know what our salvation in Christ consists of, from the eternal ground.    As with all scriptural truths they must be seen inwardly. Take these words or ideas before the Lord yourself, and ask Him about them. That is the only way you will know for sure.

much love in Christ, Not me

Ido no believe that one is automatically born again of the spirit at the time he confesses Christ. He is saved yes. One must come to an understanding or revelation of the spirit to be born again of the spirit. This is something Nicodemus did not understand in John 3: : Can a man go back to the womb? He had no clue what Jesus was talking about. Jesus said are you a leader of Israel and not know these these thing. Jesus made 2 distinction. The spirit is spirit and the flesh is flesh. The flesh is the carnal nature of men. The carnal nature cannot grasp the tings of the spirit. The spirit which we cannot see exists even if we cannot see them. They are the unseen things of God.

We would rather be able to see feel or touch God. We like rulers who are human that we see feel and touch. Lets see what Jesus said the women at the well. 

John 4:19-24 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁹ The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

²⁰ Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

²¹ Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

²² Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

²³ But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

^{24 (}God is a Spirit) and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This means God is not seen yet is every where. 

If one never goes to his private prayer  place alone to talk to God, he is not Born again of the spirit. No private relationship no spiritual relationship. This is a spiritual fact

Romans 8:8  Those who are of the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 

Just one comes to Christ does not necessarily mean he is Dorn again of the Spirit. 

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Mike Mclees

[warrior12]

19 hours ago, Gideon said:

For most today, they are trying to die to self by their efforts, which is a losing battle simply because it is impossible. They do not have shields of faith up that God can and will bring them to a place of real victory of those sins. They do not believe holiness in this life is even possible, because they see it as an attainment they are asked to achieve, rather than a shield of faith whereby we believe Christ has already achieved it for us. 

It seems that you can perceive the minds of the believer more than he himself.  When a believer goes on his knees and offers up his prayers for forgiveness, and for other things, do you think that he is doing this with one eye closed, or is his heart really into that prayer.  Not everyone has had God speak to them as you said he has to you and told you things ect.   I guess if that was to happen any believer, then his life would be a total transformation in the effect that those meeting with God would have registered in his very being and consciousness. 

The believer who is determined to follow and obey the rules set about by the Lord would have a supernatural transformation, in that he yearns to do the things that pleases God.  If a believer does not believe as you said in the above words then it is obvious, he is not a believer period.  The believer's life is a journey that would include trial and troubles to chasten him to grow and mature in his walk.  Especially when he has entered the world of spiritual warfare, the truth of the word becomes more vivid and in battles he learn where his back is against the wall and no earthly powers can help him, thus his trust and faith increase with the journey.  It is a battle and the Lord teaches as we go along.   Every believer is at stages that only he knows and no man else can say this or that because it is of the heart and no man can know his heart, only the Lord knows that.   

Sanctification is pronounced in the word for a reason and however the believer want to see the truth of it, is how he examines himself and his walk, struggles and realities to the world he lives in.  Yes the Bible teaches us not to sin, but to transform our lives to Christlike behavior, but does this happen all at once or does it comes with chastening and the likes.

 

⁴ Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

⁵ And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

⁶ For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

⁷ If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

⁸ But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

⁹ Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

¹⁰ For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

¹¹ Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

  

[Gideon]

7 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

It seems that you can perceive the minds of the believer more than he himself.  When a believer goes on his knees and offers up his prayers for forgiveness, and for other things, do you think that he is doing this with one eye closed, or is his heart really into that prayer.  Not everyone has had God speak to them as you said he has to you and told you things ect.   I guess if that was to happen any believer, then his life would be a total transformation in the effect that those meeting with God would have registered in his very being and consciousness. 

The believer who is determined to follow and obey the rules set about by the Lord would have a supernatural transformation, in that he yearns to do the things that pleases God.  If a believer does not believe as you said in the above words then it is obvious, he is not a believer period.  The believer's life is a journey that would include trial and troubles to chasten him to grow and mature in his walk.  Especially when he has entered the world of spiritual warfare, the truth of the word becomes more vivid and in battles he learn where his back is against the wall and no earthly powers can help him, thus his trust and faith increase with the journey.  It is a battle and the Lord teaches as we go along.   Every believer is at stages that only he knows and no man else can say this or that because it is of the heart and no man can know his heart, only the Lord knows that.   

Sanctification is pronounced in the word for a reason and however the believer want to see the truth of it, is how he examines himself and his walk, struggles and realities to the world he lives in.  Yes the Bible teaches us not to sin, but to transform our lives to Christlike behavior, but does this happen all at once or does it comes with chastening and the likes.

 

⁴ Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

⁵ And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

⁶ For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

⁷ If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

⁸ But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

⁹ Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

¹⁰ For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

¹¹ Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

  

And how many years, or even decades does it take for us to admit that what we want to happen is not happening? Our view of progressive sanctification is that we will grow from our old natures to our new ones over time. We are then told several things as to our sanctification.  

1) We can never truly be holy, for there will always be a small bit of flesh  left. Thus, the feet are cut out from any who truly long to walk holy before the Lord all day, every day. 

2) There is truly nothing we can do to hasten our journey toward holiness, for that would be working for it. So we are left simply as clock watching believers, looking for time to accomplish in us, what the in dwelling Christ cannot. 

Thus, the result of these two teachings is that we are left to simply wander barren pastures that cannot offer us overcoming life for our entire lives, as we try to avoid “big” sins, told not to sweat our  “little” ones, because no one is perfect, right? So we  go to church, read our Bibles, pray for forgiveness when we slip, and the result? Such a life leaves us passionless, joyless, and yes..... lukewarm. And then we wonder why those in the world are not exactly lined up at the door of our churches to get what we have? 

We are promised life and that more abundantly. We are promised joy unspeakable and full of glory. We are told that we can walk in victory over the world, the flesh and the devil in THIS life and that we can do all things through a Him who strengthens us. And when anyone raises their voice to say that we indeed can live this life, that it is our birthright, because our God is the God who CANNOT lie, he or she is shouted down as a false teacher. Hmmmm...

How dark does it have to become before we cry out to Him for the free indeed He promised us, where we prove we are no longer slaves to sin because we no longer COMMIT them? Darkness like we have never seen is approaching. The time to run into Him and find true safety is now. The question is, will we finally admit that we need such a life, and that our way is not ever going to lead us to victory we so desperately need? 

We have been taught that as Christians, we have been all set on the highway to holiness, a highway with no end. It is a highway we can do nothing to navigate or to speed up our process. We are told we can never reach the end of it. Do we not realize that the Israelites traveled this same unending highway as they aimlessly circled the wilderness of unbelief?

Our God wants to plant us on the highway OF holiness, where there are no evil beasts, where God progresses us as we believe Him to do so, and you know what? Praise God, before He comes back, His church WILL be found there, every single one of us. We will finally become the bride without spot or wrinkle, fully prepared for the wedding to our bridegroom, not by our efforts, but by His efforts IN US as we believe His promises.

We can be planted there this very day, this very hour. No preparation is needed... none...... just  a burning desire to walk pleasing to Him. Some will do so, some will dig in their heels and remain convinced that that old wine is better. But I am convinced by the Lord that every single sheep, those who truly love the Lord in truth, WILL walk there, and in this life. It is coming. Heck, it is here. The only real question  is, who wants it more than their own life?

Blessings, 

Gideon

[Heleadethme]

22 hours ago, Yowm said:

Maybe we are talking two different languages, but if this is 'your' manifestation/Christ have at it, just leave me out LOL...

man·i·fes·ta·tion

ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun

 

1. an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.

   "the first obvious manifestations of global warming"

   • the action or fact of showing an abstract idea.

     "the manifestation of anxiety over the upcoming exams"

     synonyms:

     display, demonstration, show, exhibition, presentation "the manifestation of anxiety"

   • a symptom or sign of an ailment.

     "a characteristic manifestation of Lyme disease"

     synonyms:

     sign, indication, evidence, token, symptom, testimony, proof, substantiation, mark, reflection, example, instance "manifestations of global warming"

Hmmm....you really sure you want out of that brother?

 Rom 8:19

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 1Co 12:7

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 2Co 4:2

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Again, how did the term Israel get into the discussion? I know you know not all of us hold to replacement theology or a variation as you do. I hold that the Church and Israel are two different entities, or is there an agenda you would like to push here?

Israel is the ensample to the church.  In scripture Israel is the church in type, in many instances.  As Israel went, so went the church.  Israel was even called the church in the wilderness.