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Mike Mclees

Two trbulations and the truth about them

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It seems to me that one of the arguments that is presented to those of the pretrib camp [I am not pretrib] is that [the] tribulation is not,  does not constitute,  as the wrath of God.   And that is very well true.   But what good does it do to say that tribulations do not equal the wrath of God, IF the wrath of God does not equal the wrath of God? 

What do I mean?  What good is the scripture that says: 

*[[1Th 5:9]] KJV* For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The implementation of the mark is the direct expression of the wrath of God: 

*[[Rev 14:9]] KJV* And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

*[[Rev 14:10]] KJV* The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Here we have the pronouncement to those who take the mark,  as in beforehand,  SHALL DRINK of the cup of God's wrath.   That is what is portrayed in the 7 vials or bowls of God's wrath: 

*[[Rev 16:2]] KJV* And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

It is to be a foreknown thought that those who take the mark are assuring themselves of direct exposure to the judgmental wrath of God.   The church will pervert itself from the wrath of God,  by the salvation of the Lord Jesus.  I don't think that Paul is referring to the hope of salvation that we receive from believing on his name. 

John makes it clear that the purpose of implementing the mark is to intentionally deceive those by the miracles and signs and wonders performed by the false prophet. 

*[[Rev 13:14]] KJV* And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

This is the same strong delusion [objective/ intentional deceit]  that "God shall send" via the miracles,  signs,  and lying wonders found in 2 Thess 2.

*[[2Th 2:9]] KJV* Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Contrary to popular opinion,  the false prophet is the man of sin and not the beast.    Even if you cannot see that,  the deception [to receive the mark of the beast] is brought by the hand of God, and is directed at those who chose not (past tense)  to believe the gospel.   To say that the church of believers will be subjected to taking the mark is to make void the thought that we have not been appointed to wrath.   Post-trib must come up with a new definition of wrath , if taking the mark is not the wrath of God.  I would also argue that wrath is far more than just tribulation. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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40 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Post-trib must come up with a new definition of wrath , if taking the mark is not the wrath of God.

Not necessarily.  Taking the mark is part of worshiping the image which is the sin of idolatry.  Those who did not receive the love of the truth but chose to take pleasure in unrighteousness will be deceived by the strong delusion of the signs and wonders.  I don't think any of them will ever repent.  The plagues are God's corrective discipline for the believers (not unbelievers) who will be deceived into thinking the man of sin is God.  Eventually the plagues will turn into God's wrath when it gets to the point that no one repents.  But that will all work itself out.

The main thing is to prepare for the coming time of great distress.

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I have read and reread all of these posts and I am still not sure what some of you are saying.  I may be opening up a floodgate, but let me state my position on the rapture as briefly as I can, then you guys can point out where you agree or disagree.

I remain premillennial and believe in a literal, future, 1,000 year reign of Christ.  There is indeed a future seven year period of time, which I call Daniel's seventieth week. It should not be called "The Seven Years of Tribulation", because there is both tribulation against the church and the wrath of God upon the enemies of God during this period.  The wrath of God begins at the 7th trumpet, even though God's enemies call for the mountains to hide them in Rev 6, and is explained in detail during the 7 vial judgments. The church is gathered for the resurrection immediately prior to the Wrath of God and after the signs delineated in Matt 24.

I will not defame the motivations of the pre-tribulationists.  They base their views on certain tenants of dispensationsalism.  (To wit: The church age is a parenthetical, therefore the church must be gone before God can return to dealing with national Israel, and hence the imminent return of Christ.)  I consider them to be my brothers in Christ with whom I disagree on eschatology.  

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Not necessarily.  Taking the mark is part of worshiping the image which is the sin of idolatry.  Those who did not receive the love of the truth but chose to take pleasure in unrighteousness will be deceived by the strong delusion of the signs and wonders.  I don't think any of them will ever repent.  The plagues are God's corrective discipline for the believers (not unbelievers) who will be deceived into thinking the man of sin is God.  Eventually the plagues will turn into God's wrath when it gets to the point that no one repents.  But that will all work itself out.

The main thing is to prepare for the coming time of great distress.

If you are saying that taking the mark is NOT expressive wrath of God,  and that thee church WILL be here during those times,  THEN you atter ignoring what the scriptures say:

*[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause GOD SHALL  SEND  THEM  strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The strong delusion is not just another tribulation,  but is expressly sent by God.  The word for delusion means "objective fraudulence", in contrast to being something that is "subjective".  It is deliberate deceit sent by thee hand of God.   God sent a lying spirit to Ahab, so that he might die in battle,  and he will do the same in the last days with the signs and lying wonders done by the falls prophet for the explicit purpose that people [who rejected the gospel]  might receive the mark of the beast. 

 

*[[Rev 19:20]] KJV* And the beast was taken, and with him THE FALSE PROPHET  that WROUGHT  MIRACLES  before him, WITH WHICH he DECEIVED  THEM  THAT had RECEIVED  THE  MARK of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

AND the people are expressly warned what the end result will be... the wrath of God.   Unless of course you think that the mark is only instituted for just the very last few days.

Blessings

The PuP 

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24 minutes ago, JoeChan82 said:

I have read and reread all of these posts and I am still not sure what some of you are saying.  I may be opening up a floodgate, but let me state my position on the rapture as briefly as I can, then you guys can point out where you agree or disagree.

I remain premillennial and believe in a literal, future, 1,000 year reign of Christ.  There is indeed a future seven year period of time, which I call Daniel's seventieth week. It should not be called "The Seven Years of Tribulation", because there is both tribulation against the church and the wrath of God upon the enemies of God during this period.  The wrath of God begins at the 7th trumpet, even though God's enemies call for the mountains to hide them in Rev 6, and is explained in detail during the 7 vial judgments. The church is gathered for the resurrection immediately prior to the Wrath of God and after the signs delineated in Matt 24.

I will not defame the motivations of the pre-tribulationists.  They base their views on certain tenants of dispensationsalism.  (To wit: The church age is a parenthetical, therefore the church must be gone before God can return to dealing with national Israel, and hence the imminent return of Christ.)  I consider them to be my brothers in Christ with whom I disagree on eschatology.  

I agree with most everything you say.   I would differ only to say that the 7 trumpets are the wrath of God directed only at the people and/ or the land of Israel.   Three times in Ezekiel he speaks of dealing with them "furiously" or in "furious rebukes".   Eze.  5:15, 23:25 & 25:17.  Furious,  there means hot anger, or wrath of God. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

If you are saying that taking the mark is NOT expressive wrath of God,  and that thee church WILL be here during those times,  THEN you atter ignoring what the scriptures say:

During the days of the mark and the image, people will either worship the image (and receive the mark) or they will be killed.  Given the smothering surveillance technology, it shouldn't take long for everyone to have decided one way or the other, especially if no one can buy or sell without his mark.

5 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

*[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause GOD SHALL  SEND  THEM  strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This verse applies only to those who never ever  received the love of the truth so as to be saved.  It doesn't preclude the ill-prepared believers from being caught up in and confused by the deceiving signs and wonders.  God will use the plagues to convict those believers of their error in judgment.  When all who are going to repent do, His wrath comes.

Again, that'll all work itself out.  Ours is to be on the alert.

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31 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

During the days of the mark and the image, people will either worship the image (and receive the mark) or they will be killed.  Given the smothering surveillance technology, it shouldn't take long for everyone to have decided one way or the other, especially if no one can buy or sell without his mark.

This verse applies only to those who never ever  received the love of the truth so as to be saved.  It doesn't preclude the ill-prepared believers from being caught up in and confused by the deceiving signs and wonders.  God will use the plagues to convict those believers of their error in judgment.  When all who are going to repent do, His wrath comes.

Again, that'll all work itself out.  Ours is to be on the alert.

 You just don't seem to a knowledge what I am saying.   The deception is the expressive wrath of God.   I think that our difference can be traced to the definition of "the gospel of the kingdom".  The gospel of grace is different from the gospel of the kingdom.   Jesus said that "the end", and not "the time of the end", would come when the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all of the world.  The kingdom belongs to the nation of Israel.   God is not going to correct the church by having to experience the plagues.   All those who rejected the gospel will be the object of the deception.   2 Thess 2 says nothing about correcting wayward Christians.   But is addressed to those who received not the truth that results in a walk of holiness. 

 

*[[2Th 2:13]] KJV* But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

*[[2Th 2:14]] KJV* Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the salvation that Paul was referring to here: 

*[[1Th 5:9]] KJV* For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Blessings

The PuP 

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

 You just don't seem to a knowledge what I am saying.   The deception is the expressive wrath of God.   

Please post the chapter and verse, several, that prove the above. Otherwise it's just your opinion.

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6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I would differ only to say that the 7 trumpets are the wrath of God directed only at the people and/ or the land of Israel.

Revelation 8:7-13 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

There is no way that the 7 Trumpets target the land of Israel only.  That sounds like the eschatological equivalent of the partial flood theory to me.  Just as the flood in the day of Noah was worldwide so is the wrath of God.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.  Additionally, the wrath of God is announced during the 7th trumpet.  

Revelation 11:15-19 And the seventh angel sounded; …  18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, …  

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1 hour ago, JoeChan82 said:

Revelation 8:7-13 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

There is no way that the 7 Trumpets target the land of Israel only.  That sounds like the eschatological equivalent of the partial flood theory to me.  Just as the flood in the day of Noah was worldwide so is the wrath of God.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.  Additionally, the wrath of God is announced during the 7th trumpet.  

Revelation 11:15-19 And the seventh angel sounded; …  18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, …  

*[[Zec 1:18]] KJV* Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.

*[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

You do know that a trumpet is a horned instrument,  right? 

Trumpets are blown not just for the sake of calling the assembly,  for war,  etc.  But, in the case of warfare,  they are to put fear in the enemies hearts. 

*[[Jdg 7:22]] KJV* And the three hundred [along with Gideon]  blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

 when The kingdom of God, comes in the future  to the land of Israel,  the Lord will not allow any evil or wicked men to reside therein:  

Blessings

The PuP 

 

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