Two trbulations and the truth about them

[JoeChan82]

I have read and reread all of these posts and I am still not sure what some of you are saying.  I may be opening up a floodgate, but let me state my position on the rapture as briefly as I can, then you guys can point out where you agree or disagree.

I remain premillennial and believe in a literal, future, 1,000 year reign of Christ.  There is indeed a future seven year period of time, which I call Daniel's seventieth week. It should not be called "The Seven Years of Tribulation", because there is both tribulation against the church and the wrath of God upon the enemies of God during this period.  The wrath of God begins at the 7th trumpet, even though God's enemies call for the mountains to hide them in Rev 6, and is explained in detail during the 7 vial judgments. The church is gathered for the resurrection immediately prior to the Wrath of God and after the signs delineated in Matt 24.

I will not defame the motivations of the pre-tribulationists.  They base their views on certain tenants of dispensationsalism.  (To wit: The church age is a parenthetical, therefore the church must be gone before God can return to dealing with national Israel, and hence the imminent return of Christ.)  I consider them to be my brothers in Christ with whom I disagree on eschatology.  

[Last Daze]

2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

If you are saying that taking the mark is NOT expressive wrath of God,  and that thee church WILL be here during those times,  THEN you atter ignoring what the scriptures say:

During the days of the mark and the image, people will either worship the image (and receive the mark) or they will be killed.  Given the smothering surveillance technology, it shouldn't take long for everyone to have decided one way or the other, especially if no one can buy or sell without his mark.

5 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

*[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause GOD SHALL  SEND  THEM  strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This verse applies only to those who never ever  received the love of the truth so as to be saved.  It doesn't preclude the ill-prepared believers from being caught up in and confused by the deceiving signs and wonders.  God will use the plagues to convict those believers of their error in judgment.  When all who are going to repent do, His wrath comes.

Again, that'll all work itself out.  Ours is to be on the alert.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

 You just don't seem to a knowledge what I am saying.   The deception is the expressive wrath of God.   

Please post the chapter and verse, several, that prove the above. Otherwise it's just your opinion.

[JoeChan82]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I would differ only to say that the 7 trumpets are the wrath of God directed only at the people and/ or the land of Israel.

Revelation 8:7-13 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

There is no way that the 7 Trumpets target the land of Israel only.  That sounds like the eschatological equivalent of the partial flood theory to me.  Just as the flood in the day of Noah was worldwide so is the wrath of God.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.  Additionally, the wrath of God is announced during the 7th trumpet.  

Revelation 11:15-19 And the seventh angel sounded; …  18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, …  

[Daniel 11:36]

The false prophet is not Satan or the beast, but will be instrumental in carrying out Satan's diabolical plan 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I would say that I have already shown you that:

1.  The man of sin is the false prophet working miracles,  signs,  and lying wonders;

2.  The strong delusion is the signs and wonders; 

3. The lie that the world believes is to take the mark; *[[Rev 19:20]] KJV* And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. 

4.  Their damnation will be the lake of fire; *[[Rev 14:10]] KJV* The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

5.  God is the one who sends it:  *[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

6.  The targeted ones are the ones who rejected the gospel,  and not the ones who are weak in their faith: *[[2Th 2:11]] KJV* And for this cause God shall send THEM strong delusion, that THEY should believe a lie:

 That THEY all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

6.  God's intentions are revealed before the mark is implemented: 

*[[Rev 14:9]] KJV* And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

7.  No where in Rev 13, et al, does it say that the dragon or the beast is the one who GIVES authority to the false prophet. 

If you think that I have just presented my opinion,  it looks to me that you are going to have to prove that the man of sin is not the false prophet,  but it is the beast doing miracles and signs,  with authority from God. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

 

I think what you have proven is God's wrath is the ultimate destiny of acceptance of the mark and the worship of the beast. 

The mark is not wrath, it's the revealing of the heart and mind of the individual accepting the mark, leading to the ultimate destiny of wrath for each person who so chooses. 

It's a logical fallacy to make assertions and then challenge the audience to disprove the assertion. The burden of proof is on the one making the case. In this instance you have not proven the false prophet is the beast but instead charge others to disprove the claim. I think it's topsy turvy, but I accept.

Rev 13

" 11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast."

Rev 13 clearly states the second beast was given power and exercises that power on behalf of the first beast. The first beast and the dragon are top dogs here as the world worships the first beast and the dragon, and the false prophet influences the world to worship the first beast. The false prophet is therefore subordinate to the first beast and the dragon, and is not the beast, nor the man of sin. 

Since the second beast is given power and is subordinate to the first beast, where did that power originate? All we have here is the dragon as the bestower of power. The dragon gave power and authority to the first beast so it is a natural conclusion the second beast received power through the same channel; seeing the second beast is directing the world to worship the first beast, and is performing signs on behalf of the first beast. Another clue in my mind is how the second beast spoke, like a dragon. The false prophet speaks aligned with a dragon, if not the dragon. It's not a stretch to think when it is said the second beast speaks like a dragon, it speaks like the same dragon from Rev 13.

We are going to see three major players in the end: the dragon, the first beast and the false prophet, all acting in concert subjugating the inhabitants of the earth. 

I requested chapter and verse proving the mark of the beast is the wrath of God. Some verse that speaks to such an equivalence. You have shown only the destiny of mark acceptance. An example of proof might look like; Rev 15:1, "I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed"

Here we know for sure the last 7 plagues are equivalent to God's wrath. It's stated plainly. Got anything like this for your assertion the mark exhibits identical equivalence to wrath in the same sort of plain speech as in Rev 15:1?

[Daniel 11:36]

Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

[Diaste]

11 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

Yeah. Seems clear enough.

[Mike Mclees]

20 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

4 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Wrong .... Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will operate in unison together

On this part I agree with you.  Both the first beast and the great Harlot ( apostate Christian church) are described with ten horns and ten crowns. Both are of the dragons power. They will be world figures known around the world and having the same intents. 

 

 

[Diaste]

24 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I did.   You apparently don't accept the certainty of God's word.   He who takes the mark,   shall (as in the future)  drink (be a partaker) of the cup (a vessel to drink fluids from) of God's wrath.   In other words,  a foreordinate certainty from God.  God's wrath is symbolically pictured as being retained in a cup,  that is to be poured out in the day of wrath.   Taking the mark,  adds to the wrath that is to be poured out (in the future,  to that time).   Rev 16 makes it clear that those who take the mark are contributors to the stored up wrath of God in the vials/ bowls: 

*[[Rev 16:2]] KJV* And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

To use the notion that the FP gets his authority "from" the beast or Dragon [rather than simply 'exercising the authority,  over the same people/ kingdom '] actually supports the FP being the man of sin.   What I'm saying is, 'GOD sending them delusion ', would have nothing to do with where the authority comes from,  as per Rev. 13. [In determining who IS the man of sin].  This means that scriptures would have to say somewhere,  besides 2 Thess 2, that the beast also does miracles, signs,  and wonders.   But it does not.   Thus, meaning that the characteristics that Paul gave in 2 Thess 2, more closely match the characteristics that John gave in Rev.  13, FOR the man of sin,  TO BE THE FALSE PROPHET,  rather than the beast.  

All of this,  I guess,  means that you are holding on to your post-trib beliefs,  more so than believing that the deception to take the mark is not a God sent intentional delusion,  with the explicit purpose of damning everyone who takes it.

Blessings

The PuP 

 

P.S.  You do understand that when the man of sin arrives on the scene,  iniquity will no longer be a mystery?   I.e., there will be an unmistakable distinction between sin and righteousness during that time. 

*[[2Th 2:7]] KJV* For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

*[[2Th 2:8]] KJV* And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The PuP 

Clear as mud. I'm bowing out.