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Brother Duke

Revelation and the Study of Woe

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Speculating, one might think these are very young, preteens perhaps. In this age to be a virgin and blameless and so honest no lie was found? Not gonna be 20 somethings. IMO.

I know it says they are virgin males but I do not know if all these attributes are physical.  These people may be virgins because they never strayed to foreign gods or believed in pagan traditions.   Also when they are sealed with the Holy Spirit God says he will forget their faults so maybe that is why they are blameless.

1Ki 19:18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Noooo.... that screen name is, Daniel 11:36 3"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods...."

 

Relax, it was a TYPO.

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm convinced this passage from Matt 16 is a metaphor for death and the grave.  It's not about spiritual battle, Jesus is saying death and the grave will not overpower the His people, they will be resurrected. Pretrib always has to make up some grand narrative about any straw they can grasp. 

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand the Rapture as before the 70th week is just not being very perceptive in all reality brother. 

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21 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand the Rapture as before the 70th week is just not being very perceptive in all reality brother. 

Rev 19 is at the end of the week.  The rapture happens just before the marriage.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Rev 19 is at the end of the week.  The rapture happens just before the marriage.

God has given me all things Revelation, its not a braggadocious statement, I put a lot of time, study and prayer into these thing as God called me unto this over 30 years ago, then I didn't get much until 5 years ago, all of the sudden its like a switch turned on full blast. 

Revelation 19 is a "Parenthetical Citation" its not a part of the chronological order of the book of Revelation. The Bride marries the Lamb then returns to Armageddon with Jesus as Conquerors (White Horses stands for CONQUERING see the First Seal). 

We see the bride in Rev. 5:9 and in Rev. 7:9 with their White Robes on, so Rev. 19 starts before these two events that we see, we know this because they are not married to start off Rev. 19 and they then RECEIVE their (our) White Robes. When we Return to Armageddon, (well we know that actually happened in Rev. ch. 16) it is not a real time event as per Rev. 19 being a part of the Chronological order of things. Thus it seems to confuse the masses. I will give the the actual order of Revelation, then the Parenthetical Citations which are many.

The Chronological Order of the book of Revelation: 

1.) Chapters 1-3 is of course the 7 Churches of Asia-Minor, some say it represents the full Church Age.

2.) Chapters 4-5 is the Church shown in Heaven having already married the Lamb, this is just before the Midway point of Tribulation on earth.

3.) Chapters 6, 7, 8, 9 and 16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments on all Mankind/Earth/Babylon I think chapter 16 should be placed right after chapter 9, it could very well have gotten jumbled/misplaced along the way. Matters not, I still understand THE ORDER. 

4.) Chapters 20, 21 and 22 are the Judgment seat to the Martyrs on earth and the hereafter/New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22. THE END, or should I say the New Beginning that lasts forevermore. Amen.

5.) Chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, (15 might go with Chapter 16, in other words it might be one chapter) 17, 18 and 19 are all Parenthetical Citations or set-a-sides that are not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. If chapter 16 came after chapter 9 then STRANGELY ENOUGH, chapter 10 with the Mysterious Book of thunders MIGHT belong with the Chronological Order since it conveys that TIME WILL BE NO MORE [as we know it of course] once the 7th Trumpet sounds, which means the 3rd Woe will be open mankind. The end thereof is Babylon Falling, Jesus taking over.  

Lets look at these set-a-side chapters that mostly start at the Midway point of Tribulation/70th Week/Jacobs Troubles at the 1260 event, which is Jesus opening the First Seal. Chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 start at the 1260 Event where the Anti-Christ comes forth via the First Seal. The Woman (Israel, Rev. 12) Flees from the Anti-Christ whom the Red Dragon (Satan) uses to come after her just like he used Herod to try to kill the male-child (Jesus). She is thus protected for 1260 days !! 

The Beast (Rev. 13) arises out of the Sea meaning he Conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region just like all the other Six Beasts did (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome). Jesus releases him to go forth at the First Seal or the 1260 Event via Daniel chapter 12 where the holy peoples power is scattered, meaning they are Conquered. So this also like Rev. ch. 12 happens during Revelation chapter 6. (Middle of the Week).

Rev. 17 is All False Religion being Destroyed. That is what the Harlot is, so the Beast and his 10 Kings destroy her via Revelation 17:16, she is judged. But of course this is in the Anti-Christ's original plans, hes going to take out ALL RELIGIONS so he can be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus hes going to destroy Islam and ALL RELIGIONS !! Thus God uses his own heart to judge all False Religion save the last one which God Himself will destroy. The False Prophet is brought in to replace the old Harlot System of many false religions. Hes the BEAST OVER RELIGION, just like the Anti-Christ is the BEAST OVER GOVERNMENTS. This all happens in the Middle of the Week, of the 1/4 of all mankind that dies this Islamic horde is a large chunk, Islam will thus be wiped out as the Beast comes forth via the Four Horses. (Rev 6).

Rev. chapter 18 also starts during Revelation chapter 6 at the First Seal, it has to, because Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD being hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues of God. It starts with the very First Seal and runs all the way unto the 7th Vial in Rev. chapter 16. GET IT? The Religious Harlot (Rev.17:7) RIDES the Government Beast !! The Government Beast decides to take over (Rev. 17:16) the Religious aspect and wants a ONE WORLD RELIGION where the Government Beast or Its LEADER is Worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! The Harlot s Burned, she is thus NO MORE !!

That brings us to the Rev. chapter 18 results of these plagues which last 1260 Days or 3.5 years which = The Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath which rains down on Babylon (Whole World under Satan's Leadership or Satan's Dark Kingdom). Verse 2 says Babylon has fallen and become the Habitation of Devils. Well of course it has, Satan and his Demon minions have been cast out of Heaven and down to earth and Apollyon and his Demon hordes have been released from the Bottomless Pit !! Then verse 4 says "Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her PLAGUES !! This is God at the 1260 Event calling the 1/3 of the Jews who have repented to Flee Judea so they do not PARTAKE in the PLAGUES that are about the hit Babylon the Great (The Whole World). Verse 5 then says her sins have reached Heaven, thus Gods bowls of Wrath are filled up, now we see the RESULTS in the rest of the chapter what the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments will bring upon earths inhabitants. 

So now we see these Plagues DESTROYS her Commerce !! Of course that would happen, more on that latter. Verse 8 says her Plagues come in ONE DAY (Day of the Lord = 3.5 Years) and verse 10 says Babylon's Judgment will come in ONE HOUR. Well in Rev. 17:12 we see that the Kings Rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR also and we know the Beast is a Beast for 42 Months, so ONE HOUR = 42 Months. The Day of the Lord lasts from the First Seal unto the 7th Vial which = 1260 Days which = 42 months which = 3.5 years which = ONE HOUR !!  

In verse 9 the Kings that committed fornication with her CRY & LAMENT her Burning, but the Same Kings HATED the Harlot !! They are---Two Different Entities. Of Course Babylon burns, all of the Grasses burn and a 1/3 of her Trees via the First Trumpet sounding in Rev. ch 8. Then in Rev. 18:11 we see THIS: Rev. 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Of course they don't, 1.5 to 2 Billion people have just been killed via the Four Horses (All of the Anti-Christ's doings) there is a HUGE Earthquake, Stars falling to earth (which I think is Satan being cast out of Heaven), the the grasses and trees burn, and the other Trumpets poison 1/3 of the waters, kill 1/3 of the sea creatures (think Fish/Shrimp), 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, the 1st WOE is a Demon horde hurting/maiming mankind for 5 Months, the 2nd WOE is an Angelic Army IMHO, who slay 1/3 of all mankind that remains probably another 1.5 Billion people. Of course the 3rd WOE is ALL SEVEN VIALS. Thus the Commerce, as you can see, will no doubt be DESTROYED by the Plagues. Babylon = The Whole World being Destroyed by Gods Wrath and thus Jesus will take over Satan's Dark Kingdom which is Babylon. Rev. 16:19 tells us that God sees the Nations that are Defeated at Armageddon as BABYLON !!

Rev. chapter 11 starts before the 1260 Event. The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335 Event, the 1290 Event is the Abomination of Desolation. Each Event and the Number of Days which in turn = the Number of days left from SAID EVENT until Jesus' Second Coming. Thus the BLESSED EVENT is the Two Witnesses showing up 1335 days from the Second Coming 45 days before the AoD and 75 days before the First Seal is opened and the Anti-Christ is thus RELEASED at the Day of the Lord.........REMEMBER, Malachi 4:5-6 says that Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. So the Two-Witnesses show up BEFORE the 1260 Event, at the 1335 Event, they are the Blessing Daniel chapter 12 speaks of. Blessed is he that comes unto the 1335. Of course its a Blessing when Elijah and probably Moses show up !! BOOM, Praise God !!

Rev ch. 11 runs for 1260 days, the Two-witness arrive before the Beast so when they DIE at the 2nd Woe and the Beast dies at the 7th Vial (end of 3rd Woe) that makes PERFECT SENSE since they both must hold their offices 1260 days. They come 75 days before the Beast arrives and they die 75 days before the Beast dies !! However, chapter 11 covers the FULL 1335 Days, their Prayers must usher in the Last Woe also, and thus we see Jesus TAKING OVER in Rev. 11 after the 7th Trumpet sounds which represents the 3rd WOE which is All Seven Vials. So when the 7th Trumpet sounds it represents the Vials having come to pass !! And Jesus takes over !! Babylon has fallen. Just like Rev. 14 is the Harvest and the Angel utters Babylon has fallen, ITS THE SAME EVENT, different happenings, and a different perspective, SAME EVENT !!

Rev. 14 is the Harvest, we see Jesus on the Clouds for the First Harvest (Rapture) in verse 14, then we see at the end of the chapter where Babylon is Destroyed via Armageddon. The Harvest of the Wicked comes after the Harvest of the Church, save Israel whom God protects in the Wilderness, hence they are the WHEAT and the Wicked Ones on earth are the TARES, they both remain on earth until the end, the Wicked are BOUND into Grave where they will remain for 1000 years and then at the Second Resurrection they will be Judged all at one time. 

Rev. 19 starts at the Rapture and pretty much and covers the Full 7 Years of the Church in Heaven, then shows us Returning with Jesus Christ. In Rev. 4:1 when John is called up to Heaven, guess what John will indeed be called to Heaven from the Grave at that point in time like the rest of the dead who sleep and those who are alive at the time of the Rapture. So Rev. 19 is NOT AT THE END per se, as you suppose its at the beginning, the Church is seen in Rev. 5:9 and 7:9 with our White Robes on. Then we are seen in Rev. 19 coming back to earth with Jesus, we are at the Marriage Supper which is Armageddon. The Fowls in Rev. ch. 19 are the EAGLES Jesus spoke of as per being where the CARCASS is in Matthew 24:28, that is the Church brother. We will be in Armageddon. 

This took way longer than I intended, LOL.

Edited by Revelation Man

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20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So I take it you are a Messianic Jew, God bless brother. 

I see now where you got that from my comments, but no, I am English, Scottish, and Swedish. I'm about as gentile as it gets. 😁  That was the ancestry I was referring to.

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand the Rapture as before the 70th week is just not being very perceptive in all reality brother. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, in the past I taught, as most other pre-tribulationists do, that Matt 24:31 was a gathering of the Jews at the end of “the Tribulation Period” when Jesus fights against the Beast and the nations that follow him as described in Revelation 19.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

However, upon greater examination of the associated texts, the future event that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 verses 29 thru 31 bears little resemblance to what John saw and recorded in Rev 19. To the contrary, the various elements of Matt 24:30-31 are found in Paul’s description of the first resurrection and rapture in 1 Thes 4:15-17.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Parousia

Notice that both Christ’s answer to the disciples on the Mount of Olives and Paul’s statement to the Thessalonians refer to the singular, future, coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ. Parousia is the Greek word used primarily as a technical term referring to the arrival and continuing presence of Jesus Christ. The word is found 24 times in the NT, 17 of those signifying the event of Christ’s future arrival and following presence.

Although the Greek word found in Matt 24:30 translated “coming” is a different word (erchomei) which refers to the action of Christ that is seen by the world (His movement through the heavens), which is just a part of the event (Parousia), the greater context makes it clear that the Parousia is in view.

Four times the word appears in Matthew 24:

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Both Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 describe the event (the Parousia) beginning to take place. However, Revelation 19:11-16 describes the Lord and the armies that follow Him far into the Day of the LORD. Notice that His vesture is already soiled with the blood of His enemies (Rev 19:13). It is also clear from the context that He is going forth to fight with the armies of the nations arrayed at Armageddon. This is the Antichrist’s last stand. After this, all the fighting will be over until the thousand years are finished when Satan is released from the bottomless pit to go forth once again to deceive the nations (Rev 20).

Matthew 24:30-31 is not describing the same activity as Revelation 19:11-21 but instead is describing the initial appearing of Christ at His Parousia on the Day of the LORD and the associated rapture or gathering of His elect to Him.

Paul refers to this appearance calling it Christ’s second time and mentioning that salvation is associated with it.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Physical or spiritual salvation

The salvation in question is physical deliverance consistent with the expectation of those saints who survive the great tribulation.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The context of Mat 10:22 is right prior to the coming of the Son of man, Jesus Christ.

He comes in the clouds

Another difference between Matthew 24:30-31 and Rev 19:11-16 is the fact that upon His initial return Christ comes in the clouds of heaven. Luke tells us that the angels present at His ascension said he would return in this manner.

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

In His Revelation given to be recorded by John the Apostle, we read:

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This statement of John gives us three important points to take note of concerning Jesus’ return with clouds.

When “he cometh with clouds” every eye will see Him

This is consistent with Christ’s warning in Matt 24 not to believe the many false reports which shall come concerning His return.

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

He says that His return will be unmistakable. It will be like the lightning which stretches from one end of the sky to the other.

When “he cometh with clouds” those who pierced Him will see Him

“Those who pierced Him” is no doubt a reference to Israel. Zechariah the Prophet prophesied of a future day when all the families of Israel that remain would mourn upon seeing Him.

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11  In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12  And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13  The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14  All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

The revelation that comes to the minds of the formerly unbelieving families of Israel upon seeing Jesus in His glory causes them to mourn for Him.

When “he cometh with clouds” all kindreds of the earth shall wail

Isaiah describes the wailing of the earth dwellers upon seeing Christ in His glory.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

John describes their response to His revelation as one of fearful dread.

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There are many such statements from the Holy Scriptures. Jesus told the high priest at His trial that He would be seen coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 14:62  ...ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Clouds are a detail closely associated with the catching up of the saints, but this is not so with the scene described by John in Rev 19:11-16. 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

The sound of a great trumpet

There is another detail that is associated with the catching up of the saints that is not found in the Revelation 19 passage, the sound of a great trumpet.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand that it has nothing to do with the arrival of Christ at His second coming is just not being very perceptive.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

 

Revelation Man, in the past I taught, as most other pre-tribulationists do, that Matt 24:31 was a gathering of the Jews at the end of “the Tribulation Period” when Jesus fights against the Beast and the nations that follow him as described in Revelation 19.

 

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

However, upon greater examination of the associated texts, the future event that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 verses 29 thru 31 bears little resemblance to what John saw and recorded in Rev 19. To the contrary, the various elements of Matt 24:30-31 are found in Paul’s description of the first resurrection and rapture in 1 Thes 4:15-17.

 

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

 

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That would be because Matthew was no given the understanding of the Rapture, which Paul was given, nor the later understanding John was given via the Second Coming so why would they seem the same. as a matter of facts Matthew was given the Rapture so vaguely by Jesus, because Jesus had to give he fate of the Messianic Jews also, that he placed it from verse 36-51 showing he did not really understand it. And he was not meant to understand it, Jesus gave it to Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles. 

The point remains, Rev. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation rapture, read my LONG POST Above. I have a firm grasp on the book of Revelation. Matthew 24:29-31 is Jesus gathering the ELECT from the Four Corners of HEAVEN (Heaven) where we are gathered having just married the Lamb, Mark says from the Four Corners of heaven AND from EARTH which would include only the Jews who are protected in Petra as per on earth. 

1 Thees. is the Rapture, we go to meet Jesus in the Air/Sky. Then of course rev. 19 tells us what happens next.

44 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

The Parousia

 

Notice that both Christ’s answer to the disciples on the Mount of Olives and Paul’s statement to the Thessalonians refer to the singular, future, coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ. Parousia is the Greek word used primarily as a technical term referring to the arrival and continuing presence of Jesus Christ. The word is found 24 times in the NT, 17 of those signifying the event of Christ’s future arrival and following presence.

 

Although the Greek word found in Matt 24:30 translated “coming” is a different word (erchomei) which refers to the action of Christ that is seen by the world (His movement through the heavens), which is just a part of the event (Parousia), the greater context makes it clear that the Parousia is in view.

 

Four times the word appears in Matthew 24:

 

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

 

 

Both Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 describe the event (the Parousia) beginning to take place. However, Revelation 19:11-16 describes the Lord and the armies that follow Him far into the Day of the LORD. Notice that His vesture is already soiled with the blood of His enemies (Rev 19:13). It is also clear from the context that He is going forth to fight with the armies of the nations arrayed at Armageddon. This is the Antichrist’s last stand. After this, all the fighting will be over until the thousand years are finished when Satan is released from the bottomless pit to go forth once again to deceive the nations (Rev 20).

 

Matthew 24:30-31 is not describing the same activity as Revelation 19:11-21 but instead is describing the initial appearing of Christ at His Parousia on the Day of the LORD and the associated rapture or gathering of His elect to Him.

 

Paul refers to this appearance calling it Christ’s second time and mentioning that salvation is associated with it.

 

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

Physical or spiritual salvation

 

The salvation in question is physical deliverance consistent with the expectation of those saints who survive the great tribulation.

 

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

The context of Mat 10:22 is right prior to the coming of the Son of man, Jesus Christ.

To be honest, people get too technical about the English verbiage seeing as the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, but then sometimes they also go overboard with things like this. Its pretty simple, Revelation ch. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew was not given the same understanding as John. Why would you think he would be? Its just conflating passages brother, all to try and prove there is no Pre-trib Rapture, even though there is. I suggest you start in Rev. 19 and explain how the Bride Marries the Lamb, then returns with Christ to defeat the Beast and his Armies, nothng else matters until you can get past that. I can over come any Mid or Post Trib theory. 

Matthew 10:22 is just like this.........Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  It has nothing to do with the END TIMES, its a misunderstanding by most people, it means one must ENDURE until the end of his life. Paul spoke about running the FULL RACE, these verses are not about the END TIMES, notice in 10:23 hes speaking to the Disciples about being Persecuted.

Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus to 70 AD. Mathew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age. Matthew 24:15-31 is the Tribulation period from the Abomination of Desolation to the SO CALLED Second Coming (Read John 20, Jesus has already Returned a Second Time). Matthew 36-51 is the Rapture and that happens after verse 14 and before verse 15, of course. So that verse you cited is about the Disciples life and times on earth brother. 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

He comes in the clouds

 

Another difference between Matthew 24:30-31 and Rev 19:11-16 is the fact that upon His initial return Christ comes in the clouds of heaven. Luke tells us that the angels present at His ascension said he would return in this manner.

 

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

In His Revelation given to be recorded by John the Apostle, we read:

 

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

This statement of John gives us three important points to take note of concerning Jesus’ return with clouds.

 

When “he cometh with clouds” every eye will see Him

 

This is consistent with Christ’s warning in Matt 24 not to believe the many false reports which shall come concerning His return.

 

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

He says that His return will be unmistakable. It will be like the lightning which stretches from one end of the sky to the other.

 

When “he cometh with clouds” those who pierced Him will see Him

There is always CLOUDS in the sky you are overthinking this, it only means hes coming in the SKIES, he will not be found in the DESERT or in the SECRET CHAMBERS as per Matt. 24 Thus Jesus is basically telling them DO NOT FALL FOR THE LIES, I will be coming from the Eastern Skies, this is why he says the ELECT can not be deceived, BEHOLD I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE[HAND]. Thus those Jews in the Wilderness/Petra know to STAY THERE, until Jesus comes in the Eastern Skies. The EAGLES (Church) will be where the CARCASS (Armageddon Carnage) is at just like the Marriage Supper of Revelation 19 shows, except the Church/Bride there are called FOWLS. That is the Second Coming, not the Rapture. 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

When “he cometh with clouds” those who pierced Him will see Him

 

“Those who pierced Him” is no doubt a reference to Israel. Zechariah the Prophet prophesied of a future day when all the families of Israel that remain would mourn upon seeing Him.

 

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11  In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12  And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13  The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14  All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

 

The revelation that comes to the minds of the formerly unbelieving families of Israel upon seeing Jesus in His glory causes them to mourn for Him.

Correct, the Jews are the only ELECT still on earth,  thus they are the Wheat and the Wicked people on earth are the TARES. Israel however have REPENTED way before this, they Repent when the Two-Witnesses show up at the 1335, and that's 75 days before the 1260 Event. Why do you think God PROTECTS THEM if they had not already repented? Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Beast Conquering Israel/Jews, Zechariah 14:3-4 is Jesus returning to save those that have already REPENTED back long ago SEE---Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1-5. 

 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

When “he cometh with clouds” all kindreds of the earth shall wail

 

Isaiah describes the wailing of the earth dwellers upon seeing Christ in His glory.

 

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

John describes their response to His revelation as one of fearful dread.

 

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

There are many such statements from the Holy Scriptures. Jesus told the high priest at His trial that He would be seen coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Mar 14:62  ...ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Clouds are a detail closely associated with the catching up of the saints, but this is not so with the scene described by John in Rev 19:11-16. 

 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

I just don't get the OVEREMPHASIS here on the Clouds, it only means Jesus will come back from Heaven next time. He will not be born of another Woman. The Anti-Christ will be born of a Woman. Rev. ch. 6 has NOTHING to do with the Second Coming, its just showing the Wrath of the Lamb/God has come, the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath last from the First Seal unto the 7th Vial or 3.5 Years. 

This looks like you copy and pasted. I find I learn more when I make my own arguments. I am not sure, it just looks that way. I used to do the same, nit I am not here to prove my points, but to learn from God, so I argue my own understandings, it has really helped me learn a lot more. Just a tip. 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

The sound of a great trumpet

 

 

 

There is another detail that is associated with the catching up of the saints that is not found in the Revelation 19 passage, the sound of a great trumpet.

 

 

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand that it has nothing to do with the arrival of Christ at His second coming is just not being very perceptive.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

All the "TRUMPET" is brother is Jesus' Voice reverberating. It is not a JUDGMENT TRUMPET, it is a Pattern if you study the 7 Feasts of Leviticus, the Feast of Trumpets always ended the HARVEST/Pentecost which = the Church Age. Then the Feast of ATONEMENT comes next and Israel needs to REPENT, and then the Feast of Tabernacles comes lastly, and Jesus TABERNACLES (Dwells) with Israel for 1000 years on earth. 

God Bless. 

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34 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

To be honest, people get too technical about the English verbiage seeing as the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, but then sometimes they also go overboard with things like this. Its pretty simple, Revelation ch. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew was not given the same understanding as John. Why would you think he would be? Its just conflating passages brother, all to try and prove there is no Pre-trib Rapture, even though there is. I suggest you start in Rev. 19 and explain how the Bride Marries the Lamb, then returns with Christ to defeat the Beast and his Armies, nothng else matters until you can get past that. I can over come any Mid or Post Trib theory. 

Matthew 10:22 is just like this.........Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  It has nothing to do with the END TIMES, its a misunderstanding by most people, it means one must ENDURE until the end of his life. Paul spoke about running the FULL RACE, these verses are not about the END TIMES, notice in 10:23 hes speaking to the Disciples about being Persecuted.

Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus to 70 AD. Mathew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age. Matthew 24:15-31 is the Tribulation period from the Abomination of Desolation to the SO CALLED Second Coming (Read John 20, Jesus has already Returned a Second Time). Matthew 36-51 is the Rapture and that happens after verse 14 and before verse 15, of course. So that verse you cited is about the Disciples life and times on earth brother. 

Hi Revelation Man,

Do you have any scripture or evidence that Matthew, Paul and John were not all given the same knowledge?  We only have the writings that have survived the ages.  Also all were anointed with the Holy Spirit.  They all had the same source of knowledge.    Matthew and John went from disciples to Apostles after being anointed.  Paul met Christ on the road to Damascus.  Christ taught the apostles a lot of information but much understanding did not come until after the Holy Spirit.  What would be the point of Christ only telling Paul about a pre-tribulation rapture?  God uses multiple witnesses for everything he does but on something so great as a pre-trib rapture he uses one source?  Also I do not see any reason why Rev. 19 would need to be a pre-trib rapture.

 

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Posted (edited)

The first thing the Lord will do is immortalize those who believe in Him

Then He will bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world of humans

This is scriptural and true

If you are one who does not believe this you have either been deceived or you are a deceiver

There is nothing else to be said about the issue so move on and believe what you want 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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      https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/read/articles/can-we-hasten-the-second-coming-of-christ-15204.html
      http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/Hastening.Lords.Return.html
      http://christianteaching.org.uk/blog/eschatology/hastening-the-return-of-christ/#comment-32538
      http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/06/can-i-speed-up-return-of-jesus.html
      https://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/scriptural-conviction-hastening-the-day-of-the-lord/
      http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/
      https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt-come-back-yet-according-to-the-new-testament/
      http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIdjGyMTAds
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM67orv8VkYF
      PDF:
      maranatha.pdf
    • By omharris
      “It’s not just that we don’t know our Bible but that we have so fragmented, dissected, and compartmentalized the Bible that we have lost sight of its great overarching story.”
      Hugh Whelchel i
      Occasionally I ask myself, what motivates me to write. In response, I would have to say it's religious opposition and a deeply seated desire to see the church walking in truth. The idea of walking in truth, in my mind, means a church that is trained appropriately in the Word. I don't see that happening at any of the churches I have been a part of.
      An aspect of that opposition recently occurred as a “brother” in Christ, told a friend of mine, that I believe life has to be one-way, mine. Have you read any of my posts? Do I present myself like that? Hardly, I attempt to show God's word as the only basis for truth, and, in a manner that people can understand. I suppose, to some degree, that means adding my commentary to what I write in an effort to promote understanding, but leaving the decision-making process to the reader, as they accept or reject God's word. With that understanding you are not rejecting me, you are denying God's truth and mercy, as you refuse what God's word says.
      Elijah, the prophet, bemoaned his situation and cried out that he was alone in Israel.
      1 Kings 19:9-10 NASB Then he came there to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and He said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" 10) He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away."
      And yes, that is the way I feel some days. God's response.
      1 Kings 19:18 NASB "Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."
      I realize that I am not alone, but the number of those who are passionate about God are few. I am fortunate to sit with a few of them on a weekly basis.
      Having had someone say of me, “he believes it has to be, his way or no way,” is somewhat like a slap in my face, and I can tell you I am highly intolerant of actions like that. So, why would someone say something like that about me? Perhaps it is because I am very passionate about truth and God's word.
      Sending everyone to hell at the Great White Throne has nothing to do with truth; it merely demonstrates how adamant this man is about judgment, something we are to leave to Jesus, [especially since ALL judgment has/or will be given to Him.]
      The Apostle Paul was not put off by the scholars of the Berean community. In fact, he thought highly of them. This body of believers did their research and found that Torah and Tanakh validated what Paul was saying. Having legitimized Paul's statements they believed. When you consider the limited resources, these men had, our accolades for them should be even more significant.
      Let me give you an example of what this opposition to, and the rejection of, the truth looks like.
      The man who leads the Monday morning study, once again pointed out that he was an ordained Bible study leader, not a pastor. As the leader, he has just about every week, exclaimed that everyone brought to the Great White Throne judgment is sent to hell. If you are a reasonable student of the Bible you should be asking, is that a correct statement? The answer is NO, but why would you know that?
      Because you have read the Word of God, as you should; you looked at the context; compared alternate texts and scenarios, and, like a hungry pet who has, awaited you to come home so they can eat, chewed on and ingested every word so that you could understand the depth and meaning of the Greek words being used and their Hebrew origins. But here is where the problem lays, as statistically, no one does that?
      The statistical work I am going to show you were undertaken by Lifeway Research in 2014. Here is an excerpt from Christianity Today.ii
      “Some Stats to Consider
      Bible Reading
      Americans read the Bible on occasion—churchgoers a little more. In a recent LifeWay Research study, we learned the following about our Bible reading habits among church attendees. They indicated that they read their Bible as follows:
      19% - Every day
      26% - A few times a week
      14% - Once a week
      22% - At least once a month
      18% - Rarely or never.
      There are a couple of interesting takeaways from this study. Almost 60% of churchgoers open our Bibles at home during the week at least once. And for every person who is reading his/her Bible every day (19%), someone isn’t… at all (18%).”
      Do you think, in this condition of apostasy, that the numbers would improve any as time progresses?
      I was pondering this idea before pulling up the statistical information. My guess/estimate would have been about 20% of the “church” actually reading their Bibles every day. But even then I could see a problem with that number because I sit with some of these 20% per-centers, and know for a fact that they will not move off their traditional interpretations and understandings regardless of what you show them in scripture. Are you beginning to see a problem? Illiteracy has no option but to run rampant through the church; And, it is not just the church. I just read yesterday, 5/10/2018, that schools have found they are going to have to take down the analog clocks on the schoolhouse walls and replace them with digital clocks because no one can read them.
      Let's go back to the significant false teaching of the morning “bible” study – how that everyone coming before the Great White Throne goes to a fiery hell.
      The first question is: how does one study the Bible? It seems to me that everyone should know how to do this; in truth, I had to learn how.
      Every student should:
      Read the text without a premise.
      As you read ask, what is this passage supposed to be saying to me?
      Do not merely assume that the teacher standing before you, saying things like, “What Paul is saying here,” is the truth. [Here is a heads up. Paul, a former Pharisee, a man who was very skillful at what he did, had no problem speaking to JEWS, about this new life and grace found in Christ. This is the case as Saul/Paul spoke about the Hebrew wording within the Law and the Prophets and pointed out the evidence in those words, which led to an understanding, in those who chose to listen, that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah they longed for. Paul made it clear that our acceptance of Yahshua brought about this life and the hope we have come to understand.]
      The idea of reading without a premise can be applied to my pastor's sermons since he has a motive and a point to be made. In pushing his motive, he has created a premise and is working to make the scriptures fit his premise. These directed efforts often work in opposition to my understanding of Bible study.
      Look at the context.
      An example of this applies to what I am going to analyze momentarily – Matthew 25, where we see the sheep and the goats at the throne of judgment. The context surrounding this word picture begins in Matthew 21, when Jesus rides into Jerusalem, on the back of an unridden donkey – the Rolls Royce of the day, and He is perceived as the Messiah Israel hoped for. Unfortunately, He did not do what the disciples, nor the people expected, as He overturned the sellers tables, chairs, and loosed their merchandise where they had been selling, in the court of the Gentiles. And then, Jesus got into a verbal confrontation with the elders and Pharisees. All this activity shook the disciples and prompted them to ask, “when will all these things come to pass, and what will be the sign of your coming as the Messiah.
      I am always analyzing the scriptures even as the pastor speaks. I examine the context and what the interlinear Greek or Hebrew dictionary says the words mean. Occasionally, the pastor is preaching in opposition to what the words mean. As a side note: Pastor and I had a bad moment one day, as he challenged me about my intensive focus on end times and the eschatology books of the Bible. In his indictment of me, he said, “Notice how in my sermons, I present the gospel in a manner that brings about change in people.” I try not to overthink the pastor's words that day, but isn't that what the Word of God is supposed to do, change people?
      Look for a comparative text.
      Many of the Calvary Chapel pastors, like Don Stewart or the late Chuck Smith, used to say, “allow scripture to define scripture.” What does that mean? As I read the Revelation, I see where John, on two occasions, in speaking to the churches, uses the term the Synagogue (Rev 2:9, Rev 3:9.) Why is this significant? Because John, was not writing in code as some would ascribe, he was writing to Jewish converts/followers of Christ. And therefore, spoke in a language they would immediately understand. Greek, of course, was one aspect of this language but the other carried the oral history and word stories from the Old Testament. The evidence for this is rather extensive and is demonstrated in the writings of James (James 2:2) and the Apostle Paul. Read Acts 18. In every city we find Paul entering the local Synagogue and preaching. For over fifteen years Paul preached, almost exclusively, to Jews. It was only after years of abuse at the hands of religious Jews that Paul finally said, and I am taking this message to the Gentiles.
      The Apostle John, James, Peter, and Paul focused their attention on the Jewish community. Peter, although he had a brief exchange with the Roman Centurion's family, maintained, as did James and John, a focus on Jews. [Read Paul's account in Galatians 2,] Many of these believed for years that this gospel of Jesus was meant exclusively for Jews. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:10 says,
      “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” NASB
      This passage has clear and definite associations with Isaiah 13:9; Jeremiah 46:10 among others.
      In conjunction with the idea of comparative texts, was the indication that everything, aside from direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, came out of the Torah and Tanakh. Paul's letters; James words on wisdom, and the Revelation that John conveyed, all came from the Old Testament. We can put this idea of comparative texts into action where Revelation speaks of a multi-headed beast with crowns and horns (Revelation 13:1). This imagery is found in multiple locations but primarily in the words of the prophet Daniel (Daniel 7:7).
      Matthew 25:31-45, where we see the sheep and goats, is a comparative text. The words Jesus spoke were in response to questions His Jewish disciples ask him, and those words made sense to a Jewish audience. If you had been a student in Synagogue school you were expected to memorize the Old Testament teachings. Therefore, one might expect that these people were looking for these events to happen.
      Try to take in as much of the background wording into consideration as you can.
      When I look at Matthew 25:31-45 in the NASB, the segment that speaks of the sheep and goats carries the headline, The Final Judgment. That headline in itself gives me nothing of value except as a reference point. If I were looking for a direct association to the final judgment, there is nothing within these verses that define this explicitly by using that terminology.
      Can I find an inference of final judgment in verse 31?
      Matthew 25:31 NASB "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
      Here you see the Son of Man coming in His glory.
      This is the same Jesus that Stephen saw, as he stood before the Jewish council (Acts 7:55-56,) and it is the same Jesus that Daniel saw in Daniel 7:13.
      And, He will sit on His glorious throne.
      There is a passage in Joel 3:12 that would cause the audience listening to the speaker that day to take note. Joel 3:12 LITV Let the nations be awakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat. For there I will sit to judge all the nations all around.
      This passage in Joel can easily be associated with the judgment we are about to see in Matthew 25. These two points alone do not convince me, as we see Jesus coming in Revelation 19 prior to Him being seated for judgment, and, there is no account of Him sitting upon His throne in Revelation 19.
      To be honest, I have to stretch my mind a bit to see the final judgment. However, if I look at the next verse, the finality suddenly becomes clearer, especially if I have an understanding of Joel 3:12. [Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all the nations;]
      There is only one glorious throne.
      Is this the same throne that we see in Revelation? We have to look at Revelation 20:11 and see if there is something here that matches.
      Revelation 20:11 NASB Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
      A great white throne
      Our only references to a white throne come from 1 Kings 10:18 and 2Ch 9:17, and they are effectively the same story
      1 Kings 10:18 NASB Moreover, the king made a great throne of ivory and overlaid it with refined gold.
      Ezekiel tells us what he saw, Ezekiel 1:26 NASB Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.
      lapis lazuli - Sapphire - Clear heavenly blue. Apparently, the color is insignificant.
      In 1Kings 10:18 it is clear that this is a great throne, and in Daniel 7:9 Daniel sees the throne as being fiery flames.
      Although you don't see this happening in Matthew 25, Revelation 20:7-8 tells us that after the thousand years, Satan is released from his prison and he deceives the nations. Those nations, in turn, surround the city of God in an attempt to kill God and His people. Those gathered are killed in an instant. The next event scripture shows us is the gathering of the nations, or, as Matthew 25 puts it, the dead are brought before this great throne.
      Although my methods of sorting out what I read, and disseminating the false teachings I hear, might be different than what you learn in seminary, they work for me. You also just got the added benefit of some insight into a false teaching that seems to enjoy sending all who approach the throne of judgment, to hell. A serious look at scripture will demonstrate that such a teaching is blatantly false and damaging to our understanding of who God is.
       
       
      iThe Church’s Secret: Biblical Illiteracy in the 21st Century, Hugh Whelchel, writing for the Institute for Faith, Work, and Economics. March 13, 2017. https://tifwe.org/the-churchs-secret-biblical-illiteracy-in-the-21st-century/
      iiBiblical Illiteracy by the Numbers Part 1: The Challenge
      https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2014/october/biblical-illiteracy-by-numbers.html
    • By omharris
      I primarily use the NASB, but occasionally I find it deficient; I will insert other translations if they can clarify the context. Those translations will be duly noted.
      Chapter one was an appropriate greeting, but chapter two stands alone and begins to immediately address fears that have come as the result of some false teaching.
      This theme was not a new to Paul as he had written to the Christ-followers in Thessalonica on a previous occasion.
      1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB 13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16) For the Lord, Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
      Considering the years between these two letters, the new members that had been added to the church body, and the addition of some false teachings, the fear has had a chance to creep in. I see the effects of false teachings frequently in the church bodies I have had dealings with, as people espouse things they know so little about; all the while continuing to cloud the issue.
      So let's dissect the passages and see if we can understand all that Paul is trying to say.
      2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NASB 1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
      “with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,”
      Coming – is the Greek word parousia; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked.) Strong's concordance.
      In the explanation above I see two distinctly different things.
      One being Jehovah's return in the clouds to catch His church away. This catching away is called the harpazo, but it is also known as the advent or return.
      The second possible understanding is this idea of the punishment of Jerusalem or the wicked. This concept pertains to the wrath of God being poured out. One of the keys to understanding the difference between Jesus return for His church and His coming as the conquering Messiah hangs on this phrase - " the day of the Lord.” Using the NASB concordance, the expression shows up in 22 verses. 18 of those references are found in the Old Testament. Since the Tenach is designed for a Jewish audience then the language and references are expressly Jewish; that means that the phrase – the day of the Lord, is almost exclusively about the return of the Messiah.
      Of the four verses left and found in the New Testament, three of them are exclusively about the catching away of the church. This catching away is that time when Jesus comes back in the clouds for His church, and they will be caught up to meet Him in the air. 2Peter 3:10 leans more toward the time of the end, as it tells us that, “the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” While all of these things are a part of the seven-year period the implications are that this will happen almost all at once when Jesus returns to the earth for the final time. You see, this is one of those areas that are not that black and white.
      So, let's see if the context of the passage answers the question about when this event will happen.
      While I understand that Paul was addressing the body of believers in Thessalonica (a primarily Jewish audience,) these words also apply to us. I do not hear this complaint or question anymore, but I am aware that many do believe that Christ has already returned. If that is the case, what are we doing and why are we wasting our time?
      But Christ has not already returned. How do I know that? Well there are markers, or some might think of them as guideposts along the way, and Paul spells them out.
      2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 NASB 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
      “The apostasy comes first.”
      Since apostasy means a falling away, I ask you, has that happened? Absolutely, and at an exponential rate.
      “and the man of lawlessness is revealed,”
      I want to show you some alternate readings.
      This second selection is from the Complete Jewish Bible, and it translates this passage entirely different from anyone else. Why is this significant? Because even the Muslims have prophecies, and one of them describes such a man;
      2 Thessalonians 2:3 Darby Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
      2 Thessalonians 2:3 CJB Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
      A man who is a descendant of Aaron –
      The priests were to come from the lineage of Aaron. Since we know that the temple will be rebuilt, then practically every preparation would have to be made at this point, for a high priest to be installed. He then would be the one to enter the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of the lamb.
      The Muslim prophecies tell us that this Jew will reject the Torah, pay homage to the Mahdi, and follow him.
      Do you grasp the depth of this action? Many who have esteemed this Jew enough to appoint him as the high priest over the new temple will be deceived, turn from the true God, and follow his actions as they too will bow to the Mahdi in worship. This Mahdi appears to be the Islamic religious leader that will soon be saying peace peace. Most of this takes place 1260 days into the time of wrath upon the earth.
      I am always concerned that people will see my words as unbelievable.
      If, you are a follower of Jesus Christ, then, you are under a mandate to study to show not only, yourself, to be approved by God, but to judge the words being said to you, as to whether they are true or not. You are not doing this type of study to bash people, although I sometimes think that many should shut their mouths, but you are studying these things so that you can know what is right.
      Let me show you an example: I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, regardless of the poor choice of words we traditionally use. Although there is a voluminous amount of those in opposition to this understanding, I did my homework and became even more thoroughly convinced that Jesus is coming back for His church that is waiting for Him, and, He is going to do so before God's wrath is poured out upon the earth.
      Specific reasons why I believe in a pre-wrath rapture.
      Matthew 3:7 NASB But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
      The obvious thing I see here is that Jesus just acknowledged that it is purposeful to flee from the wrath, and, that there is wrath coming.
      Luke 21:23 NASB ... for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
      Here we can see that the intended target is the land and these people. Now the statement, "o this people" is relatively generic and needs some clarity. Luke 21:24 NASB tells us that “they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;”
      It is easy enough to see that a part of this fulfillment comes upon Israel and it's people, the Jews. However, pay attention, and you can see one other group, the Gentiles. The Gentiles and the nations are the same. If you are not a Jew, and you are a follower of Christ, then you have been engrafted into the vine and no longer fall under the category of being a Gentile in God's eyes.
      Those with a veil over their eyes will not get this concept. Since we are “in Christ” then we are part of the church and not subject to this wrath.
      Romans 1:18 NASB For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
      What is evident to me is the terminology, the wrath of God. Pay attention to the words being used and upon whom they are directed. Romans 1:18 can be taken as a somewhat broad spectrum statement.
      An example of this broad spectrum idea – I know a man who came to church for a time and did all the appropriate things. He came down front, cried his eyes out, made sorrowful and repentant statements. Why he even got baptized in a swimming pool as a symbol of this new and changed life he wanted to live. That didn't last long. Does he belong to God and is therefore not going to be subject to this wrath because he is part of the church. I do not know, because any fruit he produces is rotten and stinks before it falls off the tree. This pattern has been going on for years.
      Ephesians 2:3 NASB Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
      The Apostle Paul taught that we were formerly children of wrath, and no longer subject to the “wrath of God.”
      1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB 10) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
      1 Thessalonians 1:10 is one of the most specific examples that Paul gave us. Since we are in Christ, Jesus has rescued us from the wrath that is to come.
      1 Thessalonians 5:9 NASB 9) For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
      Many think that we deserve punishment. Well, that might have been true, but as followers of Christ, we are of those who have agreed to and accepted His salvation. You see, you need to have a firm grasp on what Jesus did. I am continually trying to remind people that all sins were forgiven – past, present, and future. Then what are people being punished for? Look at what Colossians 3:5-6 tells us,
      Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. 6) For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, NASB
      Simply put, you either follow Jesus, or you follow the god of this world, Satan. He will go to an eternal punishment, as will all those who choose to follow him. This punishment, as many want to believe, is not the end-all statement, as God is a merciful God beyond everything else; ask Jonah. And that is why we have the sheep and goats of Matthew 25. Take the time to study that.
      Revelation 6:14-17 NASB 14) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15) Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16) and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
      There are three things I want you to see here. Verse 15 gives us a description of some of the people affected by what is happening: kings of the earth; great men; commanders; the rich and strong, and every slave and free man. No one upon the earth is left unscathed by what is coming.
      In verse 16 we see them crying out to be hid from the presence of “Him who sits on the throne, AND from the wrath of the Lamb. This lamb is Jesus Christ. Since I used an example from the Revelation, let me point something out to you. This entire book is a Revelation of Jesus Christ. Even the rich, in this scenario, understood that God played a hand in this, and at the same time, they are acknowledging Jesus. It's all about Jesus.
      And the last thing, although I have already intimated it, is that this wrath is coming from God/Jesus.
      Since we are going to be like Bereans, a people who had enough sense to verify that what Paul was teaching was right, what then do we use as a basis for what is true? Keep in mind, that the Bereans did not have Bibles, they had some scrolls. Those scrolls were so valued that only a limited number of priests could handle them, and so the Torah and Tanakh were read aloud. This idea of scrolls changes the whole idea of Bible study. The Bereans had no New Testament, it was being spoken in their ears by Paul and lived out right in front of them. I, on the other hand, have over thirty translations of the Bible on my computer, and over forty commentaries that I can glean from. I have no excuses.
      The answer to the question is The Word of God. Now, since we know that there are errors across translations, is it wise to merely open the NIV for example, read it, and then say, “this is how that is supposed to be understood!” NO, because, as I said, there are errors. (Do not for a moment think that these errors are on God's part, as God's wisdom has been substantiated by His ability to get His message across plainly to those who choose to pursue this wisdom.)
      So, what am I saying to you? Be open but alert; trust the Holy Spirit to guide you; judge everything against the word of God, and, remove yourself, if you can, from false teachers. They will corrupt you with the simplest of things, such as David conquering Goliath when David was only four foot tall. That is not even close to the terminology used in the descriptions of David. King Saul, who knew David well for David was his ARMOR bearer, called him a youth. But what does that mean? Are these things critical to the story? NO, but if you are willing to build false images about the nature and character of David, what else will a false teacher do with God and His word.
      I can tell you what some will do, for I have experienced this first hand. These false teachers send everyone that comes to the Great White throne judgment to hell. There is nothing about that scenario that definitively points to that happening; these same teachers refuse to see that Matthew 25 and the story of the sheep and the goats, is just another picture of the Great White Throne. In other words, they will twist the gospel so tightly that in time, you will not be able to understand what is true.

       

       

       
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