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Brother Duke

Revelation and the Study of Woe

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Speculating, one might think these are very young, preteens perhaps. In this age to be a virgin and blameless and so honest no lie was found? Not gonna be 20 somethings. IMO.

I know it says they are virgin males but I do not know if all these attributes are physical.  These people may be virgins because they never strayed to foreign gods or believed in pagan traditions.   Also when they are sealed with the Holy Spirit God says he will forget their faults so maybe that is why they are blameless.

1Ki 19:18 "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Noooo.... that screen name is, Daniel 11:36 3"The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods...."

 

Relax, it was a TYPO.

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm convinced this passage from Matt 16 is a metaphor for death and the grave.  It's not about spiritual battle, Jesus is saying death and the grave will not overpower the His people, they will be resurrected. Pretrib always has to make up some grand narrative about any straw they can grasp. 

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand the Rapture as before the 70th week is just not being very perceptive in all reality brother. 

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21 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand the Rapture as before the 70th week is just not being very perceptive in all reality brother. 

Rev 19 is at the end of the week.  The rapture happens just before the marriage.

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6 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Rev 19 is at the end of the week.  The rapture happens just before the marriage.

God has given me all things Revelation, its not a braggadocious statement, I put a lot of time, study and prayer into these thing as God called me unto this over 30 years ago, then I didn't get much until 5 years ago, all of the sudden its like a switch turned on full blast. 

Revelation 19 is a "Parenthetical Citation" its not a part of the chronological order of the book of Revelation. The Bride marries the Lamb then returns to Armageddon with Jesus as Conquerors (White Horses stands for CONQUERING see the First Seal). 

We see the bride in Rev. 5:9 and in Rev. 7:9 with their White Robes on, so Rev. 19 starts before these two events that we see, we know this because they are not married to start off Rev. 19 and they then RECEIVE their (our) White Robes. When we Return to Armageddon, (well we know that actually happened in Rev. ch. 16) it is not a real time event as per Rev. 19 being a part of the Chronological order of things. Thus it seems to confuse the masses. I will give the the actual order of Revelation, then the Parenthetical Citations which are many.

The Chronological Order of the book of Revelation: 

1.) Chapters 1-3 is of course the 7 Churches of Asia-Minor, some say it represents the full Church Age.

2.) Chapters 4-5 is the Church shown in Heaven having already married the Lamb, this is just before the Midway point of Tribulation on earth.

3.) Chapters 6, 7, 8, 9 and 16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments on all Mankind/Earth/Babylon I think chapter 16 should be placed right after chapter 9, it could very well have gotten jumbled/misplaced along the way. Matters not, I still understand THE ORDER. 

4.) Chapters 20, 21 and 22 are the Judgment seat to the Martyrs on earth and the hereafter/New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22. THE END, or should I say the New Beginning that lasts forevermore. Amen.

5.) Chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, (15 might go with Chapter 16, in other words it might be one chapter) 17, 18 and 19 are all Parenthetical Citations or set-a-sides that are not a part of the Chronological order of the book of Revelation. If chapter 16 came after chapter 9 then STRANGELY ENOUGH, chapter 10 with the Mysterious Book of thunders MIGHT belong with the Chronological Order since it conveys that TIME WILL BE NO MORE [as we know it of course] once the 7th Trumpet sounds, which means the 3rd Woe will be open mankind. The end thereof is Babylon Falling, Jesus taking over.  

Lets look at these set-a-side chapters that mostly start at the Midway point of Tribulation/70th Week/Jacobs Troubles at the 1260 event, which is Jesus opening the First Seal. Chapters 12, 13, 17 and 18 start at the 1260 Event where the Anti-Christ comes forth via the First Seal. The Woman (Israel, Rev. 12) Flees from the Anti-Christ whom the Red Dragon (Satan) uses to come after her just like he used Herod to try to kill the male-child (Jesus). She is thus protected for 1260 days !! 

The Beast (Rev. 13) arises out of the Sea meaning he Conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region just like all the other Six Beasts did (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome). Jesus releases him to go forth at the First Seal or the 1260 Event via Daniel chapter 12 where the holy peoples power is scattered, meaning they are Conquered. So this also like Rev. ch. 12 happens during Revelation chapter 6. (Middle of the Week).

Rev. 17 is All False Religion being Destroyed. That is what the Harlot is, so the Beast and his 10 Kings destroy her via Revelation 17:16, she is judged. But of course this is in the Anti-Christ's original plans, hes going to take out ALL RELIGIONS so he can be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD, thus hes going to destroy Islam and ALL RELIGIONS !! Thus God uses his own heart to judge all False Religion save the last one which God Himself will destroy. The False Prophet is brought in to replace the old Harlot System of many false religions. Hes the BEAST OVER RELIGION, just like the Anti-Christ is the BEAST OVER GOVERNMENTS. This all happens in the Middle of the Week, of the 1/4 of all mankind that dies this Islamic horde is a large chunk, Islam will thus be wiped out as the Beast comes forth via the Four Horses. (Rev 6).

Rev. chapter 18 also starts during Revelation chapter 6 at the First Seal, it has to, because Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD being hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues of God. It starts with the very First Seal and runs all the way unto the 7th Vial in Rev. chapter 16. GET IT? The Religious Harlot (Rev.17:7) RIDES the Government Beast !! The Government Beast decides to take over (Rev. 17:16) the Religious aspect and wants a ONE WORLD RELIGION where the Government Beast or Its LEADER is Worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! The Harlot s Burned, she is thus NO MORE !!

That brings us to the Rev. chapter 18 results of these plagues which last 1260 Days or 3.5 years which = The Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath which rains down on Babylon (Whole World under Satan's Leadership or Satan's Dark Kingdom). Verse 2 says Babylon has fallen and become the Habitation of Devils. Well of course it has, Satan and his Demon minions have been cast out of Heaven and down to earth and Apollyon and his Demon hordes have been released from the Bottomless Pit !! Then verse 4 says "Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her PLAGUES !! This is God at the 1260 Event calling the 1/3 of the Jews who have repented to Flee Judea so they do not PARTAKE in the PLAGUES that are about the hit Babylon the Great (The Whole World). Verse 5 then says her sins have reached Heaven, thus Gods bowls of Wrath are filled up, now we see the RESULTS in the rest of the chapter what the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments will bring upon earths inhabitants. 

So now we see these Plagues DESTROYS her Commerce !! Of course that would happen, more on that latter. Verse 8 says her Plagues come in ONE DAY (Day of the Lord = 3.5 Years) and verse 10 says Babylon's Judgment will come in ONE HOUR. Well in Rev. 17:12 we see that the Kings Rule with the Beast for ONE HOUR also and we know the Beast is a Beast for 42 Months, so ONE HOUR = 42 Months. The Day of the Lord lasts from the First Seal unto the 7th Vial which = 1260 Days which = 42 months which = 3.5 years which = ONE HOUR !!  

In verse 9 the Kings that committed fornication with her CRY & LAMENT her Burning, but the Same Kings HATED the Harlot !! They are---Two Different Entities. Of Course Babylon burns, all of the Grasses burn and a 1/3 of her Trees via the First Trumpet sounding in Rev. ch 8. Then in Rev. 18:11 we see THIS: Rev. 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Of course they don't, 1.5 to 2 Billion people have just been killed via the Four Horses (All of the Anti-Christ's doings) there is a HUGE Earthquake, Stars falling to earth (which I think is Satan being cast out of Heaven), the the grasses and trees burn, and the other Trumpets poison 1/3 of the waters, kill 1/3 of the sea creatures (think Fish/Shrimp), 1/3 of the ships are destroyed, the 1st WOE is a Demon horde hurting/maiming mankind for 5 Months, the 2nd WOE is an Angelic Army IMHO, who slay 1/3 of all mankind that remains probably another 1.5 Billion people. Of course the 3rd WOE is ALL SEVEN VIALS. Thus the Commerce, as you can see, will no doubt be DESTROYED by the Plagues. Babylon = The Whole World being Destroyed by Gods Wrath and thus Jesus will take over Satan's Dark Kingdom which is Babylon. Rev. 16:19 tells us that God sees the Nations that are Defeated at Armageddon as BABYLON !!

Rev. chapter 11 starts before the 1260 Event. The Two-witnesses show up at the 1335 Event, the 1290 Event is the Abomination of Desolation. Each Event and the Number of Days which in turn = the Number of days left from SAID EVENT until Jesus' Second Coming. Thus the BLESSED EVENT is the Two Witnesses showing up 1335 days from the Second Coming 45 days before the AoD and 75 days before the First Seal is opened and the Anti-Christ is thus RELEASED at the Day of the Lord.........REMEMBER, Malachi 4:5-6 says that Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord. So the Two-Witnesses show up BEFORE the 1260 Event, at the 1335 Event, they are the Blessing Daniel chapter 12 speaks of. Blessed is he that comes unto the 1335. Of course its a Blessing when Elijah and probably Moses show up !! BOOM, Praise God !!

Rev ch. 11 runs for 1260 days, the Two-witness arrive before the Beast so when they DIE at the 2nd Woe and the Beast dies at the 7th Vial (end of 3rd Woe) that makes PERFECT SENSE since they both must hold their offices 1260 days. They come 75 days before the Beast arrives and they die 75 days before the Beast dies !! However, chapter 11 covers the FULL 1335 Days, their Prayers must usher in the Last Woe also, and thus we see Jesus TAKING OVER in Rev. 11 after the 7th Trumpet sounds which represents the 3rd WOE which is All Seven Vials. So when the 7th Trumpet sounds it represents the Vials having come to pass !! And Jesus takes over !! Babylon has fallen. Just like Rev. 14 is the Harvest and the Angel utters Babylon has fallen, ITS THE SAME EVENT, different happenings, and a different perspective, SAME EVENT !!

Rev. 14 is the Harvest, we see Jesus on the Clouds for the First Harvest (Rapture) in verse 14, then we see at the end of the chapter where Babylon is Destroyed via Armageddon. The Harvest of the Wicked comes after the Harvest of the Church, save Israel whom God protects in the Wilderness, hence they are the WHEAT and the Wicked Ones on earth are the TARES, they both remain on earth until the end, the Wicked are BOUND into Grave where they will remain for 1000 years and then at the Second Resurrection they will be Judged all at one time. 

Rev. 19 starts at the Rapture and pretty much and covers the Full 7 Years of the Church in Heaven, then shows us Returning with Jesus Christ. In Rev. 4:1 when John is called up to Heaven, guess what John will indeed be called to Heaven from the Grave at that point in time like the rest of the dead who sleep and those who are alive at the time of the Rapture. So Rev. 19 is NOT AT THE END per se, as you suppose its at the beginning, the Church is seen in Rev. 5:9 and 7:9 with our White Robes on. Then we are seen in Rev. 19 coming back to earth with Jesus, we are at the Marriage Supper which is Armageddon. The Fowls in Rev. ch. 19 are the EAGLES Jesus spoke of as per being where the CARCASS is in Matthew 24:28, that is the Church brother. We will be in Armageddon. 

This took way longer than I intended, LOL.

Edited by Revelation Man

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20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So I take it you are a Messianic Jew, God bless brother. 

I see now where you got that from my comments, but no, I am English, Scottish, and Swedish. I'm about as gentile as it gets. 😁  That was the ancestry I was referring to.

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand the Rapture as before the 70th week is just not being very perceptive in all reality brother. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, in the past I taught, as most other pre-tribulationists do, that Matt 24:31 was a gathering of the Jews at the end of “the Tribulation Period” when Jesus fights against the Beast and the nations that follow him as described in Revelation 19.

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

However, upon greater examination of the associated texts, the future event that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 verses 29 thru 31 bears little resemblance to what John saw and recorded in Rev 19. To the contrary, the various elements of Matt 24:30-31 are found in Paul’s description of the first resurrection and rapture in 1 Thes 4:15-17.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Parousia

Notice that both Christ’s answer to the disciples on the Mount of Olives and Paul’s statement to the Thessalonians refer to the singular, future, coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ. Parousia is the Greek word used primarily as a technical term referring to the arrival and continuing presence of Jesus Christ. The word is found 24 times in the NT, 17 of those signifying the event of Christ’s future arrival and following presence.

Although the Greek word found in Matt 24:30 translated “coming” is a different word (erchomei) which refers to the action of Christ that is seen by the world (His movement through the heavens), which is just a part of the event (Parousia), the greater context makes it clear that the Parousia is in view.

Four times the word appears in Matthew 24:

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Both Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 describe the event (the Parousia) beginning to take place. However, Revelation 19:11-16 describes the Lord and the armies that follow Him far into the Day of the LORD. Notice that His vesture is already soiled with the blood of His enemies (Rev 19:13). It is also clear from the context that He is going forth to fight with the armies of the nations arrayed at Armageddon. This is the Antichrist’s last stand. After this, all the fighting will be over until the thousand years are finished when Satan is released from the bottomless pit to go forth once again to deceive the nations (Rev 20).

Matthew 24:30-31 is not describing the same activity as Revelation 19:11-21 but instead is describing the initial appearing of Christ at His Parousia on the Day of the LORD and the associated rapture or gathering of His elect to Him.

Paul refers to this appearance calling it Christ’s second time and mentioning that salvation is associated with it.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Physical or spiritual salvation

The salvation in question is physical deliverance consistent with the expectation of those saints who survive the great tribulation.

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The context of Mat 10:22 is right prior to the coming of the Son of man, Jesus Christ.

He comes in the clouds

Another difference between Matthew 24:30-31 and Rev 19:11-16 is the fact that upon His initial return Christ comes in the clouds of heaven. Luke tells us that the angels present at His ascension said he would return in this manner.

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

In His Revelation given to be recorded by John the Apostle, we read:

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This statement of John gives us three important points to take note of concerning Jesus’ return with clouds.

When “he cometh with clouds” every eye will see Him

This is consistent with Christ’s warning in Matt 24 not to believe the many false reports which shall come concerning His return.

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

He says that His return will be unmistakable. It will be like the lightning which stretches from one end of the sky to the other.

When “he cometh with clouds” those who pierced Him will see Him

“Those who pierced Him” is no doubt a reference to Israel. Zechariah the Prophet prophesied of a future day when all the families of Israel that remain would mourn upon seeing Him.

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11  In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12  And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13  The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14  All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

The revelation that comes to the minds of the formerly unbelieving families of Israel upon seeing Jesus in His glory causes them to mourn for Him.

When “he cometh with clouds” all kindreds of the earth shall wail

Isaiah describes the wailing of the earth dwellers upon seeing Christ in His glory.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

John describes their response to His revelation as one of fearful dread.

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There are many such statements from the Holy Scriptures. Jesus told the high priest at His trial that He would be seen coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar 14:62  ...ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Clouds are a detail closely associated with the catching up of the saints, but this is not so with the scene described by John in Rev 19:11-16. 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

The sound of a great trumpet

There is another detail that is associated with the catching up of the saints that is not found in the Revelation 19 passage, the sound of a great trumpet.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand that it has nothing to do with the arrival of Christ at His second coming is just not being very perceptive.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

 

Revelation Man, in the past I taught, as most other pre-tribulationists do, that Matt 24:31 was a gathering of the Jews at the end of “the Tribulation Period” when Jesus fights against the Beast and the nations that follow him as described in Revelation 19.

 

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

However, upon greater examination of the associated texts, the future event that Jesus describes in Matthew 24 verses 29 thru 31 bears little resemblance to what John saw and recorded in Rev 19. To the contrary, the various elements of Matt 24:30-31 are found in Paul’s description of the first resurrection and rapture in 1 Thes 4:15-17.

 

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

 

 

Mar 13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That would be because Matthew was no given the understanding of the Rapture, which Paul was given, nor the later understanding John was given via the Second Coming so why would they seem the same. as a matter of facts Matthew was given the Rapture so vaguely by Jesus, because Jesus had to give he fate of the Messianic Jews also, that he placed it from verse 36-51 showing he did not really understand it. And he was not meant to understand it, Jesus gave it to Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles. 

The point remains, Rev. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation rapture, read my LONG POST Above. I have a firm grasp on the book of Revelation. Matthew 24:29-31 is Jesus gathering the ELECT from the Four Corners of HEAVEN (Heaven) where we are gathered having just married the Lamb, Mark says from the Four Corners of heaven AND from EARTH which would include only the Jews who are protected in Petra as per on earth. 

1 Thees. is the Rapture, we go to meet Jesus in the Air/Sky. Then of course rev. 19 tells us what happens next.

44 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

The Parousia

 

Notice that both Christ’s answer to the disciples on the Mount of Olives and Paul’s statement to the Thessalonians refer to the singular, future, coming (Parousia) of the Lord Jesus Christ. Parousia is the Greek word used primarily as a technical term referring to the arrival and continuing presence of Jesus Christ. The word is found 24 times in the NT, 17 of those signifying the event of Christ’s future arrival and following presence.

 

Although the Greek word found in Matt 24:30 translated “coming” is a different word (erchomei) which refers to the action of Christ that is seen by the world (His movement through the heavens), which is just a part of the event (Parousia), the greater context makes it clear that the Parousia is in view.

 

Four times the word appears in Matthew 24:

 

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

 

 

Both Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 describe the event (the Parousia) beginning to take place. However, Revelation 19:11-16 describes the Lord and the armies that follow Him far into the Day of the LORD. Notice that His vesture is already soiled with the blood of His enemies (Rev 19:13). It is also clear from the context that He is going forth to fight with the armies of the nations arrayed at Armageddon. This is the Antichrist’s last stand. After this, all the fighting will be over until the thousand years are finished when Satan is released from the bottomless pit to go forth once again to deceive the nations (Rev 20).

 

Matthew 24:30-31 is not describing the same activity as Revelation 19:11-21 but instead is describing the initial appearing of Christ at His Parousia on the Day of the LORD and the associated rapture or gathering of His elect to Him.

 

Paul refers to this appearance calling it Christ’s second time and mentioning that salvation is associated with it.

 

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

Physical or spiritual salvation

 

The salvation in question is physical deliverance consistent with the expectation of those saints who survive the great tribulation.

 

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23  But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

The context of Mat 10:22 is right prior to the coming of the Son of man, Jesus Christ.

To be honest, people get too technical about the English verbiage seeing as the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, but then sometimes they also go overboard with things like this. Its pretty simple, Revelation ch. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew was not given the same understanding as John. Why would you think he would be? Its just conflating passages brother, all to try and prove there is no Pre-trib Rapture, even though there is. I suggest you start in Rev. 19 and explain how the Bride Marries the Lamb, then returns with Christ to defeat the Beast and his Armies, nothng else matters until you can get past that. I can over come any Mid or Post Trib theory. 

Matthew 10:22 is just like this.........Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  It has nothing to do with the END TIMES, its a misunderstanding by most people, it means one must ENDURE until the end of his life. Paul spoke about running the FULL RACE, these verses are not about the END TIMES, notice in 10:23 hes speaking to the Disciples about being Persecuted.

Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus to 70 AD. Mathew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age. Matthew 24:15-31 is the Tribulation period from the Abomination of Desolation to the SO CALLED Second Coming (Read John 20, Jesus has already Returned a Second Time). Matthew 36-51 is the Rapture and that happens after verse 14 and before verse 15, of course. So that verse you cited is about the Disciples life and times on earth brother. 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

He comes in the clouds

 

Another difference between Matthew 24:30-31 and Rev 19:11-16 is the fact that upon His initial return Christ comes in the clouds of heaven. Luke tells us that the angels present at His ascension said he would return in this manner.

 

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

In His Revelation given to be recorded by John the Apostle, we read:

 

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

This statement of John gives us three important points to take note of concerning Jesus’ return with clouds.

 

When “he cometh with clouds” every eye will see Him

 

This is consistent with Christ’s warning in Matt 24 not to believe the many false reports which shall come concerning His return.

 

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

He says that His return will be unmistakable. It will be like the lightning which stretches from one end of the sky to the other.

 

When “he cometh with clouds” those who pierced Him will see Him

There is always CLOUDS in the sky you are overthinking this, it only means hes coming in the SKIES, he will not be found in the DESERT or in the SECRET CHAMBERS as per Matt. 24 Thus Jesus is basically telling them DO NOT FALL FOR THE LIES, I will be coming from the Eastern Skies, this is why he says the ELECT can not be deceived, BEHOLD I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE[HAND]. Thus those Jews in the Wilderness/Petra know to STAY THERE, until Jesus comes in the Eastern Skies. The EAGLES (Church) will be where the CARCASS (Armageddon Carnage) is at just like the Marriage Supper of Revelation 19 shows, except the Church/Bride there are called FOWLS. That is the Second Coming, not the Rapture. 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

When “he cometh with clouds” those who pierced Him will see Him

 

“Those who pierced Him” is no doubt a reference to Israel. Zechariah the Prophet prophesied of a future day when all the families of Israel that remain would mourn upon seeing Him.

 

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11  In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12  And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13  The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14  All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

 

The revelation that comes to the minds of the formerly unbelieving families of Israel upon seeing Jesus in His glory causes them to mourn for Him.

Correct, the Jews are the only ELECT still on earth,  thus they are the Wheat and the Wicked people on earth are the TARES. Israel however have REPENTED way before this, they Repent when the Two-Witnesses show up at the 1335, and that's 75 days before the 1260 Event. Why do you think God PROTECTS THEM if they had not already repented? Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Beast Conquering Israel/Jews, Zechariah 14:3-4 is Jesus returning to save those that have already REPENTED back long ago SEE---Zechariah 12:10 and 13:1-5. 

 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

When “he cometh with clouds” all kindreds of the earth shall wail

 

Isaiah describes the wailing of the earth dwellers upon seeing Christ in His glory.

 

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

John describes their response to His revelation as one of fearful dread.

 

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

There are many such statements from the Holy Scriptures. Jesus told the high priest at His trial that He would be seen coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Mar 14:62  ...ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Clouds are a detail closely associated with the catching up of the saints, but this is not so with the scene described by John in Rev 19:11-16. 

 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

I just don't get the OVEREMPHASIS here on the Clouds, it only means Jesus will come back from Heaven next time. He will not be born of another Woman. The Anti-Christ will be born of a Woman. Rev. ch. 6 has NOTHING to do with the Second Coming, its just showing the Wrath of the Lamb/God has come, the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath last from the First Seal unto the 7th Vial or 3.5 Years. 

This looks like you copy and pasted. I find I learn more when I make my own arguments. I am not sure, it just looks that way. I used to do the same, nit I am not here to prove my points, but to learn from God, so I argue my own understandings, it has really helped me learn a lot more. Just a tip. 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

The sound of a great trumpet

 

 

 

There is another detail that is associated with the catching up of the saints that is not found in the Revelation 19 passage, the sound of a great trumpet.

 

 

 

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Anyone that reads Rev. 19 and doesn't understand that it has nothing to do with the arrival of Christ at His second coming is just not being very perceptive.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

All the "TRUMPET" is brother is Jesus' Voice reverberating. It is not a JUDGMENT TRUMPET, it is a Pattern if you study the 7 Feasts of Leviticus, the Feast of Trumpets always ended the HARVEST/Pentecost which = the Church Age. Then the Feast of ATONEMENT comes next and Israel needs to REPENT, and then the Feast of Tabernacles comes lastly, and Jesus TABERNACLES (Dwells) with Israel for 1000 years on earth. 

God Bless. 

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34 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

To be honest, people get too technical about the English verbiage seeing as the bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, but then sometimes they also go overboard with things like this. Its pretty simple, Revelation ch. 19 can not exist without a Pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew was not given the same understanding as John. Why would you think he would be? Its just conflating passages brother, all to try and prove there is no Pre-trib Rapture, even though there is. I suggest you start in Rev. 19 and explain how the Bride Marries the Lamb, then returns with Christ to defeat the Beast and his Armies, nothng else matters until you can get past that. I can over come any Mid or Post Trib theory. 

Matthew 10:22 is just like this.........Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  It has nothing to do with the END TIMES, its a misunderstanding by most people, it means one must ENDURE until the end of his life. Paul spoke about running the FULL RACE, these verses are not about the END TIMES, notice in 10:23 hes speaking to the Disciples about being Persecuted.

Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus to 70 AD. Mathew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year Church Age. Matthew 24:15-31 is the Tribulation period from the Abomination of Desolation to the SO CALLED Second Coming (Read John 20, Jesus has already Returned a Second Time). Matthew 36-51 is the Rapture and that happens after verse 14 and before verse 15, of course. So that verse you cited is about the Disciples life and times on earth brother. 

Hi Revelation Man,

Do you have any scripture or evidence that Matthew, Paul and John were not all given the same knowledge?  We only have the writings that have survived the ages.  Also all were anointed with the Holy Spirit.  They all had the same source of knowledge.    Matthew and John went from disciples to Apostles after being anointed.  Paul met Christ on the road to Damascus.  Christ taught the apostles a lot of information but much understanding did not come until after the Holy Spirit.  What would be the point of Christ only telling Paul about a pre-tribulation rapture?  God uses multiple witnesses for everything he does but on something so great as a pre-trib rapture he uses one source?  Also I do not see any reason why Rev. 19 would need to be a pre-trib rapture.

 

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The first thing the Lord will do is immortalize those who believe in Him

Then He will bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world of humans

This is scriptural and true

If you are one who does not believe this you have either been deceived or you are a deceiver

There is nothing else to be said about the issue so move on and believe what you want 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.” Thus, an increasing understanding, founded on the Gospels and never contradicting them, is to be expected through history. 2 – God wants men to cooperate his plans Even though God could do everything alone, by not waiting his followers to align their will to His will, still he wants men to decide to cooperate with Him, to proceed in His salvation Plan. For those who knows the Scriptures, it’s not needed to quote the countless times in which God waited for men to turn to Him, and adhere His plan, before making things happen. Because being a loving Father, he doesn’t force His will upon men. 3 – The importance of prayer and the Lord’s prayer Point 2 on cooperation between God and men, is one of the reasons why Jesus stressed so much the importance of prayer. To be short, we only quote some passages, but there are countless ones in the Gospels alone: (Matthew 7:7) “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” (John 16:24) “Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.” Of course, we need to make prayers aligned with God’s will. But even if something is already in God’s will, it’s really important for us to pray for it, because the Lord doesn’t want to force his gifts upon us, but He wants us to desire Him. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be any need for any prayer whatsoever. Now, what’s the only prayer that the Lord directly taught us? The Lord’s prayer. Let’s examine some passages: “your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” […] “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.” Now, let’s think about it, by knowing the Scriptures. When and how can the Lord completely fulfill these requests? Could they be fulfilled while we are still on earth? 4 – The Last Day It doesn’t take a leap of imagination, to realize that the Lord’s prayer promises will be fully fulfilled only with the Rapture and His Second Coming. [Even the only apparently not messianic request about the “bread”, is translated somewhere as “the bread of tomorrow”, thus indicating the bread of the Kingdom.] Now, it’s not a purpose of this work to choose which interpretation of the Second Coming is more Scriptural. Whatever it is, pre/post/multi/anti/tribulation,this is not the point here. The point is that only in the Last Day, the Lord will fully fulfill the Lord’s prayer requests. Now, are we aware of this? Are we, most Christians, praying that prayer with full intention and awareness, with the awareness that we are asking the Lord, according to His will, to shorten the days of His coming? It doesn’t seem like this awareness has been fully reached so far, but now the times may be arrived. Now this intention can be shared to Christians all over the earth. And it’s nothing new, it’s something fully Scriptural (2 Peter 3:12, Revelation 22:17, Revelation 22:20, Matthew 6:13), it’s just a better understanding of the power of our prayer in the name of Jesus. We are not predicting the day or the hour, and we’ll never try to do it. There is no needing of knowing the day nor the our, to ask the Lord to come quick, according to His will. How powerful would be this prayer, shouted by all His elects? What if some wise pastors could be able to share this intention to Christians all over the world, and all together we could pray “Come”, and “Deliver us from evil”, with the full understanding that we are asking for the Rapture, instead of passively waiting for it? This would be an unprecedented event in History, since so far most Christians have passively waited for it 5 – While in the world Asking for the rapture, doesn’t cut off any obligation for a true Christian life. Before Jesus returns, we’ll still have the obligation to love everyone, serve other people, improve the society, improve ourself, spread the Gospel. All of these commandments are in the Gospel and are immutable. At the same time, with this prayer, we clarify our intention to God, we tell Him that we are ready, and it is now time for our plans to align with His plans, and that we fully want and responsibly request His return for the elects. 6 – Warnings Unfortunately, there will always be some Christians who don’t really want the Lord to come soon. They are not excited at all about Heaven. Exactly like in these Parables: (Luke 14:15-20) “When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.” Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’ “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’ “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’ (Luke 19:14) "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' (John 12:43) “For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.” But other Christians who aspire to Heaven, would have no reason to not pray this prayer. In the worst case, it will have no effect. In the best case, how glad we will be, to see the Lord coming quickly for us. 7 – Avoid misconceptions Q: “Does praying the Lord to come quickly mean that we don’t trust His promise that He will come?” A: “Absolutely not. The Lord knew the future. He knew about the prayers from His elects, and that he wouldn’t wait to fulfill them. Exactly as in countless other situations, in which the Lord has waited for men to ask Him for what is good. (Matthew 15:21-28). We are sure that His promise will be fulfilled, but we want to be among the ones that have aligned with His will and asked Him to fulfill it quickly.” Q: “Are we forcing the Lord to do something not in His will? Doesn’t He know the Right Time?” A: “He knows the Right Time, and we don’t know according to which criteria He has decided it. But according to the prayer He taught, when He decided it, part of the weight for the decision, came from considering the prayers of His elects (2 Peter 3:12, Revelation 22:17, Revelation 22:20, Matthew 6:13, Luke 18:1-8). Exactly as in other situations, He gave importance and weight to the will of his disciples and prophets, when aligned to His will” Q: “Are Christians praying this prayer exempt to contribute to society, and to spend their lives serving others until the Lord come?” A: “Absolutely not. A real Christian will follow all Jesus words,not only ones about prayer,respect the laws of his country, and will spend His life helping other people, so that when the Lord will come, he will find him ready.” (Matthew 24:45-51) “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Q: “Will shortening the return of the Lord prevent some people from salvation?” A: “First off, remember that there will never be a moment on earth in which everyone will be Christian, before the rapture. It is not written anywhere. On the contrary, it is written about an increasingly diminishing of faith. Moreover, people who haven’t met Christ but are seeking for the Truth in their hearts, and are loving their brothers, will be likely raptured too. Exactly as some other righteous people like Socrates, will be raised in the last day, while evil people who are not seeking for repentance because they don’t have the seed of repentance in their hearts, will be left. Therefore, there is no such risk in shortening the day. Otherwise, the Lord wouldn’t have taught us this prayer.” Q:”What about theological and philosophical implications of this event Why someone is taken and someone else left?” A: “These are not treated here. They will be treated in other works, and some wise pastors will be able to answer this, by following the Scriptures” 8 – An unprecedented event If most Christian living today will share this intention, and pray together for it, this will be an unprecedented even in the history of the world. If the rapture happened centuries ago, it would have likely remained unexplained and not testified everywhere. But nowadays, thanks to technologies and to the Gospel spread everywhere, it will be testified to people of all nations, and everyone will know what happened. Now, our hope is that some wise Christian, who spent their lifes in the hope of Jesus’ Return, will actively spread this prayer and this intention among other pastors and Christians, so that all of us may be reunited under the Lord’s prayer, and pray together, with full intention and understanding and without the usual countless distractions and desires: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day the bread of the Day that is coming. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Maranatha. Our Lord, come!  
      9 - SOURCES:
      http://learnbibleprophecy.blogspot.it/2010/12/come-lord-jesus-maranatha.html
      https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/read/articles/can-we-hasten-the-second-coming-of-christ-15204.html
      http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/Hastening.Lords.Return.html
      http://christianteaching.org.uk/blog/eschatology/hastening-the-return-of-christ/#comment-32538
      http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/06/can-i-speed-up-return-of-jesus.html
      https://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/scriptural-conviction-hastening-the-day-of-the-lord/
      http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/
      https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt-come-back-yet-according-to-the-new-testament/
      http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIdjGyMTAds
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM67orv8VkYF
      PDF:
      maranatha.pdf
    • By Omegaman 3.0
      Things the Bible DOES NOT SAY about the End Times   Notice, that this list, does not establish any end times  theory, it tries to prove nothing. It does not even  attack a theory, or attempt to refute one.    What it does attempt to do, is to get people to ask  themselves, why they believe certain things, that the  Bible never says.   So basically, in between the lines I am asking:    If we believe certain things that are not stated in the scripture, and claim that we believe them because that is what scripture teaches, aren't we in principle adding to the words of scripture?   Furthermore, if we teach these things as though they are true, does that make us false teachers?   So, what things do I claim the Bible does not teach?  Following is a short list:   1. It does not say there will be a Rapture of the Church,  which occurs before the Great Tribulation.   2. It does not refer to a 7 year period as the Great Tribulation.   3. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is removed from the  Earth at any time during the Great Tribulation.   4. It does not refer to the Great Tribulation, as the wrath  of God.   5. It does not say that Jesus will return secretly or  invisibly to take His Church.   6. It does not say that no man will ever know the time (the day or hour) of His coming.
      7. It does not say that Jesus can return at any moment.   8. It does not say that Jesus will return like a thief in  the night for His church.   9. It does not say that believers will not be in the great  tribulation, or skip suffering and persecution, or even  death.   Now, am I wrong about anything on that list. If so, can you provide scripture citations that would make anything in the list a misstatement?   Thanks for your help!   P.S. Please try to stick to the actual topic, and provide us with the information which would show me to be in error, when I claim the bible does not express the ideas in the list. Also not, that in the thread that follows, other ideas that could be added to the list are these:   10. The Bible does not explicitly say the the Rapture is the Blessed Hope.   11. Jesus is not said to return as a thief in the night, in any context that necessitates a pre-tribulation return.   12. It is often said: The Rapture is Jesus coming for His church, the Second Coming is Jesus coming with His church. I think those definitions are workable, but the Bible does not say there is a multi-year interval between those events.   13. The Bible does not say, that there are 144,000 evangelists or witnesses, during the tribulation.   Helpful link to common verses applied to this topic
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