"Tribulation Saints" - A Fly in the Pretrib Ointment

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The Bible doesn't say that, at all. 

Way to misapply Scripture to an issue that it wasn't addressing.   Your approach sounds very Roman Catholic.

The truth is that Jesus was addressing the Jewish perspective on the Law of Moses wherein it was seen as the means of gaining eternal life.  In Jewish theological thought, the Law was likened to the fruit of the Tree of Life as well as living water. The Law was the spiritual food of the Torah observant Jew and it was through the study and application of the Law of Moses that eternal life was gained. 

Jesus set Himself up as the 'food and drink"  that leads to eternal life.  In doing so Jesus was claiming to be greater than the Law, greater than Moses and in fact, claiming to be God in that only God can offer eternal life.   

It has nothing to do with the Church as the Body of Christ.   

Until you can support what you say with relevant scripture, there's no reason that I or anyone else should pay any attention to your conjecture.

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Until you can support what you say with relevant scripture, there's no reason that I or anyone else should pay any attention to your conjecture.

I was addressing Scripture.  I was addressing the passage out of John.   It wasn't conjecture, at all.  It is how Jewish people, even today think of the Law of Moses.   It is well known in Jewish theology that the study of Torah gives a faithful Jew a place in the world to come.

We know that Jesus said in John 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Here are a couple of Jewish web pages that promote what I was talking about.  

The Torah as a tree of life:  https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/215515/jewish/The-Tree-of-Life.htm

The Torah as water: https://torah.org/torah-portion/dvartorah-5770-bamidbar/

So, it was not conjecture.

It's up to you to actually refute what I said.  If you don't have any facts to undermine what I said, it stands as true, by default.

[enoob57]

25 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Until you can support what you say with relevant scripture, there's no reason that I or anyone else should pay any attention to your conjecture.

we who study to show ourselves approved … ARE … by those who know the Scriptures
John 10:14 (KJV)

[14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

[15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

 

[Brother Duke]

12 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You are not asking anyone to die, but you believe, erroneously, that believers from the Church Age will go into the Tribulation.  The Tribulation Saints are not Church Age believers.  The problem is not persecution or the level of it.  The problem is with certain people who believe that the Church has to go through the Tribulation because of some kind of bogus belief that they have to be "tested."  Like God isn't wise enough to know who actually believes in Him or not.  The Church is not removed from the Earth before the Tribulation because it is special.  It is removed because it does not belong there.  The only reason anyone would believe the Church stays through the Tribulation is if they believe God is finished with Israel and isn't going to keep His promises to her.  The Church is not required for God to bring Israel to repentance.

I'm not talking about the persecution of believers during the Tribulation.  I'm talking about present-day people here, on this forum that preach "A Christian should be ready to die!" while they set in a country where the likelihood of it happening to them is extremely remote.  It's easy to get on an internet forum and say you'd willingly die for Jesus when you know the scenario in which that is a possibility is not going to happen in present-day Tulsa. 

I believe the church is grafted into Israel so Israel and the church are treated the same because they are the same.  Romans 11 talks all about the gentiles being grafted into Israel. 

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Brother Duke said:

I believe the church is grafted into Israel so Israel and the church are treated the same because they are the same.  Romans 11 talks all about the gentiles being grafted into Israel. 

The Church is grafted into Jesus Christ, not Israel. Israel will be grafted again later into Jesus Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Daniel 11:36]

The Church is grafted into Jesus Christ, not Israel

 

For sure

[JoeChan82]

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Back to the original question, which is where do all the believers during the tribulation come from if all believers are raptured out before Daniel's 70th week.  I have heard it said that verses 11 and 12 mean that if you hear the gospel preached with understanding prior to the rapture and then choose to reject it, you cannot get saved after the rapture.  Do you believe that last statement?  Jack Hyles and Curtis Hutson did. My pastor does. But does the bible say that? Nope. All it says is that God will send strong delusion to those who received not the love of the truth.

When does the strong delusion come in this context? When "that Wicked" is revealed.  When is that? Half way through Daniel's 70th week.

Please don't respond with "Read your bible" or "I'm right and you're wrong" or "You are confused". I, for one, know that I do not have all the answers. This is supposed to be an anonymous forum, which should allow us to debate without condescension or insult. 

[Brother Duke]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Church is grafted into Jesus Christ, not Israel. Israel will be grafted again later into Jesus Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

They are both grafted onto the root but they are called Israel.  Paul even says they are fellow citizens of the Common Wealth of Israel.

In Roman's 9:24-25 Paul quotes Hosea for the combined Jews and Gentiles.

Hosea is talking about Israel in that verse that Paul quotes.

Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved."

 

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

No, we get exactly what you are talking about

Apparently not.

10 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

And you haven't answered the following yet: if the Church is expected to go through the tribulation, then why just the Church alive today? Why not the whole Church from Pentecost on? Were believers from then not "worthy"? to die in the Tribulation? Did they "die natural deaths without orders from the Lord?" Are modern-day Church members "less holy" somehow and Christ's blood didn't wash them as well?

This is the kind of nonsense that results when people think that they're clever and start to exalt their own rationale above the word of God.

• Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” 

What is that to you?  Follow Jesus!  

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Back to the original question, which is where do all the believers during the tribulation come from if all believers are raptured out before Daniel's 70th week

 

Easy to answer .... there will be those in the tribulation period who will repent and turn to the Lord