The Olivet Discourse

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Let's refine this a little: the HORSE represents Warfare. There are Old Testament verses that show this.

The COLOR of the horse is what represents righteousness, and this is a BIGGIE! You cannot overlook this. God is simply not going to use white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something else in the same book!

This is a symbolic picture used by God to represent something else: in this case the church.

By the way, we know God has untold millions of horses in heaven! He has no shortage of horses. Those used in Zech. are probably still alive! Nothing dies in heaven.

We have the TIMING issue: the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. (proven by events in chapters 4 & 5)

We have the color of white.

We have a horse to represent conquering.

We have a crown to repesent ultimate victory.

We have a bow (toxon) to represent a weapon, but no arrows: the GOSPEL is the arrows.

let everything be established with two or three witnesses. We have 5.

First, you say this:

"It is a VERY weak argument on your side. If God chose to add some history (AND HE DID) He is all powerful and able to do it."

Then you turn around and say:

"The COLOR of the horse is what represents righteousness, and this is a BIGGIE! You cannot overlook this. God is simply not going to use white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something else in the same book!"

Why do you say that God is all-powerful and able to do whatever He wills, and then say that " NO, He is simply NOT going to do it"

If God chooses to, He can do whatever He wishes. Period!

Just because the color "white" is used 16 other times in the book of Rev., why do you assume that the rider on the "white horse" HAS to represent righteousness? What did Jesus tell us in Matt 24......"MANY will come in My name saying "I am the Christ and will mislead many". ...............

Since deception will be paramount in the last days, it makes complete sense that the rider on the white horse is the one who deceives, the one who misleads people, the one who claims to be Christ. If he were to ride on any other color of horse, his deception wouldn't work. The rider on the white horse will " go out conquering and to conquer"......which means spiritual warfare, to deceive, to mislead. Jesus warns us....."Behold, I have told you in advance."

The rider on the white horse is a deceiver. It's the Antichrist. ( MANY will come in My name saying "I am the Christ and will mislead many").............What better way to deceive people that to ride on a white horse,  which many know to be Jesus Himself riding on a white horse at the second coming. ( Rev 19:11 )

The few commentaries that I found that claim the rider on the white horse is the gospel going forth since 32 AD, are from SDA. Uraih Smith pushes this "theory".

You stated:  

"We have a bow (toxon) to represent a weapon, but no arrows: the GOSPEL is the arrows."

You need to explain this one.

You say that the first seal is the Gospel going forth. 

The rider on the horse has a "bow".......which you say represents a "weapon"...........

But NO ARROWS.

Then you say that the Gospel represents the ARROWS????????

But the rider on the white horse ONLY has a BOW......NO arrows??????????

Makes no sense. 

 

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I see just the opposite.  Bows are more of a weapon for ranged combat.  There is no direct contact and the identity of the attacker is often unknown, like a sniper.  The arrows are the lies and deception which we have been warned of.  They are shot from the spiritual realm and where they are coming from is hidden from view.  The first horse rider is more likely the beast who comes up out of the abyss (Daniel 7, Rev 17).

• And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.  Ephesians 6:17
• In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword.  Revelation 1:16a

When the word of God is pictured symbolically, it is a sword, a melee weapon.  No deception or covert ops necessary.

If the bow was in a verse in chapter 13, I perhaps could agree. It would fit with the Beast who is the king of deception. But this verse is not in chapter 13 about the Beast. It is not even in a verse that would be inside the 70th week. IN CONTEXT it is in a verse that begins chapter 6 in revelation. In context it comes right after we read that the Holy Spirit was sent down. When was that? Oh yes, around 32 AD. 

This weapon is being held by a rider on a white horse. The horse is to represent warfare, when one conquers. The white is to represent righteous conquering or overcoming.  This vision is coming from heaven, from God Himself. The devil did not choose white, GOD chose white. Sure, if the devil got to choose, He would choose white for His Antichrist Beast. He is a deceiver. God chose white, not the red He chose for the dragon.  Why would anyone imagine God would paint the Dragon red, but paint his servant white? Never never happen.

One simply CANNOT ignore timing. John has made it clear that there is timing and chronology in his book. There is a HUGE timing difference between when John was called up to heaven and when the beast came up at the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet would be perhaps 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the first half of the week.

Isaiah 49:2

 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver.

 

Psalm 64:7

 But God will shoot at them with an arrow; Suddenly they will be wounded.

 

Psalm 38:2

 For Your arrows have sunk deep into me, And Your hand has pressed down on me.

Psalm 64:3  Who have sharpened their tongue like a sword They aimed bitter speech as their arrow,

 

Zechariah 9:14

 Then the LORD will appear over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning; And the Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And will march in the storm winds of the south.

 

Jeremiah 9:8

 "Their tongue is a deadly arrow; It speaks deceit; With his mouth one speaks peace to his neighbor, But inwardly he sets an ambush for him.

It is not a stretch to liken arrows to words.

When I consider all these points, I have to believe this white horse and rider are to represent the church taking the gospel to a world ruled by Satan.

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

First, you say this:

"It is a VERY weak argument on your side. If God chose to add some history (AND HE DID) He is all powerful and able to do it."

Then you turn around and say:

"The COLOR of the horse is what represents righteousness, and this is a BIGGIE! You cannot overlook this. God is simply not going to use white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something else in the same book!"

Why do you say that God is all-powerful and able to do whatever He wills, and then say that " NO, He is simply NOT going to do it"

If God chooses to, He can do whatever He wishes. Period!

Just because the color "white" is used 16 other times in the book of Rev., why do you assume that the rider on the "white horse" HAS to represent righteousness? What did Jesus tell us in Matt 24......"MANY will come in My name saying "I am the Christ and will mislead many". ...............

Since deception will be paramount in the last days, it makes complete sense that the rider on the white horse is the one who deceives, the one who misleads people, the one who claims to be Christ. If he were to ride on any other color of horse, his deception wouldn't work. The rider on the white horse will " go out conquering and to conquer"......which means spiritual warfare, to deceive, to mislead. Jesus warns us....."Behold, I have told you in advance."

The rider on the white horse is a deceiver. It's the Antichrist. ( MANY will come in My name saying "I am the Christ and will mislead many").............What better way to deceive people that to ride on a white horse,  which many know to be Jesus Himself riding on a white horse at the second coming. ( Rev 19:11 )

The few commentaries that I found that claim the rider on the white horse is the gospel going forth since 32 AD, are from SDA. Uraih Smith pushes this "theory".

You stated:  

"We have a bow (toxon) to represent a weapon, but no arrows: the GOSPEL is the arrows."

You need to explain this one.

You say that the first seal is the Gospel going forth. 

The rider on the horse has a "bow".......which you say represents a "weapon"...........

But NO ARROWS.

Then you say that the Gospel represents the ARROWS????????

But the rider on the white horse ONLY has a BOW......NO arrows??????????

Makes no sense. 

God chose to SHOW US a bow but no arrows. WE have to do the best we can with what God has given us.  The weapons of the church are not physical weapons of flesh and blood. We use spiritual weapons such as PRAYER, which is words backed up by faith.

God is very consistent in His word!  If white means righteousness 16 times, God is not going to change it to mean something else in the same book. Where is SPOCK with his logic? It is just not logical. On the other hand, if God chooses to tell a story that includes some history to get the story told, does He not have a right to do that?  You cannot compare apples to a fence post.

......"MANY will come in My name saying "I am the Christ and will mislead many". ...............   many have come and more WILL come. But the white horse is not one of them.  There is NOTHING there about misleading. There is nothing there about that first seal to give ANY indication of evil at all. It is all imagination.  I could say about the moon appearing red at the 6th seal and say, "that means black! Red here really means black" and it would make just as much sense as you make thinking this white horse and rider are evil - on the devil's side. You see white and you IMAGINE it cannot mean what white means 16 other times. You see conquering or overcoming and y0u imaging it must be some kind of EVIL conquering - when God gives No such indication.

I will agree, WHEN the Beast comes, He will deceive many. But you will not find the Beast at the first seal.

Since deception will be paramount in the last days, it makes complete sense that the rider on the white horse is the one who deceives  So just start calling white black and black white, call evil good and good evil, since you like opposites.

IF the horse was red, and IF this description was written in chapter 13, you would have a leg to stand on. As it is, you don't.  While God is thinking early church, you are thinking end times.

If he were to ride on any other color of horse, his deception wouldn't work.  Sorry, God is telling this story, not Satan. It is a revealing, not a hiding. God is telling this story, not the devil. God talks about deception but it is found in Revelation `13 and then past that in Revelation. You are trying to bring end times to the seals and it simply will not work. The seals are church age. Yes, the spirit of Antichrist was alive and well in John's day, but they were NOT near the end and "THE Antichrist" would not come for another 2000 years.

[simplejeff]

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

but they were NOT near the end

"we are in the LAST HOUR"......

written IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

"we are in the LAST HOUR"......

written IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

God's "hour" may be longer than you think. most of Revelation is STILL in our future.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One simply CANNOT ignore timing. John has made it clear that there is timing and chronology in his book.

And yet you set the beginning of the gospel going forth to a point in time after the seven churches were in Asia.  How did those churches get there before the gospel went forth??   Wouldn't it be easier to just admit your time-traveling error and move on?

[iamlamad]

14 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

And yet you set the beginning of the gospel going forth to a point in time after the seven churches were in Asia.  How did those churches get there before the gospel went forth??   Wouldn't it be easier to just admit your time-traveling error and move on?

When if ever are you going to get this? Perhaps you should study the simple word "History."

 

Chapter 1:  95 AD

Chapter 2: 95 AD

Chapter 3: 95 AD

Chapter 4:1  John called up to heaven: 95 AD

Chapter 4:2  John is seeing a vision: 95 AD.

Now it gets more difficult: What is the time IN the vision?

Vision of chapters 4 & 5

4:2-3:  Jesus NOT seen at the right hand of the father:  sometime between 2 BC and 32 AD: Jesus on earth or under the earth

4:5  Holy Spirit in the throne room: Before Jesus ascended and sent Him down

5:4  no man found:  before Jesus rose from the dead.

5:5  Jesus prevailed over death and was then found worthy to take the book: Jesus had just RISEN from the dead.

5:6 Jesus ascends back to heaven: 32 AD

5:6 Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down: 32 AD

5:7 Jesus takes the book from the Father.: 32 AD

6:1 Jesus begins opening the seals:  32 AD

6:9 5th seal: probably opened sometime after 32 AD. James was killed early.

6:12 6th seal: CLEARLY in our future.

[simplejeff]

Not so ,  not clearly.   Big difference of thought available ever since written in the first century.  

 

[simplejeff]

50 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

God's "hour" may be longer than you think. most of Revelation is STILL in our future.

Or,  God's Ways are so much higher than you think,   we may all only have a few minutes, or no time,  left....

all of His Word may have well been accomplished in the lifetime of the Apostles and disciples in the first or second century,   thus why THEY EXPECTED JESUS RETURN in their own lifetimes, 

and Yahushua  and Yahuweh TAUGHT THEM,  and did not correct them concerning this!

[Last Daze]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

When if ever are you going to get this? Perhaps you should study the simple word "History."

 

Chapter 1:  95 AD

Chapter 2: 95 AD

Chapter 3: 95 AD

Chapter 4:1  John called up to heaven: 95 AD

Chapter 4:2  John is seeing a vision: 95 AD.

Now it gets more difficult: What is the time IN the vision?

Vision of chapters 4 & 5

4:2-3:  Jesus NOT seen at the right hand of the father:  sometime between 2 BC and 32 AD: Jesus on earth or under the earth

4:5  Holy Spirit in the throne room: Before Jesus ascended and sent Him down

5:4  no man found:  before Jesus rose from the dead.

5:5  Jesus prevailed over death and was then found worthy to take the book: Jesus had just RISEN from the dead.

5:6 Jesus ascends back to heaven: 32 AD

5:6 Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down: 32 AD

5:7 Jesus takes the book from the Father.: 32 AD

6:1 Jesus begins opening the seals:  32 AD

6:9 5th seal: probably opened sometime after 32 AD. James was killed early.

6:12 6th seal: CLEARLY in our future.

Guess not.  Oh well.