Diaste Posted August 15, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,627 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 15, 2018 21 hours ago, iamlamad said: Sorry, but your theory here does not agree with all scripture. Sorry, but there was no Jesus for the church in the wilderness. He came later to bring them out of the captivity of Abraham's bosom and into heaven. In fact, end times scriptures point to THREE groups: the church, the descendants of Jacob, and the nations. No Jesus for Moses and the congregation? "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:" If there is no Jesus, there is no salvation. From beginning to end it's always been Jesus. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." You will soon see. If you don't come to this greater knowledge there will be bitter tears when it all begins to end. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 15, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 15, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 6:43 AM, iamlamad said: Sorry, but there was no Jesus for the church in the wilderness. He came later to bring them out of the captivity of Abraham's bosom and into heaven. What is your take on this passage then? For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 On 8/10/2018 at 5:31 PM, Diaste said: The truth is it's the apostasy and the revealing of the beast that restrains the coming of the Lord and the gathering. No other way to read this passage. Not Michael. Not the church. Not the Holy Spirit. None of the above holds back anything in this passage. Paul is saying the Lord won't come until after the apostasy and the revealing of the beast, just in a different way, but we all knew that already. satan as the man of sin won't be revealed until after the war in Heaven,so it has to be Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,627 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 6 hours ago, n2thelight said: satan as the man of sin won't be revealed until after the war in Heaven,so it has to be Michael If we read the following "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time." and remove an exhortation and an admonition or two and a descriptive portion, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (The coming of the Lord and gathering)will not come until the rebellion occurs(Apostasia) and the man of lawlessness is revealed(The ascension to godhood), And now you know what is holding him(Him, being Jesus) back, so that he(He, being Jesus) may be revealed at the proper time (The proper time being after the beast and the rebellion)." or, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time." The only conclusion is the Coming of our Lord and the gathering is what is being held back by the rebellion and the revealing. Sin and evil is not being held back by an archangel or anything else. Paul is telling us Jesus is coming, but first, the beast. Paul does not mention the church, the Holy Spirit, nor Micheal the archangel here, nor holding back evil, quite the opposite, the reign of terror is holding back the gathering and the return of our King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Diaste said: The only conclusion is the Coming of our Lord and the gathering is what is being held back by the rebellion and the revealing. Sin and evil is not being held back by an archangel or anything else. Paul is telling us Jesus is coming, but first, the beast. Paul does not mention the church, the Holy Spirit, nor Micheal the archangel here, nor holding back evil, quite the opposite, the reign of terror is holding back the gathering and the return of our King. II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" Paul is again reminding them. II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]." "And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?" The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this. II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10. The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9]. "Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2. Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it. It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now. Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels. Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7. Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet. Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself. II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:" "The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints. Then Christ will destroy Satan. https://www.theseason.org/2thess/2thess.htm Edited August 16, 2018 by n2thelight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,937 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,865 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted August 16, 2018 28 minutes ago, n2thelight said: The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this. Now you can have fun explaining the three entities who are cast into the lake of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) On 6/21/2018 at 3:37 PM, Heb 13:8 said: 1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write (graphó) to you, Paul, in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, had just revealed the mystery of the rapture. So now, in verse 1, Paul is saying Christians should know the times, by the world saying peace and safety - when suddenly the Day of the Lord overtakes the world. Which all revolves around the person known as the Antichrist, perceived messiah instead of Jesus, the true Christ, rightful King of Israel. 1. we know the generation timeframe from the parable of the fig tree. The fig tree is Jerusalem, and ours is the generation. 2. we know the 70th week begins when the person, as the Antichrist, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years (required in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13). 3. we know that person who becomes the Antichrist is the prince who shall come. 4. in Daniel 8:9, we know that person coming into the middle east is the little horn person. 5. in Daniel 7:23-24, we know the little horn comes up among ten kings of the fourth kingdom. That's where we are at on the visible timeline, to be watching for the EU to change its form of government to a ten leader form of government with one leader over them. On the invisible timeline, the rapture could happen anytime. Edited August 16, 2018 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 On 8/15/2018 at 7:35 AM, Last Daze said: What is your take on this passage then? For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 It is very simple: at that time He was called the Redeemer, (Isa 44:6) and the second person of the trinity. He was the WORD that said, "Light BE!" And light was. However, at that time He had not become flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Diaste said: If we read the following "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (The coming of the Lord and gathering)will not come until the rebellion occurs(Apostasia) and the man of lawlessness is revealed(The ascension to godhood), And now you know what is holding him(Him, being Jesus) back, so that he(He, being Jesus) may be revealed at the proper time (The proper time being after the beast and the rebellion)." or, Let's have a redo: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (The dark day; the day of destruction, the day of wrath and fierce anger, the day of vengeance: the DAY OF THE LORD [the day they thought they were IN!])will not come until the rebellion occurs(Apostasia - the departing [the gathering]) and the man of lawlessness is revealed(when he enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews!), And now you know what is holding (Restraining) him(Him, being the man of sin who will turn into the Beast of Rev. 13) back, so that he(the man of sin revealed as the Beast) may be revealed at the proper time (The proper time being after what comes FIRST: the departing or gathering of the church that is currently restraining or holding back this revealing)." Edited August 16, 2018 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 16, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Michael37 said: Now you can have fun explaining the three entities who are cast into the lake of fire. Ha! You said it well! This will be fun to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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