The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

That wasn't originally my statement.  I was quoting it.

I know

[Montana Marv]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:15 AM, Last Daze said:

There is no special entitlement or privilege afforded to the last days believers.  We are not greater than our Master.  We should be prepared for persecution.  We've been forewarned.  The sword is coming.

True, they will go into captivity or be killed by the sword.  Today some N.T. Believers go into captivity and others killed.  In the past N.T. Believers went into captivity by Rome, and many were burned on crosses to light up the road to Rome.  So what is new that you are portraying.  We see persecution. 

Now one must differentiate between between the "Bride of Christ" and other Saints.  For this is the point, not all Saints are the Bride of Christ.  The Bride of Christ are those who are indwelt by the H.S. and give Testimony about Jesus Christ.  There are others who give Testimony about Jesus Christ who are not indwelt by the H.S..  Matt 7:21-23 - Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and preform many miracles.  Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you evildoer.

Do Mormons believe in Jesus Christ, Yes.  Are they of the Bride, NO.  The same with J.W.'s.  And many other cults who claim to know Jesus Christ, but are not of the Bride.  Mormons say they are Latter Day Saints.  Maybe they will be, in the Latter Days,  Maybe the J.W.'s will also, and others.  A Second chance to follow Jesus, and proclaim his Name, because they all miss out the first time around.

So yes, the Rapture is for the entitled few.  Broad is the road which leads to destruction, and many take it; but few are those who take the narrow road which leads to eternal life.

Why are you not warning Unbelievers about this upcoming sword.  All true Believers are secure in Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Then you realize, according to God that His wrath begins, by separating Himself from that which He has wrath with?

When I study scripture, I give the greatest priority to the things that are plainly stated.  When an "in-depth" study arrives at a conclusion that contradicts what has been plainly stated, I will reject it.  Every time. 

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Now one must differentiate between between the "Bride of Christ" and other Saints.  For this is the point, not all Saints are the Bride of Christ. 

It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who redefines terms.  Like I stated in the OP, use biblical terms and use them the way the Bible defines them.  The Bride of Christ can not be any more clearly defined than the definition that's given in Revelation 21.

• Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.  Revelation 21:9-10

If you're not going to use biblical terms as the Bible defines them then there's really no sense in continuing in a discussion.   I've pointed this out to you before.  I realize that some people already have their minds made up and that nothing that I or anyone else can say will persuade them.  I'm simply pointing out what the Bible teaches about tribulation, judgment and wrath for those who are willing to hear it.  If you're not willing to hear it, that's up to you.

[Brother Duke]

52 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who redefines terms.  Like I stated in the OP, use biblical terms and use them the way the Bible defines them.  The Bride of Christ can not be any more clearly defined than the definition that's given in Revelation 21.

• Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.  Revelation 21:9-10

If you're not going to use biblical terms as the Bible defines them then there's really no sense in continuing in a discussion.   I've pointed this out to you before.  I realize that some people already have their minds made up and that nothing that I or anyone else can say will persuade them.  I'm simply pointing out what the Bible teaches about tribulation, judgment and wrath for those who are willing to hear it.  If you're not willing to hear it, that's up to you.

There is a bride but it is not the gentiles.  Israel is still betrothed to God.  I still submit that the 144,000 remnant of Israel from all the tribes not just Judah are the bride.  God will reunite all of Israel back together and they will once again be his people and his betrothed.  Looks and see who comes back with Christ.  It is not the gentiles.  The 144,000 are with Christ forever after he returns.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.  11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.  19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

 

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

Revekation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with someone who redefines terms.  Like I stated in the OP, use biblical terms and use them the way the Bible defines them.  The Bride of Christ can not be any more clearly defined than the definition that's given in Revelation 21.

Eph 5:25-33 - Husbands, love your wife, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her..... v. 31,32 - for this reason a man will leave his father and mother, and be united with his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.  This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the Church.

This Wife is the Bride of Christ, being the Church.  1 Cor 12:14 - Now the body is not made up of one part but many.  If the foot should say, I am not the hand, I do not belong to the body.  And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I do not belong to the body,...  So we have hands, feet, ears, eyes, smell, hearing all part of the Body.  Rev 21 states brick and mortar, jewels and gems, pillars, walls, and road mix. 

I see a difference,  You are the one who is defining terms to fit your agenda.  What say you.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I agree that the bowls contain the wrath of God, but when does His time of judgment / wrath begin?

• I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood.  And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:12,16

His judgment / wrath begins after the sixth seal is opened.  What comes after the sixth seal?  The seven plagues of the seventh seal.  What comes before the sixth seal?  The time of great tribulation of the fifth seal.

Hi Last Daze,

As we are often in the outback, I can`t always get reception, so my answers may be slow.

Now important question - Lots of scriptures people have written however I`ll give this one for thought -

`When I have brought them (Israel) back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies` lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the Lord their God who sent them into captivity among the nations, but brought them back to their own land, and left none of them captive any longer....` (Ez. 39: 27 & 28)

So when is the Lord `hallowed in them in the sight of many nations?` 

`And I will bring him, (nation in the northern quarter of the earth) to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed: I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire and brimstone. Thus I will magnify myself and sanctify myself, and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.` (Ez. 38: 32 & 33)

This will mark the beginning of God`s dealings with Israel in the latter times - the last part of their chastisement. This is after the far northern army is dealt with. God`s purpose for Israel, the time clock of the `end of the Gentile`s rule,  will commence and the Body of Christ purpose will be completed.

regard, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi again Last Daze,

Here is something to think about. If you had never seen a vehicle with a wheel, and I said let`s discuss this `wheel,` then everyone would give their opinion as to what the `wheel` was. However if you knew the PURPOSE of the wheel, then you would have understanding from the whole picture.

So it is with discussing `the catching away/rapture.` Just to discuss the part separate from its PURPOSE IS REALLY `ANYONE`S OPINION. Thus I believe we need to get to the heart of the matter and discuss `WHY` the Lord is `catching away` His Body. And that is NOT to escape the wrath, though that will happen, the reason is connected to the PURPOSE OF THE BODY.

Do you want to discuss that or start a new thread of that?

Marilyn.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, enoob57 said:

You realize they are there because 1. They rejected Jesus and was not removed from God's wrath of tribulation (or) 2. They were not careful with the Scriptures and added to what was written even though God warned them not to!

Rev 22:18-20

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
KJV
 

Perhaps, but this isn't dealing with the troublesome results of my previous reply. The reasons why are not significant at this point. Of great import is the process by which these conclusions are derived.

It seems out of character for the concept of love your neighbor to place a great many believers in a difficult situation, from which another group of believers escape by reason when that reason only applies to them and not the first group.

But still your idea here does not work even if it's valid in concept. What is missed is the vast throng around the throne that came from out of great tribulation. If the 'tribulation period' is the wrath of God then everyone of these had to endure the wrath of God, something scripture says will not happen, and a foundational premise of the PreTrib doctrine. If that premise works to prove there must be a Pretrib rapture because 'we are not appointed to wrath', then why does it not work for this group which came out of GT(wrath)?

This, "They were not careful with the Scriptures and added to what was written even though God warned them not to!" is not the correct conclusion based on the fact,

"the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life,"

This only refers here to the prophecy of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not all of scripture. It's likely that any who add or take away from scripture in any way will have to answer for that, and it will be unpleasant for sure, but in the passage you posted additions and subtractions are specific to the prophecies in Revelation.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Butero said:

Let me start out by saying that I disagree with the privilege argument in the OP.  I can make a case for privilege on any number of issues, from the family we were born to, to the nation of birth, to our time in history, to any number of other things.  It is just not a valid argument.  In addition to that, people aren't believing in a pre-tribulation rapture because they sat around and determined that they like the idea because it makes them privileged.  

Yes, but I think the point was there is subset of believers that latch onto this pretrib idea and then feel it does not apply to the rest of the greater group. I feel you said as much when you claim that our personal beliefs on the matter will determine participation in a pretrib event, "but the reason they didn't escape the tribulation is because they failed to watch for the Lord's return and didn't believe the warnings.". This is an oft repeated idea and is simply not the case. Born again in the blood of the Lamb, confessing the name of Jesus, resisting the world in the Spirit of power and truth, love, is what determines our place in the kingdom. 

16 hours ago, Butero said:

Are there examples of God's people being removed before danger came, rather than having to go through it?  Of course there are.  First of all, there is Noah and his family.  They weren't required to stay on the earth and while God helped them float on the water and survive that way.  They went into the ark of safety while the earth was under water.  Then there is Lot and his family.  They weren't required to remain in Sodom while the fire and brimstone rained down.  They were removed by the angels first.  The idea of God removing someone from danger is nothing new, and if you want to call Noah and his family privileged or Lot and his family privileged, so be it.  Where does the Bible say God doesn't give certain privileges to his children?  

Good examples but incorrect conclusion. It's not danger from which Noah and Lot were removed, it was God's wrath. Noah was 100 years building the ark. Now we don't know the details but we can surmise facts in Holmesian fashion. A wooden boat on dry land that surpasses apparent need for a century. There would be questions. And this thing is 450' long, the people would have thought him mad. What kind of persecution did Noah and his family endure for 100 years? Sabotage? Mockery? Threats? Physical violence? All of the above and more no doubt. Lot was removed moments before God's wrath came upon the city, not from 'danger'. " 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—"

16 hours ago, Butero said:

For as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Watch therefore:  for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.  Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.  Matthew 2:37-44

I am not posting this to prove it is speaking of the rapture, though I believe it is.  I am posting this to show God taking Noah into the ark of safety before the flood, and God removing people from the earth and leaving others.  To some that might be considered privilege.  So what?  I want to be among the privileged.  You can be too by being watchful.  

I agree. I too desire every privilege that God bestows on the faithful. What I cannot abide is a set within a whole taking privilege for themselves over the rest of the whole. But being watchful isn't going to do it. We watch because we are expectantly waiting on the return of the Lord Jesus because the Spirit of God within us longs for His kingdom; the Spirit is what gives us our place in heaven, not being watchful. We watch because we are Spirit filled and saved, we are not saved because we watch.

16 hours ago, Butero said:

There is an argument that was made about where the Christians come from that are seen killed during the tribulation period and who kills them.  I do not subscribe to Hal Lindsey and people like him that believe every Christian goes in the rapture.  Only those who are watching and waiting on the Lord and keeping their life in order will go in the rapture.  Many Christians will be left behind to go through the tribulation.  Jesus warned us the lukewarm will be spewed out, so if they don't take the warning serious, that is not on God but on them.  Anyway, back to who is killing them.  The wicked anti-Christ followers are the ones killing them, not God, but God is pouring out his wrath upon the earth through judgements.  The martyrs are not upset with God for his judgements, but they are wanting vengeance upon the anti-Christ followers that killed them.  There will be some saved during the tribulation period, but the reason they didn't escape the tribulation is because they failed to watch for the Lord's return and didn't believe the warnings.  That is on them, not God.  As was the case with Noah before the flood, there is a way of escape for some.

 

The highlighted portion cannot be true. I wish just one person would acknowledge the issue here. The response it usually something like what you say, "Many Christians will be left behind to go through the tribulation. ", "the reason they didn't escape the tribulation is because they failed to watch for the Lord's return ", when it's well understood there are believers during GT.This isn't the point. Why are they in GT at all? The real issue is the insistence that wrath=GT, 70th week, judgment. Pretrib uses this to escape GT, 70th, judgment, but it's not for everyone. Only those who 'believe in a pretrib rapture' are going to be taken in a pretrib rapture. The rest of the poor souls who believe otherwise, and those who are born again during the 70th week, have to endure God's wrath through GT and judgment.