The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

In other words: the Tribulation is the Lord's greatest effort to shake unrepentant man from his comfortable spiritual slumber, the time where the Israel finally recognizes the One she spurned and admits her mistake, and where the world is finally dealt with for the years of misery. The Church has no place in this, and there is no reason for the Church to go through this time.

The Church has already recognized that the Law cannot save and only Christ can; Israel has not yet, and the rest of the world must be subjected to the Law in order that they may seek grace.

Pretty much.  Those already redeemed are kept from that time since it is not intended for them.  

 

[Diaste]

"26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

 

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The pre-trib eschatological model has God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful servants, who, loving not their lives unto death, die as martyrs. What a horrid system! It is totally bankrupt. It takes a blessed fundamental truth, that the believer is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord, and uses it to divide the body of Christ into those who never experience persecution or God's wrath and those who are the recipients of both the most severe persecution and God's wrath. They take the promise that is an encouragement to the persecuted believer and tell them that it doesn't apply to them. Not only that, they make the unprecedented persecution of the saints the act of God's wrath. They say that the murder of the saints whose souls are seen under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal is the result of God's wrath. Have you lost your mind! What is wrong with you?

Jesus said that the day of our rescue would be the day that His wrath falls upon the unbelievers.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Paul said that the day that we rest from persecution will be the day that Christ arrives with the mighty angels and begins to tribulate those who had persecuted us.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul said that the wrath that we are not appointed unto is the sudden destruction that comes upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is it about these three very clear passages that you do not understand?

None are so blind as those who will not see.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

[Montana Marv]

47 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

The pre-trib eschatological model has God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful servants, who, loving not their lives unto death, die as martyrs. What a horrid system! It is totally bankrupt. It takes a blessed fundamental truth, that the believer is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord, and uses it to divide the body of Christ into those who never experience persecution or God's wrath and those who are the recipients of both the most severe persecution and God's wrath. They take the promise that is an encouragement to the persecuted believer and tell them that it doesn't apply to them. Not only that, they make the unprecedented persecution of the saints the act of God's wrath. They say that the murder of the saints whose souls are seen under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal is the result of God's wrath. Have you lost your mind! What is wrong with you?

We do not believe what you have suggested.  Gods Wrath is poured out on the Unjust. We are not around at this time.  Those whose souls under the Altar are those who died by Beheading.  They ask; How long until you avenge our blood.  What did the First Martyr Stephen say, Forgive them.  Sorry but N.T. Believers blood has been taken care of at the Cross.  What is the final Wrath of God;  The Lake of Fire.  I say, What is wrong with you?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

24 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

What is the evil day [for which the brethren need the whole armor of God] necessary to "withstand" and "stand"?

Every day of Life.  The same for as for Paul.  Been on going for the past 2000 years, the Church Age.  Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.  Some are tested more than others.  Did Paul have the full armor of God on himself, YES.  Is he going to go though the final few years, NO.  So what is your point?  All Believers are to strive to have the Full Armor of God, so they are able to resist the Devil.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OldCoot]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

"26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

 

Speaking to Israel, not the believers.  When Yeshua said this, the NT church did not exist.  One must always view context and the audience.  The above comports with all the OT passages referring to the final tribulation period coming upon Israel and that Israel would be saved out of it.   Jeremiah, Hosea, and on and on.

[Scott Free]

Revelation is seven separate letters. These documents repeat information as they overlap. This confuses many scholars. Both the rapture event and the 3 1/2 years are referred to in separate story lines. This gives the illusion of two different events when viewed as a continuous narrative. Book divisions by chapter 3-3-3-4-3-3-3.

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Scott Free

[OldCoot]

12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The pre-trib eschatological model has God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful servants, who, loving not their lives unto death, die as martyrs. What a horrid system! It is totally bankrupt. It takes a blessed fundamental truth, that the believer is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord, and uses it to divide the body of Christ into those who never experience persecution or God's wrath and those who are the recipients of both the most severe persecution and God's wrath. They take the promise that is an encouragement to the persecuted believer and tell them that it doesn't apply to them. Not only that, they make the unprecedented persecution of the saints the act of God's wrath. They say that the murder of the saints whose souls are seen under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal is the result of God's wrath. Have you lost your mind! What is wrong with you?

Jesus said that the day of our rescue would be the day that His wrath falls upon the unbelievers.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Paul said that the day that we rest from persecution will be the day that Christ arrives with the mighty angels and begins to tribulate those who had persecuted us.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul said that the wrath that we are not appointed unto is the sudden destruction that comes upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is it about these three very clear passages that you do not understand?

None are so blind as those who will not see.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

The one thing you do not seem to understand.... that the redeemed are not in the picture.   And the other thing that you misunderstand.... what the final tribulation is all about, who is allowing it, and who is it intended for.  While the church in general does endure tribulations as Yeshua said it would, those tribulations are at the discretion of evil people in a corrupted world.  The final tribulation period is at the discretion of the Lord for His intended purposes.

Just the verses you posted from 1 Thessalonians 5 confirm that.  "as a thief in the night".   Any position other than pre-trib, the time of the Lord's return can be calculated and figured out.   One cannot calculate and figure when a thief is coming, all one can do is prepare for it to happen.  Also, what is the intention of a thief?  To take away that which He wants and return to where He came from. Yeshua will come when no one expects it and snatch away that which is His... the redeemed.   At the end of the trib period, Yeshua is coming to establish His kingdom here on earth, not to grab something and get away like a thief.  

Calling that period like "Travail upon a woman" in those verses is linking the idea to the dozens of OT passages that equate the labor pains to the tribulation that comes upon Israel.  And the final tribulation period starts at the BEGINNING of the labor pains per many passages in the OT.  And in the OT, there is reference that a birth occurs just before or at the very start of those birth pains.  It is the Church (body of Messiah per Romans 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:12), having been conceived in Jerusalem by the HS in AD32, that is being and born and delivered to the Father.   That is the picture in the parenthetical passage of Revelation 12:1-5.  Those that are the redeemed in the Body are the ones who will rule and reign with Messiah with a rod of Iron as He has... Revelation 2:26-27.

And your contention that the body of Messiah is divided under the pre-trib model is flawed.  The Body of Messiah is not the OT saints nor the final tribulation Saints.  It is those called out and redeemed from Shavuot 32AD on up thru the time it is removed prior to the final tribulation period.   Remember the Parable of the Pearl that Yeshua taught us?   Oysters are not kosher... picture gentiles.   A pearl is started as an irritation to the oyster... picture the church.  It grows by accretion... picture hardship and trials that strengthen and grow the church body.   When it is time, the pearl is removed from the oyster and set as a item of adornment.... picture the removal of the church and being crowned, robed, and joined to the Messiah. 

The ones who are persecuted and are killed in the time of the final tribulation, entered into the final tribulation in unbelief. They were not the redeemed.  They are the intended target of the final tribulation.  If they had already believed, they would have been removed.    The period also is design to drive unbelieving Jacob (Israel and Judah) to its knees and cry out for the Messiah to rescue them. Yeshua is NOT going to return to earth like the first time until this happens per Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2.  Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:39.    And the intended purpose of the final tribulation period is to punish the rest of the world and when they generally still will not repent and still reject Yeshua (except for those who will repent and are killed for that decision), proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they are destined for eternal punishment.  See Revelation 9 and Revelation 11.    The Lord is making His prosecutorial case against the world during this time so that His judgement against them will be substantiated and justified.

There are many OT passages that support a pre-trib position.  Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.  All proclaiming just what Paul said that the redeemed are not to endure God's wrath and will be hidden from it in a place He has prepared for the redeemed to be hidden.  There is as much or more references to this event in the OT than in the NT.  It was not understood from the OT passages how this would happen, so Paul was given that mystery to reveal... that the redeemed would be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and caught  up to be with the Lord.

indeed. there are none so blind as those who will not see.... especially so those that dismiss 2/3 of the Bible in making an assertion.

Edited September 23, 2018 by OldCoot
Spelling.

[OldCoot]

14 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Sure it is.   We, the church, are the participants,  not the left behind eye witnesses to the rapture.   But Jesus (and Paul's) admonition to watch and be sober, concerns all of the events that precedes the rapture and therefore concerns the church.  The wrath of God during the times of great tribulation is God's wrath upon the people and land of Israel, not the church. 

*[[Luk 21:23]] KJV* But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Blessings

The PuP 

 

 

 

Well, in that context, if you are implying the church is removed from this time, yes.  In the anti-pretrib position I was responding to, no.  See above.

Edited September 23, 2018 by OldCoot
Clarification

[OldCoot]

39 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 

 

I was typing when it came through.   Your premise that when God brings his wrath,  that it comes upon the whole world is not true.   

*[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

*[[Luk 21:23]] KJV* But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

The wrath of God is specifically directed at the people and land of Israel.   They,  the children of Israel,  will soon be gathered to the land for judgment.   Paul said that (referring to the Jews) he that sins in the law shall be judged by the law.  The Jews continue to this day to blaspheme the name of God: 

*[[Rom 2:24]] KJV* For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

And God's wrath will first be revealed against them because they hold to the truth(claiming to know the righteousness of God) in unrighteousness,  because they were presented the gospel of Jesus first,  and rejected it. 

*[[Rom 1:16]] KJV* For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Blessings

The PuP 

You seem to have forgotten Psalms, Isaiah, Zephaniah, and Jeremiah.  The entire earth, or sometime called "the nations" is in view.

Keep in mind the Bereans. They were commended for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  All they had was the Tanakh (OT) and other writings.  There was no formal NT in place. So, by that example and the prescription in the Torah that any matter can only be decided on the testimony of two or more witnesses, anything espoused in the NT has to be confirmed in the OT.  And your assertion that God's wrath of the final tribulation period is not upon the whole earth is not supported in the OT.  Isaiah 26 is especially rich about that final period and laced with allusions to it.  

Edited September 23, 2018 by OldCoot