The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Brother Duke]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Brother Duke,

So good to read of clear truth. The bride is & always has been, Israel, and we as the BODY of Christ. Two different groups for two different purposes, yet all in harmony under the Lord`s rule.

BTW I also need to say, as someone has brought up the New Jerusalem, that the city is described `AS` a bride, meaning it is like a bride in all its glory. That is a description. and God uses that term for Israel and later for the city.

regards, Marilyn.

 

If we read Revelation 21 and also Peter and Paul we see we are living stones or temples.   Revelation says there is no temple because God and the Lamb are the temple.  I would assume this also extends to Israel/Church since they are the temple also.  In a sense the Lamb marrying New Jerusalem is the Lamb marrying Israel/church.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

What is missed is the vast throng around the throne that came from out of great tribulation. If the 'tribulation period' is the wrath of God then everyone of these had to endure the wrath of God, something scripture says will not happen, and a foundational premise of the PreTrib doctrine. If that premise works to prove there must be a Pretrib rapture because 'we are not appointed to wrath', then why does it not work for this group which came out of GT(wrath)?

 

Hi Distaste,

We need to realise that all who die to self and follow the Lord will be caught up to be with the Lord to the third heaven. There they will judge the world system and fallen angels.

Now the people who are left on the earth are the `rebellious` against God. However as things get difficult untold millions will turn to the Lord. (the great multitude that no one can count). These all die of - heat, hunger or thirst! Yet they turn from their selfish ways and turn to God.

And all through the judgments people can turn to God but we see that many do not repent.

`...and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 21)

Everyone, yes everyone who goes into the time of God`s judgment, have not humbled themselves under God`s mighty hand. yet still God gives mercy as long as people have breath. However they will not be included in the Body of Christ purpose, but will go onto the new earth, as they hold palm branches in their hand. palm branches signify the time of `tabernacles` and that means God tabernacling/dwelling with His people on earth.

All areas of God`s great kingdom will have people who humble themselves under Him, the difference is that God, yes God Himself declares when each of His purposes have been completed.

Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Brother Duke said:

If we read Revelation 21 and also Peter and Paul we see we are living stones or temples.   Revelation says there is no temple because God and the Lamb are the temple.  I would assume this also extends to Israel/Church since they are the temple also.  In a sense the Lamb marrying New Jerusalem is the Lamb marrying Israel/church.

Hi Brother Duke,

Nice to chat to you and so glad we both have the understanding that Israel is the `bride.` (Shiloh also believes this.) This revelation has not been understood or taught by many people, but by God`s Holy Spirit it is being revealed in our time. Although it seems a `small` thing it actually can rob the believer of their higher calling which is to the third heaven with Christ. (Rev. 3: 21)

Israel on the other hand, as scripture says will rule the nations on the new earth.

As to the New Jerusalem, with Christ being worshipped, (but not through a temple) that is for the `just men` (& women) recorded in Hebrews 11.

Hope that explains what I believe. Marilyn. 

 

[n2thelight]

No one has yet to tell where Judah is during all of this?,From a ore trib view.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I have already addressed that with adding to God's Word....

Yes, I understand you said believers are in tribulation because they were not watching and/or adding to God's word. 

It's not adding to God's word that's the problem. It's adding to or subtracting from the prophecy of the Revelation .

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

None of those people will join the heavenly assembly. If the plagues in the book are added to them which add to the prophecy then they have found their destiny, and it will not be the throne room.

At issue are those who receive Jesus as savior during the tribulation period. "Why are they destined to endure wrath when holy writ forbids that scenario?"

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Butero said:

Except, I am not saying that, or using that as a reason for belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.  I gave my reasons.  Those who are using that argument need to defend it, not me.

No one is using this as an argument in support, I'm pointing out a natural conclusion to the doctrine given the fact of other events we all know as truth. There exists an untenable problem for the doctrine resolved only in the truth the 70th week contains three distinct chapters: Beginning of sorrows, GT, and the wrath of the Lamb; of which none are equivalent, separate as to purpose, duration and cause.

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Distaste,

We need to realise that all who die to self and follow the Lord will be caught up to be with the Lord to the third heaven. There they will judge the world system and fallen angels.

Now the people who are left on the earth are the `rebellious` against God. However as things get difficult untold millions will turn to the Lord. (the great multitude that no one can count). These all die of - heat, hunger or thirst! Yet they turn from their selfish ways and turn to God.

And all through the judgments people can turn to God but we see that many do not repent.

`...and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 21)

Everyone, yes everyone who goes into the time of God`s judgment, have not humbled themselves under God`s mighty hand. yet still God gives mercy as long as people have breath. However they will not be included in the Body of Christ purpose, but will go onto the new earth, as they hold palm branches in their hand. palm branches signify the time of `tabernacles` and that means God tabernacling/dwelling with His people on earth.

All areas of God`s great kingdom will have people who humble themselves under Him, the difference is that God, yes God Himself declares when each of His purposes have been completed.

Marilyn. 

Why do you think I'm unclear as to why people are experiencing the time of the end of the age? That is not the issue or question.

The issue is Pretrib declares the entire time of the end as the wrath of God. This allows for the pretrib gathering to occur as 'we are not appointed to wrath', e.g. We are not appointed to wrath, the rapture removes believers from wrath, the last week is God's wrath, ergo, all believers are raptured before the last week begins.

But if if the last week is wrath, then how do those born again in the last week escape that wrath? Does 'we are not appointed to wrath' apply only to a select group? 

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Thanks, I forgot we had that discussion before. Now you know I would love to start a thread on that topic and after this trip around Australia I think I will. That will be in October sometime when we return. And you too, I always appreciate discussing with, as you think and work through what someone is saying and treat people respectfully also.

regards, Marilyn.

Sounds good, Marilyn.  You might message me after you start it if I haven't chimed in in a reasonable amount of time.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Why do you think I'm unclear as to why people are experiencing the time of the end of the age? That is not the issue or question.

The issue is Pretrib declares the entire time of the end as the wrath of God. This allows for the pretrib gathering to occur as 'we are not appointed to wrath', e.g. We are not appointed to wrath, the rapture removes believers from wrath, the last week is God's wrath, ergo, all believers are raptured before the last week begins.

But if if the last week is wrath, then how do those born again in the last week escape that wrath? Does 'we are not appointed to wrath' apply only to a select group? 

Hi Distaste,

People in this time period have the opportunity to humble themselves under God, and be in the Body of Christ that will be with the Lord, judging the world system and the fallen angels. However if they don`t humble themselves, and are under God`s wrath, then before they die they will still have an opportunity to receive God`s mercy, and be where He says they will go.

It all concerns the purposes of God.

Marilyn.  

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Sounds good, Marilyn.  You might message me after you start it if I haven't chimed in in a reasonable amount of time.

Hi Last Daze,

I certainly will seek you and look forward to your probing questions and thoughts.

Now further to your thread -

The catching away is when the Body of Christ comes to maturity by the Holy Spirit, (`...till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect (mature) man....` (Eph. 4: 13) and we go to the Lord`s own throne in the third heaven where we judge the world system and the fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

The timing is when the Lord Himself moves from the Father`s throne (authority) and has His own throne, (authority by the Father). This authority (throne) will be in the third heaven, for that is the first authority to be restored. Rulership from the third heaven to earth have been in rebellion since Lucifer rebelled. thus there needs to be a `Worthy` person to rule over all.

The Lord Jesus Christ became a man, and triumphed over all. He is indeed worthy, and all heaven, angelic beings and the Body of Christ will acclaim Him as Lord over all. this wonderful coronation has yet to come, as the Lord is still on the Father`s throne. But one day soon, we shall rise and there with the angelic beings we shall give the Lord - honour, glory, praise, for His is indeed `Worthy.`

So the `catching away, the rapture, is that wonderful time when we are joined with our Head, the High Kingpriest of a whole new order of kingpriests, the body of Christ. What a glorious hope to look forward to, what a high calling indeed is that.

So dear believers, let us lay aside all that hinders and would tie us to this earth, for we indeed are following our blessed redeemer and Lord, the one who has gone on before. Look up, rejoice and be steadfast, for He cometh quickly, (when He comes).

God bless, Marilyn.