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Last Daze

The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Wasn't the goal. We know believers are in the tribulation. If tribulation is God's wrath that's not possible. "We are not appointed to wrath." That's for ALL believers. It's not just for Pretrib believers. 

So again, "Why does a subset of the believers in Jesus get to escape wrath when another subset does not?"

I have already addressed that with adding to God's Word....

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:24 AM, Brother Duke said:

There is a bride but it is not the gentiles.  Israel is still betrothed to God.  I still submit that the 144,000 remnant of Israel from all the tribes not just Judah are the bride.  God will reunite all of Israel back together and they will once again be his people and his betrothed.  Looks and see who comes back with Christ.  It is not the gentiles.  The 144,000 are with Christ forever after he returns.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my peoplethere it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.  11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.  19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

 

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

Revekation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Hi Brother Duke,

So good to read of clear truth. The bride is & always has been, Israel, and we as the BODY of Christ. Two different groups for two different purposes, yet all in harmony under the Lord`s rule.

BTW I also need to say, as someone has brought up the New Jerusalem, that the city is described `AS` a bride, meaning it is like a bride in all its glory. That is a description. and God uses that term for Israel and later for the city.

regards, Marilyn.

 

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13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I know we've gone through this before but if you're willing to start a thread on it, I'll join in.  Discussions with you are always civil and appreciated.

Hi Last Daze,

Thanks, I forgot we had that discussion before. Now you know I would love to start a thread on that topic and after this trip around Australia I think I will. That will be in October sometime when we return. And you too, I always appreciate discussing with, as you think and work through what someone is saying and treat people respectfully also.

regards, Marilyn.

 

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13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Brother Duke,

So good to read of clear truth. The bride is & always has been, Israel, and we as the BODY of Christ. Two different groups for two different purposes, yet all in harmony under the Lord`s rule.

BTW I also need to say, as someone has brought up the New Jerusalem, that the city is described `AS` a bride, meaning it is like a bride in all its glory. That is a description. and God uses that term for Israel and later for the city.

regards, Marilyn.

 

If we read Revelation 21 and also Peter and Paul we see we are living stones or temples.   Revelation says there is no temple because God and the Lamb are the temple.  I would assume this also extends to Israel/Church since they are the temple also.  In a sense the Lamb marrying New Jerusalem is the Lamb marrying Israel/church.

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16 hours ago, Diaste said:

What is missed is the vast throng around the throne that came from out of great tribulation. If the 'tribulation period' is the wrath of God then everyone of these had to endure the wrath of God, something scripture says will not happen, and a foundational premise of the PreTrib doctrine. If that premise works to prove there must be a Pretrib rapture because 'we are not appointed to wrath', then why does it not work for this group which came out of GT(wrath)?

 

Hi Distaste,

We need to realise that all who die to self and follow the Lord will be caught up to be with the Lord to the third heaven. There they will judge the world system and fallen angels.

Now the people who are left on the earth are the `rebellious` against God. However as things get difficult untold millions will turn to the Lord. (the great multitude that no one can count). These all die of - heat, hunger or thirst! Yet they turn from their selfish ways and turn to God.

And all through the judgments people can turn to God but we see that many do not repent.

`...and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 21)

Everyone, yes everyone who goes into the time of God`s judgment, have not humbled themselves under God`s mighty hand. yet still God gives mercy as long as people have breath. However they will not be included in the Body of Christ purpose, but will go onto the new earth, as they hold palm branches in their hand. palm branches signify the time of `tabernacles` and that means God tabernacling/dwelling with His people on earth.

All areas of God`s great kingdom will have people who humble themselves under Him, the difference is that God, yes God Himself declares when each of His purposes have been completed.

Marilyn. 

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Just now, Brother Duke said:

If we read Revelation 21 and also Peter and Paul we see we are living stones or temples.   Revelation says there is no temple because God and the Lamb are the temple.  I would assume this also extends to Israel/Church since they are the temple also.  In a sense the Lamb marrying New Jerusalem is the Lamb marrying Israel/church.

Hi Brother Duke,

Nice to chat to you and so glad we both have the understanding that Israel is the `bride.` (Shiloh also believes this.) This revelation has not been understood or taught by many people, but by God`s Holy Spirit it is being revealed in our time. Although it seems a `small` thing it actually can rob the believer of their higher calling which is to the third heaven with Christ. (Rev. 3: 21)

Israel on the other hand, as scripture says will rule the nations on the new earth.

As to the New Jerusalem, with Christ being worshipped, (but not through a temple) that is for the `just men` (& women) recorded in Hebrews 11.

Hope that explains what I believe. Marilyn. 

 

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No one has yet to tell where Judah is during all of this?,From a ore trib view.

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15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I have already addressed that with adding to God's Word....

Yes, I understand you said believers are in tribulation because they were not watching and/or adding to God's word. 

It's not adding to God's word that's the problem. It's adding to or subtracting from the prophecy of the Revelation .

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

None of those people will join the heavenly assembly. If the plagues in the book are added to them which add to the prophecy then they have found their destiny, and it will not be the throne room.

At issue are those who receive Jesus as savior during the tribulation period. "Why are they destined to endure wrath when holy writ forbids that scenario?"

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16 hours ago, Butero said:

Except, I am not saying that, or using that as a reason for belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.  I gave my reasons.  Those who are using that argument need to defend it, not me.

No one is using this as an argument in support, I'm pointing out a natural conclusion to the doctrine given the fact of other events we all know as truth. There exists an untenable problem for the doctrine resolved only in the truth the 70th week contains three distinct chapters: Beginning of sorrows, GT, and the wrath of the Lamb; of which none are equivalent, separate as to purpose, duration and cause.

 

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7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Distaste,

We need to realise that all who die to self and follow the Lord will be caught up to be with the Lord to the third heaven. There they will judge the world system and fallen angels.

Now the people who are left on the earth are the `rebellious` against God. However as things get difficult untold millions will turn to the Lord. (the great multitude that no one can count). These all die of - heat, hunger or thirst! Yet they turn from their selfish ways and turn to God.

And all through the judgments people can turn to God but we see that many do not repent.

`...and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 21)

Everyone, yes everyone who goes into the time of God`s judgment, have not humbled themselves under God`s mighty hand. yet still God gives mercy as long as people have breath. However they will not be included in the Body of Christ purpose, but will go onto the new earth, as they hold palm branches in their hand. palm branches signify the time of `tabernacles` and that means God tabernacling/dwelling with His people on earth.

All areas of God`s great kingdom will have people who humble themselves under Him, the difference is that God, yes God Himself declares when each of His purposes have been completed.

Marilyn. 

Why do you think I'm unclear as to why people are experiencing the time of the end of the age? That is not the issue or question.

The issue is Pretrib declares the entire time of the end as the wrath of God. This allows for the pretrib gathering to occur as 'we are not appointed to wrath', e.g. We are not appointed to wrath, the rapture removes believers from wrath, the last week is God's wrath, ergo, all believers are raptured before the last week begins.

But if if the last week is wrath, then how do those born again in the last week escape that wrath? Does 'we are not appointed to wrath' apply only to a select group? 

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