The timing of the 6th seal

[Heb 13:8]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

Main harvest and gleanings? Is this Talmudic? Even if it isn't there is nothing connecting the old ways with the Way the Truth and the Life. Certainly Paul would have told us to look to the past for the interpretation of the future if it held any validity for coming generations. He didn't. I don't. I don't believe anyone should.

Watch for better understanding... youtube(dot)com/watch?v=ICZmfGLnjuc

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Oh, so you don't think it's both? Or could be both? Just because was raised in victory he could not be caught up to God and His throne? But raised in victory is not what Acts 1:9 records. Jesus was lifted up and received in a cloud. It's the same thing though harpazo is the more forceful term. 

Mixing two words like these for example is not proper exegesis. What you do not understand is that there wasn't any force in His ascension, and there were no thief-like actions in Acts 1. Actually, in Acts 1:2 the word "analambanó" does mean to raise.

Acts 1:2 until the day he was taken up (analambanó) to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

analambanó: to take up, raise
Original Word: ἀναλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: analambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (an-al-am-ban'-o)
Short Definition: I take up, raise
Definition: I take up, raise; I pick up, take on board; I carry off, lead away.

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So you believe Israel gave birth to the church? The Jews tried to kill Jesus several times. Finally got it done at Calvary. The Jews persecuted the Apostles, and from what I have read they persecuted Christians for centuries. They were not caught up.  

No, the church was conceived through Israel at Pentecost 2000 years ago, Acts 2:1-4. The birth is the first resurrection and rapture.

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"To him that overcometh"  " He that overcometh"  "To him that overcometh"  "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,"  "He that overcometh,"  "Him that overcometh " "To him that overcometh" Each time the church is given a promise to the overcomers. Since this is in the context of the last days it's no doubt we are overcome something related to the 70th week. To Thyatira Jesus says, "keeps my works to the end". That would not work in a pretrib scenario. And what is pretrib overcoming? A six pack and a bag of Doritos? Those weeds in the backyard? Maybe the daily commute?

And who is the one that overcomes, is it the one that believes in the death, burial and resurrection?

1Jo 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

God bless

[Heb 13:8]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I suppose they could try but they would be incorrect. Jesus' coming isn't related to a length of time.

His coming will cut short the days of GT. If His coming was at the very end of the week then no flesh would be saved. It's to save some people alive to be translated that those days are cut short.

This is the day known only be the Father and no man, not even the Lord Jesus, knows this day.

The 5th seal tells us this  as well. There will be no vengeance for the souls under the altar until the rest of their number are killed in the same manner. Once that moment is reached, the death of the last martyr, then GT is cut short as Jesus appears, we are gathered and wrath commences. 

Again, this is the day known only to the Father, well short of 1260 days, and so no count of days will do anyone any good.

The day will only come like a thief for those in darkness, and it will come on them like a thief.

No, the days cut short is in reference to them not exceeding past the 70th week. Are not the 7 Feasts of the Lord applicable for end times, via the second coming landing on the Day of Atonement?

So 3.5 years doesn't really mean 3.5 years in Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Dan 12:12, Luke 21:24, Rev 11:2, Rev 12:6, Rev 13:5? ?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the days cut short is in reference to them not exceeding past the 70th week. Are not the 7 Feasts of the Lord applicable for end times, via the second coming landing on the Day of Atonement?

So 3.5 years doesn't really mean 3.5 years in Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Dan 12:12, Luke 21:24, Rev 11:2, Rev 12:6, Rev 13:5? ?

²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

²² “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.--Matt 24

The day of GT are shortened. The week will continue for the allotted number of days. The 70th week is not equivalent to Tribulation, GT, or wrath.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Watch for better understanding... youtube(dot)com/watch?v=ICZmfGLnjuc

Not interested in relating Jewish tradition with the Way the Truth and the Life. If we were supposed to do that Jesus would have said so, like he mentioned looking to the prophet Daniel for understanding concerning the A of D. But he didn't and neither did the apostles.

8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Mixing two words like these for example is not proper exegesis. What you do not understand is that there wasn't any force in His ascension, and there were no thief-like actions in Acts 1. Actually, in Acts 1:2 the word "analambanó" does mean to raise.

Ok. I think you are reaching here and it's just too tedious and off topic to explore.

8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the church was conceived through Israel at Pentecost 2000 years ago, Acts 2:1-4. 

Got scripture to prove this? The citation above shows the church was born of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.

8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

And who is the one that overcomes, is it the one that believes in the death, burial and resurrection?

1Jo 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

God bless

Not the same context. Revelation is about the last days and that is the context through which we gain understanding. Enduring to the end doesn't mean catching the early flight.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Diaste. There are basically three different groups shown to John in Revelation, and they are the Church, Israel that will be saved when , and unbelievers which will ultimately have their place in the lake of fire.

"Israel that will be saved when"? I don't understand.

10 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

The Church is the first to be judged. Peter said it this way in 1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. That ensuing judgment is shown to John in Revelation Chapters Two & Three; its consequences forthcoming, and Jesus’ reward for our faithfulness presented to us when we see Him. Rev 22:12.

Not exactly clear. Are you saying the church is judged in Rev 2-3 and then 'raptured' in Rev 4?

10 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Now all that call upon the name of the Lord are believers (Rom 10:13), and white robes are a distinguishing factor of a believer showing their having been washed in the blood of the Lamb; we read of the Great Multitude’s righteousness in Rev 7:14.

Angels are also dressed in white linen. White attire is not a sole distinguishing feature of the saints. 

10 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

The 24 elders are shown with white robes in Rev 4:4, and the 144,000 are said to have been redeemed.

In Rev 14:4  . .  These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. And in Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Hope this helps brother in Jesus’ name. 

"2 and saw two angels in white,"--John 20

"6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen.."--Rev 15

Just because a person believes a thing does not make it true. It's more likely the armies that follow Jesus from heaven are angels, not the newly transformed elect.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi again Brother Diaste. John is shown different groups appear with Jesus. For instance the 24 elders and 4 living ones are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation, and they are round bout Jesus’ throne in Rev 4:4, and in the midst, and round bout His throne in Rev 4:6. Hopefully later we can expound on the reason for their being separate and kept from the temptation to come upon all the world, but for now, long story short it comes down to faithfulness, and the word that separates many even among believers. Not every portion of the seven churches of Revelation Chapters Two & Three were promised the same rewards.

The next major group we see of the Church are those of the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

(Do you consider these of the Great Multitude to be saints of God?) They are not round bout, and/or in the midst of the throne as those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 were.

A third and most prominent part of the Church to be caught up to God will be the 144,000 redeemed from among men said to be the firstfruits to God and the Lamb in Rev 14:4. I must ask which men were they redeemed from? Weren’t they those of Rev 7:3 through Rev 7:8 sealed of every tribe of Israel? Notice something else about them; they stand before the throne (not in the midst of the throne), the 24 elders and the four living ones, and it is the heavenly Jerusalem of mount Sion (Heb 12:22) they have been caught up to.

Blessings again in Christ Jesus. 

Still doesn't prove the 24 elders are saints or represent the church. I see the same groups in Rev but that does not equate the groups nor create divisions, nor does any of this prove a pretrib gathering.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Still doesn't prove the 24 elders are saints or represent the church. I see the same groups in Rev but that does not equate the groups nor create divisions, nor does any of this prove a pretrib gathering.

And since the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was, its chronologically impossible for them to represent the church.

[Daniel 11:36]

"And since the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was, its chronologically impossible for them to represent the church"

 

Who do the 24 elders represent?

 

Revelation

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands

Edited July 18, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

And since the 24 elders were there before the Lamb was, its chronologically impossible for them to represent the church.

Hi Brother or Sister Last Daze. Would you consider the fact that Jesus had sit in His Father's throne judging the Church as He walked among the candlesticks for two thousand plus years before John was shown those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 round bout, and in the midst of Jesus' own throne (Rev 4:2) at a future time of the Lord's Day when He takes that all power He has been given? 

Jesus is God, and even had power to bring those of paradise and place them in heaven. Paul said that he was caught UP into the third heaven in 1 Cor 12:2, where Paradise had been relocated (1 Co4 12:4) from its former place in the lower parts of the earth where we read the story of Abraham's bosom.

Thanks in Jesus' name.  :)

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother or Sister Last Daze. Would you consider the fact that Jesus had sit in His Father's throne judging the Church as He walked among the candlesticks for two thousand plus years before John was shown those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 round bout, and in the midst of Jesus' own throne (Rev 4:2) at a future time of the Lord's Day when He takes that all power He has been given? 

Jesus is God, and even had power to bring those of paradise and place them in heaven. Paul said that he was caught UP into the third heaven in 1 Cor 12:2, where Paradise had been relocated (1 Co4 12:4) from its former place in the lower parts of the earth where we read the story of Abraham's bosom.

Thanks in Jesus' name. 

Revelation 4 & 5 are there to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to open the seals, not provide some chronological continuation of the seven letters per se.  Otherwise, where was the Lamb when this question was asked?

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2

If the Lamb was around when that question was asked, then where was He?