Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

On 9/1/2018 at 2:38 AM, n2thelight said:

It's not in order

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

Not really. It was SUNDAY when this vision happened to John.  

[iamlamad]

On 8/31/2018 at 11:15 PM, Revelation Man said:

It surly has an order, and we just need to open our eyes to see it. Rev. 6 is the Middle of the Week (MoW), and since its the most important time in the book, many of the chapters are also seen as starting at this time also. Rev. 12, rev. 13, Rev. 17 and Rev. 18 all start in the Middle of the Week, Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the Middle of the week, the Two-witnesses have to bring Israel (the 1/3) unto Repentance BEFORE the Day of the Lord (MoW) begins. Rev. 19 covers the full 7 years that the Church is in Heaven basically. Rev. 14 covers the Rapture of the (Harvest) Church and the Armageddon Wine-press Harvest. 

Rev. chapters 1-3 is about the Church Age. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven, seen with White Raiment (Robes) on meaning the Rev. 19 Marriage has already taken place by this time. This is before the first seal is opened by Jesus in Rev. ch 6.

THE DAY OF THE LORD JUDGMENTS !!!

Rev. ch. 6 is the Middle of the week chapter. Jesus opens the seal, then the Anti-Christ (White horse rider represents Conquering) goes forth Conquering. The Red horse, Black horse and Pale Green horse are all the same person, the Anti-Christ/Beast. He is the one that chases Israel into the Wilderness in Revelation ch. 12, the Dragon can't do it per se, hes a Demon Spirit, he uses men. So Rev. 12 is the Middle of the week. In Rev. 13, the Beast arises out of the Sea in the Middle of the Week !! He comes to power and Rules for 42 Months (1260 days). How can people not see how God designed all of Rev. 12 around this 1260 event ? 

Rev. 7 is Israel Fleeing and God protecting ALL Israel, {144,000 All Israel} before the Trumpet Judgments start. Then we see the Raptured Bride one last time in Heaven, the Church that came out of the 2000 year (Great Tribulation) Tribulation period is seen in Rev. 7:9-17. 

Rev. 8 are the Trumpet Judgments, and Rev. 9 are two of the Woes, then the 3rd Woe is seen in Rev. 16, its All SEVEN VIALS, just like the 7th Seal is All SEVEN TRUMPETS (Think Symmetry). Rev. 16 ends Satan's reign on earth, Jesus takes over the deed once again. 

Rev. 20, Satan is locked in the pit for 1000 years and those Beheaded under the Alter are JUDGED, the ones Jesus gave White robes to and told them to wait. Rev. 21 and 22 is the ever-after and New Jerusalem. No other chapters are a part of the Chronological order of Revelation.  

The Visions that reveal events not spoken of in the Chronological order of the book of Revelation.

Rev. 11 is about the Two-witnesses 1260 day Ministry. God gave it this exact length so we could juxtapose it against the Beasts 42 Month (1260 days) rule. Thus they show up before the Beast to turn Israel unto God, and they also die before the Beast dies. Its a pretty easy understanding to be honest. But since Revelation "HAS TO BE" in order that can't be right, even though it is !! The Two-witnesses die before the Beast, IF both have 1260 days in their office so to speak then if one dies first, then he must also show up first, a 5th grader taking out preconceived prejudices could get that in 3 seconds. 

Rev. 12 is also simple, its about the Anti-Christ chasing the Jews (Israel or the Woman) into the Wilderness where Gd protects her for 1260 days.

Rev. 13 is the Beast arising in the Mediterranean Sea, thus he becomes a Beast over Israel AND the MANY in the whole region, just like all the Beasts were.

Rev. 14 is about the RAPTURE Harvest on a Cloud by Jesus and the Wine-press Harvest of the Wicked on earth at Armageddon. 

Rev. 17 is the Kings in league with the Beast destroying ALL RELIGIONS thus the Harlot (All False Religion) is destroyed, that happens in Rev. ch. 6.

Rev. 18 is Babylon (Whole World) getting hit with Gods Plagues, the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues !! It starts at the first Seal and ends at the 7th Vial.

Rev. 19 covers the Marriage of the Church/Bride unto the Lamb, in Heaven. 

Its VERY CLEAR that Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 start in the Middle of the Week. Its VERY CLEAR that Rev. 11 starts before Rev. 6, as does Rev. ch. 19. And Rev. 14 is the Rapture Harvest and the Wine-press Harvest of the Wicked. 

 

You were off in your first comment. The 7th trumpet is the MOW, not the 6th seal. Thanks for trying though.

Most of your other things are off too. 

[iamlamad]

On 8/31/2018 at 8:56 PM, Revelation Man said:

 

These are one and the same !!

The Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath, begins when Jesus opens the first seal. God thus begins directing hostilities towards men on earth, He is giving them their hearts desire, a tyrants rule of law over Gods rule, just like He gave Israel a King when He didn't desire it. Rev. 6:16-17 tells us the inhabitants on earth understand they are in the Wrath of the Lamb/God (Jesus is God), but it never states the Wrath started with the 6th Seal, that is just some man or men's opinions. The Wrath started with the very first seal, the inhabitants on earth finally understand they are in the Wrath of God when the heavens above correlate with the Old Testament scriptures (and New Testament also), thus the sun and moon give not their lights. Thus the Day of the Lord starts when Jesus opens the first seal. We see at least 1.5 to 2 Billion people killed by this tyrant, the Anti-Christ/Beast, we see the ones who were Saints of God in the 5th Seal, under the Alter of God, awaiting Jesus' return where they can be raised and judged in Rev. 20:4, these reign with Christ 1000 years, per verse 20:4 they have to have been in the world when the Beast ruled, thus these are not Church Age Saints, they (we) are in Heaven, marrying the Lamb when this is going on on earth. 

So the Church is Raptured to Heaven to spend 7 years in the marriage chambers with Christ as is the Jewish tradition (7 days) of marriage. Then Israel are called unto Repentance before the Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6) and thus God protects them for 1260 days. Thus Gods Wrath is not poured out on His people, UNLESS they do not heed/obey his voice and Flee unto Petra. As per the Christians who are killed, they became Christians AFTER the Rapture, thus they were shut out of the wedding just like Matthew 25 stipulates. They were the 5 foolish virgins who served God but had no oil (Holy Spirit) to find the way. Everything is designed around the Middle of the week.

God designed all of Revelation/end time eschatology around the midway point of the 70th week. All of us Christians are supposed to use this number to understand everything, instead we have managed to bring forth zillions of ideas, thereby confusing the masses in some cases, as per to what the Day of the Lord is, when it is, and even as pertaining to who brings it forth to meet out the judgments.  The Middle of the week is the beginning of the Day of the Lord, God designed everything around it where we can't misunderstand it, but yet many still don't sadly.

The Rapture is where the church goes to be with the Lord in the Marriage chambers (IN MY FATHERS HOUSE) in Heaven for 7 years representing the 7 days of a Jewish Wedding. The Marriage supper happens after we return with Jesus, its the Armageddon carnage. At EXACTLY the 1260 day point (Middle of the week) Jesus opens the First Seal and Gods Wrath on mankind is released. The Beast goes forth and kills 1.5 Billion to 2 billion people along with famine and pestilence. The Beast rules over Jerusalem and the Mediterranean Sea Region for 42 months, the Jews who Flee are protected for 42 months. The Two-witnesses witness for 1260 Days (42 months) but show up before the Beast does and thus dies before he does. 

Well the 70th week will start once the Gentile Church is Raptured. Thus 3.5 years later the Beast will be released to go forth and Conquer. 

1.) No Seals have been open nor will any be opened unto the Middle of the 70th week gets here. 

2.) The Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord is designed to be known, its in HUGH LETTERS SAYING, LOOK.....LOOK......LOOK......its the 1260 Event. 

For the readers: the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.  We are waiting in the rapture / Day of the Lord. it will come at the 6th seal.

[n2thelight]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Not really. It was SUNDAY when this vision happened to John.  

A day of the week has nothing to do with it.

[Revelation Man]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You were off in your first comment. The 7th trumpet is the MOW, not the 6th seal. Thanks for trying though.

Most of your other things are off too. 

Nothing I understand about Revelation or the end times is off because I only relay what the holy spirit actually teaches me, I am not just "GUESSING" like most others I see. You have the rapture partially right, but most everything else you just seem to get on the wrong road via wrong turns, its OK to be wrong if we learn from our bad understandings, but to stand still in these errors, when being corrected by the holy spirit is just mind numbing to me. Which is why I do not like to chew my cabbage twice most the times with these types. Its just a waste sadly. 

I mean the 7th Trumpet being the MoW is just an astonishing statement. The MoW of the 70th WEEK MIND YOU...........(According to you) comes near the end at the 7th Trumpet which is the LAST WOE, which is ALL SEVEN Vials. Israel have already been protected for over 1100 days...........but its supposedly the MoW. Its just astonishing, the lack of basic math and logic can only be cause by ENTRENCHED IDEAS !! Come on brother, it can't be the Middle of the Week.

Its like you guys put the horse before the cart and then try to justify it, its just never going to work. All because Revelation has "GOT TO BE" in order even though IT DON'T GOT TO BE" in order. FIRST MISTAKE leads to a multitude of mistakes.

I understand why your rebuts are so short, you can't argue against my facts brother. So you make one quip and move on, which means you lose the argument by default. 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For the readers: the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.  We are waiting in the rapture / Day of the Lord. it will come at the 6th seal.

Nothing has been opened and you will see and understand that when you get to heaven brother. 

We see the Church in Heaven and Jesus is about to open the Seals. Again, starting with bad info leads us down wrong turns. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Not really. It was SUNDAY when this vision happened to John.  

Or maybe it was John being Raptured to Heaven on the Lords Day or the Day of Gods Wrath...........Day of the Lord...........Lords Day !! 

John is shown the Churches and then the Wrath of God, which starts at the First Seal or the Day of the Lord. 

It could be either Sunday or the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath), mind you I am not convinced of either or that it matters that much, just pointing out that there is another argument on this. 

1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

A day of the week has nothing to do with it.

It could go either way. I kinda lean to John being in Heaven on the Day Gods Wrath starts........in the spirit. But I am not convinced of either 100 percent. 

[OldCoot]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

John is shown the Churches and then the Wrath of God, which starts at the First Seal or the Day of the Lord.

I tend to agree here.   The events that occur via the seals being opened, by implication, would not have occurred lest Yeshua opened those seals.  So it would seem that these events occur only by the hand of Yeshua.  The sixth seal specifically, those on the the earth are wanting to hide from "the wrath of the Lamb".  And there is some sense that these seals are occurring in quick fashion and are interlinked to be unified, though they are different.  Makes sense.  They are all on the same scroll.   So the 6th seal being opened and those on the earth claiming it is the wrath of the Lamb, by extension, could apply to all the seals. Again, same scroll.

And it is not a wise move to suggest that it is the wrath of the Lamb and not God's so the wrath of God has not started.  Either Yeshua the Lamb is God or He is not.

Isaiah 44:6 (NKJV) “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Revelation 22:13 (NKJV) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Revelation 2:8 (NKJV) “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I tend to agree here.   The events that occur via the seals being opened, by implication, would not have occurred lest Yeshua opened those seals.  So it would seem that these events occur only by the hand of Yeshua.  The sixth seal specifically, those on the the earth are wanting to hide from "the wrath of the Lamb".  And there is some sense that these seals are occurring in quick fashion and are interlinked to be unified, though they are different.  Makes sense.  They are all on the same scroll.   So the 6th seal being opened and those on the earth claiming it is the wrath of the Lamb, by extension, could apply to all the seals. Again, same scroll.

And it is not a wise move to suggest that it is the wrath of the Lamb and not God's so the wrath of God has not started.  Either Yeshua the Lamb is God or He is not.

Isaiah 44:6 (NKJV) “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Revelation 22:13 (NKJV) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Revelation 2:8 (NKJV) “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life

What they do is allow a "VISION" of people on earth who proclaim, "We are in the Wrath of the Lamb" to become THE WRATH started at the 6th Seal. Even though it started at the First Seal. I could have lived in 1890 and saw a vision of WW2, and I could have seen people being liberated in a vision from Hitler, but that doesn't change the fact that 6 Million people were murdered. Its all about understanding the details. 

The Wrath of the Lamb and the Wrath of God are one an the same, you are correct. What most don't get is all the Wrath comes from the 7 Seals. The 7th Seal is the Seven Trumpets and thus the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe (the 3rd Woe is ALL SEVEN Vials). So the 7th Seal brings forth all the Trumpets and Vials from its opening. So the Opening of the Seals is Gods Wrath. 

[OldCoot]

Sounds sensible.  While there is a chronological progression of Revelation, it also shows a parenthetical pattern also.  I liken it to the old overhead projectors we had back in the day, where one layer of transparency was placed on the projector that showed part of the pattern.  Then another, then another, then another.  Each layer providing more detail on top of the others so that the picture becomes more detailed and clearer.  

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Or maybe it was John being Raptured to Heaven on the Lords Day or the Day of Gods Wrath...........Day of the Lord...........Lords Day !! 

John is shown the Churches and then the Wrath of God, which starts at the First Seal or the Day of the Lord. 

It could be either Sunday or the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath), mind you I am not convinced of either or that it matters that much, just pointing out that there is another argument on this. 

It could go either way. I kinda lean to John being in Heaven on the Day Gods Wrath starts........in the spirit. But I am not convinced of either 100 percent. 

No, He was raised to heaven around 95 AD - way to early for the Day of the Lord. What he saw was a vision or visions of the Day of the Lord. 

You are miles off: the DAY starts at the 6th seal, not the first seal. The first seal was opened around 32 AD and is to represent the church sent out with the gospel.