Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[JoeCanada]

14 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joe, if the period of God's wrath, in the second half of the week, is one year in length, will we not know the day of Christ's return? Do you believe that we can now know the day, whereas during Christ's ministry only the Father knew the day. 

Also, if you have a comprehensive list of Scriptures that may indicate the period length of God's wrath in the second half of the week could you provide them? Thanks

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Hi Steve...

I don't think that we can know the exact day of Christ's return. Like scripture states, only the Father knows the day and hour.  However, I believe we can know the approximate time, that is to say, maybe within a week or maybe a month.

Do we know from scripture how long the Day of the Lord is? Yes, I believe we do. Here are a few supporting scriptures.....

Scripture tells us in Isaiah......34:8....For it is the Day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense....

                                     61:2....To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn

                                      63:4....For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come

In Math 24:37, Jesus tells us ....."But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be"

In Gen 7:11, we find the start of the flood...."600th year,  2nd month, 17th day"............

And in Gen 8:14, we see the end of the flood where Noah and family left the ark..... "601st yr, 2nd month, 27th day"

So the ark was above the flood waters ONE YEAR and TEN DAYS. 

In Deut 24:5......When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken. (Deut. 24:5)

This prescription about marriage will be honored by Jesus. He will marry the Bride of Christ in heaven after the Rapture. Only a year later will he return to wage war against the Antichrist armies.  In Revelation 19 we see this exact order of events. The Wedding Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven  first, only then does Jesus mount a white horse and return to the earth to fight Armageddon.  There is a one year period between the wedding and the return. That year will be the Day of the Lord.

There is also a clue from Luke. He talks about the celestial and terrestrial disturbances, Luke 21:25-27,  then he says...."When these things come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh"....verse 25

Jesus also tells us that He's going to cut short the Tribulation for the sake of the elect....Math 24:22 . The Tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years. He's going to cut it short by the Day of the Lord.

 Scripture doesn't support the Day of the Lord being 7 years or 3 1/2 years or 1000 years long as some suggest. But it does support being ONE YEAR long.

Hope this helps Steve.

Edited August 24, 2018 by JoeCanada
added to it

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is a very slight similarity between how Noah was saved, how Abraham was saved, how Moses was saved, and how we are saved under the New Covenant: we are ALL saved by grace through faith in God.  (By grace are you saved through faith.)

For Noah, his faith was that God would save him by way of the ark Noah built.  For Abraham, his faith was that God would save him simply because he believed in God and God spoke salvation to him. For Moses, His faith was that God would save him through his keeping the law. Our faith today is that God will save us by our faith in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Why then do you argue against truth?  Why argue against scripture? Does it now read "the Law was until John?" The truth is THINGS CHANGE. The way God has dealt with man has changed over the ages. And the truth is, during the 70th week it will change again. 

There is more: we are in the time of the Gentiles. One day the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, the rapture will take place, and God will focus on Israel once again.  You can doubt these things if you wish, but you will be wrong in your thinking. 

There is so much wrong here I dont know how to respond.

So I won't. 

You will see. Soon.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Agreed.  Consensus is one of the worst, most unreliable indicators of truth.

And yet, as it suits iamlamad he will cite the consensus as proof. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

What leads anyone to think "the things which shall be hereafter" is 'after the churches'? Did Jesus or John say this? In fact it's more rational to assume that time is the factor here, the moment of existence, since a time reference fulfills both 'are' and 'hereafter' without adding what isn't there. 

 

You already posted this and it's the same refutation.

 

 

And 'escape' must be a pretrib rapture? Hardly.

Jesus also said in Matt 24, "15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Since the worst ever time occurs just after the A of D, where it was possible that no person would survive, why did Jesus say to run? Should not be necessary since the pretrib rapture would have already happened. Now you could say this is just for the Jews, but through the entire chapter Jesus was speaking to those of His name.

Also in keeping with this theme of running in Matt 24, Luke 21:36 says exactly the same thing. Now I know you and your leaders would love to believe the word 'escape' in Luke 21:36 means 'pretrib rapture' but it does not. The word that appears in Luke 21:36 is 'ekpheugó' and it is defined as:

Short Definition: I flee out, away, I escape
Definition: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

 

This is the personal an individual act of running away from something, and not a forcible removal by an authority from one place to another of an individual or group.

You really have to do the work on this stuff and stop believing what the wolves are telling you to believe. If Jesus meant to say 'pretrib rapture' he had every opportunity to do so, and did not. Luke agrees with the running away from Matt 24. Luke 21:21, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; "

Now why would Luke say this and then go on to say there is as pretrib rapture in 21:36? He would not. The pretrib take on this creates contradictions and subverts the truth.

The true order should occur in this manner:

The beast rises to power after the deadly wound is healed, confirms an existing covenant and protects Israel from the Islamic radicals trying to destroy her while the Temple is being built.

The moment the beast emerges on the world stage the two witness show up in Jerusalem to warn the Jews they have made a huge mistake entering into agreement with this man.

The false prophet is showing his deceptive signs and wonders at this time and the two witnesses demonstrate the power of the Most High in even greater power and authority.

When the beast rises and the witnesses appear trumps begin to sound.

The Temple is completed, the sacrifices begin and shortly after the beast profanes the Temple, blasphemes God, and then declares himself to be the great god.

He kills the two witnesses, the world rejoices and has a big party, and the GT begins.

At the proper time the sign of the coming of the Son of Man appears in heaven and it's all over but the crying. Jesus appears, the 7th trump sounds, elect are gathered, and those who refuse the saving grace of the Lamb and and Almighty God are in danger of meeting a destiny from which there is no return.

This is the literal and conservative approach. It's also the most frightening as it will require endurance and sacrifice. Jesus will be there for us so there is no need to fear. More are with us then are against us.

Imagine 6 brothers setting at the dining table eating. The youngest thinks mom  is not looking and lifts the lid on the brown sugar jar and steals a lump of brown sugar and is about to pop it into his mouth - when Mom suddenly says loudly: "DON'T DO IT!"  Now, was this command directed at any of the older brothers - or only at the youngest? 

There is a concept here that you have overlooked or else just intentionally ignore.  That concept is to WHOM a scripture is addressed. 

Matt 24, "15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 

Was Jesus speaking of those living in New York City? Or was he particularly speaking to those living in Judea?   Of course, Judea. That verse would be useless for people living anywhere else.

Remember, the rapture is ONLY for those "In Christ" either living or already passed.  The rapture will have NO EFFECT on anyone living in Judea that is not born again. They will still be there at the midpoint of the week when the abomination happens. 

Why therefore do you ignore the exact words of Jesus when He said "Let THEM which be in Judea...?"  In fact, Jesus was speaking ONLY to them in this one verse.  Why? Because God's word is out: He is going to protect those in Judea who flee. There is no verse anywhere saying He will protect those that flee in any other city in the world.  Why those in Judea? There is another verse that tells us that at least a part of Jordan will not see the Antichrist. it will be a SAFE place. 

Therefore I DO say that the olivet discourse is for the most part directed to the Jews and Hebrews about the end of THEIR age, that is about the 70th week.  Daniel himself told us it was for HIS people. 

Sorry, another huge error: the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT, not the end.  "When will they ever learn."

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

There is so much wrong here I dont know how to respond.

So I won't. 

You will see. Soon.

Its all scripture. It seems then that your theories are not.  But then, that is what I have been trying to get across for some time now.

[HAZARD]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

What leads anyone to think "the things which shall be hereafter" is 'after the churches'? Did Jesus or John say this? In fact it's more rational to assume that time is the factor here, the moment of existence, since a time reference fulfills both 'are' and 'hereafter' without adding what isn't there. 

 

You already posted this and it's the same refutation.

 

 

And 'escape' must be a pretrib rapture? Hardly.

Jesus also said in Matt 24, "15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Since the worst ever time occurs just after the A of D, where it was possible that no person would survive, why did Jesus say to run? Should not be necessary since the pretrib rapture would have already happened. Now you could say this is just for the Jews, but through the entire chapter Jesus was speaking to those of His name.

Also in keeping with this theme of running in Matt 24, Luke 21:36 says exactly the same thing. Now I know you and your leaders would love to believe the word 'escape' in Luke 21:36 means 'pretrib rapture' but it does not. The word that appears in Luke 21:36 is 'ekpheugó' and it is defined as:

Short Definition: I flee out, away, I escape
Definition: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

 

This is the personal an individual act of running away from something, and not a forcible removal by an authority from one place to another of an individual or group.

You really have to do the work on this stuff and stop believing what the wolves are telling you to believe. If Jesus meant to say 'pretrib rapture' he had every opportunity to do so, and did not. Luke agrees with the running away from Matt 24. Luke 21:21, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; "

Now why would Luke say this and then go on to say there is as pretrib rapture in 21:36? He would not. The pretrib take on this creates contradictions and subverts the truth.

The true order should occur in this manner:

The beast rises to power after the deadly wound is healed, confirms an existing covenant and protects Israel from the Islamic radicals trying to destroy her while the Temple is being built.

The moment the beast emerges on the world stage the two witness show up in Jerusalem to warn the Jews they have made a huge mistake entering into agreement with this man.

The false prophet is showing his deceptive signs and wonders at this time and the two witnesses demonstrate the power of the Most High in even greater power and authority.

When the beast rises and the witnesses appear trumps begin to sound.

The Temple is completed, the sacrifices begin and shortly after the beast profanes the Temple, blasphemes God, and then declares himself to be the great god.

He kills the two witnesses, the world rejoices and has a big party, and the GT begins.

At the proper time the sign of the coming of the Son of Man appears in heaven and it's all over but the crying. Jesus appears, the 7th trump sounds, elect are gathered, and those who refuse the saving grace of the Lamb and and Almighty God are in danger of meeting a destiny from which there is no return.

This is the literal and conservative approach. It's also the most frightening as it will require endurance and sacrifice. Jesus will be there for us so there is no need to fear. More are with us then are against us.

 

 

 

There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22. 

[HAZARD]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are correct. Pretrib is unsustainable as it fails open examination, and it will never enter my thinking.

Be prepared, there will be no pretrib rapture.

When the deadly wound is healed and the witnesses appear in Jerusalem find me and we can talk further.

  You can stay and endure the tribulation if you so wish.

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

 

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

Jesus said that the angels don't know when the rapture will happen, He also said that even He does not know. So if the angels don't know then Satan also doesn't know when it will happen. Only the Father knows according to Jesus.

 

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

 

Jesus replied,

 

Mark 13:32, But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

Scripture also states that Satan knows that he has but a short time.

 

Revelation 12:12,Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

Taking in the fact that we and Satan live in eternity future, Satan knew he had but a short time the day he rebelled against the Father, and the fact the Jesus defeated him by His death and resurrection. Any length of time cut from a life to be lived in eternity, no matter when this occurs will be but a short time.

 

The disciples asked Jesus when will this all occur?

 

 

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

 

5, And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

    

6, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    

7, And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

    

8, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

 

9, But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    

10, And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

 

All these things so far at one time or another have been happening since Jesus returned to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us. The only thing I can see that has not yet occurred is the fact the gospel has not yet been preached among all nations.

 

There have been tribes found deep in South America, Papua New Guinea, and other parts of the Earth that have not yet even heard of God, the gospel, or Jesus.

[iamlamad]

Just now, HAZARD said:

There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22. 

This "after the churches" theory is only that: a theory that the scriptures really do not say. 

When John wrote, "after these things," He used it as a transitional phrase, to transition to another subject. He use this or a similar phrase 6 times in Revelation. Don't read into it what is not there!

Notice carefully that John did NOT write, "after the church age" or anything like that.  And chapter 4 begins with JOHN being called up to heaven, around 95 AD. Was 95 AD "after the church age?" Of course it was not.

Let me help you find the transition you are looking for:  the transition from the church age to the Day of the Lord that will follow. First, find the start of the DAY. That is not difficult, for it is written: the last sentence of the 6th seal tells us the Day of His wrath has come. 

Since Paul shows us in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that THE DAY will begin the instant the rapture  event is finished, then we can know that the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal for almost 2000 years now. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for their full number before judgment can come.  What will cause their full number? The rapture that will end the church age will then END all church age martyrs. So a strong hint to the rapture is found here at the 5th seal. The rapture then will come one instant before the 6th seal.

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

  You can stay and endure the tribulation if you so wish.

 

The Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

Jesus said that the angels don't know when the rapture will happen, He also said that even He does not know. So if the angels don't know then Satan also doesn't know when it will happen. Only the Father knows according to Jesus.

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Jesus replied,

Mark 13:32, But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Scripture also states that Satan knows that he has but a short time.

Revelation 12:12,Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Taking in the fact that we and Satan live in eternity future, Satan knew he had but a short time the day he rebelled against the Father, and the fact the Jesus defeated him by His death and resurrection. Any length of time cut from a life to be lived in eternity, no matter when this occurs will be but a short time.

The disciples asked Jesus when will this all occur?

Mark 13:4, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

5, And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6, For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7, And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9, But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10, And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

l these things so far at one time or another have been happening since Jesus returned to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to keep us and guide us. The only thing I can see that has not yet occurred is the fact the gospel has not yet been preached among all nations.

There have been tribes found deep in South America, Papua New Guinea, and other parts of the Earth that have not yet even heard of God, the gospel, or Jesus.

 

You were doing well until you got to Catholicism. 

[HAZARD]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

You were doing well until you got to Catholicism. 

I'm no catholic, far from it. You would do well to read every scripture provided with an open and honest heart, before you respond. Like I said, if the rapture occurs before we die, your free to refuse to go, enjoy the tribulation.