Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Prove that with scripture. Seriously. You are so assured 'the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint' it should be easy to provide scriptural proof this is the case.

The truth is the 7th trump marks the moment of the gathering; the last trump, for the trump shall sound. This last trump, the 7th, occurs a moment before the wrath of the 6th seal. It must be so as we are not destined to wrath, and wrath begins at the 6th seal, and the coming of our Lord and the gathering are associated with the last trump. The last trump is the 7th trump as it can only be this one according to scripture. In the whole of the bible there is only one series of trumps numbered from 1-7. These trumps sound in order from 1st to last, ergo the 7th trump is obviously the last trump.

So then, the 7th and last trump sounds when the angels go about to gather the elect, which must happen after the 5th seal events, and before the signs of the appearing, and the appearing, of our Lord Jesus at the 6th seal. Further meaning the 7th trump sounds well after the A of D as the events pictured in the 5th seal are a result of the A of D. 

So this also means the trumps are sounding from the beginning of the last week up to sometime in the latter part of the week when the 7th trump sounds and the 6th seal condition of wrath begins.

 

To begin with, when God first began to teach me about Revelation He sent me to find "the exact midpoint clearly marked." These are His words, not mine. I asked Him how I would find that (Actually it was my spirit man that asked because I was in the Spirit) and He told me:  "Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time; when you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

I understand, for those who have never heard the voice of our Lord, they will find this very difficult to believe - but it is truth anyway for HE IS TRUTH.  

Therefore, the exact midpoint MUST BE found in chapters 11 through 13 where the five mentions of the 3 1/2 years is found. I found what He sent me to find: I found the midpoint was "marked" with a 7. It is apparent you still have not found that.  

I will agree, the 7th trumpet in Revelation is indeed the last of THAT SERIES of trumpets, but Paul was not talking about this series in Revelation: he was talking about the series of trumpets in the Feast of Trumpets. 

John gave us a strong hint to the time of the rapture: the great crowd seen in heaven in chapter 7. Stop and think: all those who died in Christ, generation after generation: BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of people in Christ. No wonder John said too large to number! They have been dying now for almost 2000 years!  But I already know you don't see that crowd as the rapture church. Those preconceived glasses you wear just won't allow that! Because you "know" the rapture is at the end, this large group cannot be the raptured church. Well, they are, whether you believe it or not. They were raptured right when Paul told us they would be - just before the start of the Wrath of God.

You and I are not going to agree on much, for we read all these end times scriptures very differently. 

By the way, which group do you think will be bigger: all those gathered at Paul's rapture - or the saints put to death during the days of GT?

Edited August 25, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Its probably one I posted on this subject some time ago on another forum. This is not the only forum I visit.

The great whore is the rcc. Rev. 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 

Rev. 17:4-6,  4, And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 
    5, And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 
    6, And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 

The above does not describe Islam.

The Antichrist, will be a mortal man, will reign over only ten kingdoms that are yet to be formed inside the yet to be revived, Old Roman Empire. (Dan. 7:23-24). Only these ten kingdoms will give their power and kingdoms to him. (Rev.13:1; 17:12-17). Certain countries will escape his rule (Dan.11:40-44). Certain countries will make war on him at the very time he is supposed to be ruling the whole world (Dan. 11:40-44). The rcc in Rome will support him in all his endeavours.

You are greatly mistaken! The "whore" is the city of Jerusalem! John TOLD US it was the great city. Why Jerusalem? Because the Beast and False Prophet will deceived THE ENTIRE WORLD from that city during the days of GT.  The truth is, it will be HIS religion, but it will start out as Islam. He will declare HE is the God of the Jews, and will require all to worship HIM.  Most Muslims will buy into his lie. Most Buddhists will buy into his lie. Most Hindu's will buy into his lie. In fact, all false religions will buy into his lie!  They will all believe he is really the one true God - and he will have lying miracles to prove it! 

Go back to the image in Daniel chapter 2: who is living today in the land of Babylon (the head made of gold)? That is Iraq. In fact, Iraq received the deadly wound and its king was hung until dead.  Make no mistake, the vast majority of people living in Iraq today are Muslims. 

Who is living in the land of ancient Persia? Today that is Iran, and the vast majority of people in Iran are Muslims - everyone knows Iran is a Muslim nation. 

Indeed, I could go down the list of all those 5 empires that are now "fallen." They ALL controlled Israel for some period of time, and that is why they are on this list. And today all those nations that surround Israel are Muslim nations.  Go back to that image: today we are living in the age of the feet and toes - really, the toes. They were iron and clay and they would not mix. Have you noticed that Muslims DO NOT MIX? They always try to make their country an Islamic country - even when their population is single digit in comparison to the majority population. I am convinced the clay is referencing Islamic people, and the Iron, probably the general population of Europe before the Islamic invasion!

Then, I just have to believe John! The ONLY place in scripture where the Antichrist is mentioned: John tells us the Antichrist people will NOT confess the Father and the SON.  So what religion in the world today does this fit?

 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Tis true. And at the time when these things will be fulfilled Jesus is addressing we who believe on Him.

"For many will come in my name,"

"you will be hated by all nations because of me"

 "So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

"to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

This is not addressed to the 'Jews', it's to any and all who believe on Jesus. But one has to understand in the spirit, the most important condition, there is no such thing as race, only  those born again and  the unsaved. Even if one divides based on race Jesus cannot be addressing Jews here.  The Jews don't believe in or on Christ. They won't care if 10,000 come in the name of Jesus, The Jews are hated for the name of Jesus, and the deception will not affect the ELECT, which is the group of Jesus followers. So no, Matt 24 is primarily directed at Christians, not a race.

""you will be hated by all nations because of me" Again we must think to WHOM Jesus was addressing: they were ALL JEWS. Yes, they would become born again Jews, but they were all descendants of Jacob.  

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

What is this "gospel of the Kingdom?" What Kingdom? Remember, this is during the 70th week and the MILLENNIAL Kingdom was very soon to come. In Jesus day it was the Kingdom of God in their hearts. The message of the 11 was simple: believe that Jesus is your Messiah, and you will be saved. 

This was a very different Gospel than what Paul called "MY GOSPEL," the very gospel in which we will all be judged!  His gospel is the death, burial and Resurrection of our Lord. If any can believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and have courage to confess Jesus as their Lord, they will be saved. 

So what happened to this Jewish church? John wrote to seven of them. The truth is, they all died out!  Because the NATION of Israel did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, God turned to the Gentiles. We are a part of the GENTILE church. 

[JoeCanada]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

And yet you rarely cite anything beyond personal beliefs.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am sure we all know most of the end times scriptures in the bible. I also know we read these scriptures differently.

 

 

Hi iamlamad....

Citing scripture is most helpful to all, especially to those who may not know them, or are new to scriptures, and are looking for answers.

Diaste is right. If you don't use scripture to prove what you say, then it sounds like personal beliefs.

Sure, it takes a little longer. But what's the hurry anyways?

[iamlamad]

55 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Hi iamlamad....

Citing scripture is most helpful to all, especially to those who may not know them, or are new to scriptures, and are looking for answers.

Diaste is right. If you don't use scripture to prove what you say, then it sounds like personal beliefs.

Sure, it takes a little longer. But what's the hurry anyways?

Right. Good post. The problem is, I post a scripture that proves something to me, but to no one else:  for each seems to read a scripture differently. I will do better!

Edited August 25, 2018 by iamlamad

[HAZARD]

There are three brands men will have a choice of taking in the days of the Antichrist inside his kingdom. They are his name, his mark, and the number of his name (Rev. 13:16-18). The name and mark of this man is not given in scripture; so no one will know what they are until he comes and men get to know what his name and mark will be, and what he will chose to put on his followers. The only one of these three brands that is given is the number of his name, and that is stated as being 666 in Rev. 13:18. So 666 is not the name or the mark of the beast. It is the number of the beast.
 
"the fourth beast" shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth [from Daniel's time to Christ's coming] which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth....And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten] and shall subdue three kings [of the ten, which are the other three divisions of Greece besides Syria, the one the Antichrist shall come from]" (Dan. 7:23-24), "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have recieved no kingdom as yet: but recieve power as kings one hour [period] with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them.
The Old Roman Empire is to be revived. So, in what form will she exist. There will never be a Revived Roman Empire as a single empire ruled by one man as in the Old Roman Empire, but there will be ten separate governments formed inside this territory, as the seventh head on the beast. This kingdom could best be called the Revised Roman Empire. Rome is to exist in the form of ten kingdoms in the last days before the revelation of both Christ and Antichrist. These kingdoms will still be in existence during the appearance of both and will be overthrown, first by Antichrist and then by Christ.
In Dan. 2:40-45 we have the first picture of Rome symbolized by two legs of iron and ten toes of iron and clay. Rome never has existed yet in the form of separate kingdoms, as symbolized by the ten toes, so in order for all the prophecy to be fulfilled it must exist as such. However Rome has existed as one kingdom, symbolized by the lower part of the body, where the legs are joined to the body. Then too, Rome has existed in the form of two divisions as symbolized by the two legs of iron, representing the eastern and western divisions of the empire. The time of the existence of the ten kingdoms is clearly stated in Dan.2:44-45 as being in the day that the God of Heaven sets up a kingdom. God has yet not set up His kingdom and will not do so untill the coming of His Son, Jesus Christ, who will reign forever (Isa.9:6, 7: Dan. 7:13-14; Rev. 11:15). This proves that the Roman Empire will again exist in a new form of ten kingdoms at the time of the second advent,which will succeed old Rome as Rome succeeded the first five heads (kingdoms) on the beast. The ten toes of the two feet on the two legs of Dan. 2:38-45 represent ten kingdoms from the eastern and western divisions of Rome, five from one and five from the other. The phrase "the kingdom" is used twice in Dan. 2:40-45 and shows the unity of the ten kingdoms in some kind of loose federation.
Dan. 7:7-27 shows that there will come out of Rome ten kingdoms which will exist at the same time as the above ten kings. The additional prophecy given here is that "another little horn," called "the beast" in Dan. 7:11, will arise "after them" and overthrow three others. This little horn will continue "untill the Ancient of days" comes, and judgment is given to the saints of the Most High, and the time arrives for the saints to possess the kingdom. This relates to the coming of Christ to destroy the Antichrist and the ten kings and set up His kingdom, and proves that these ten kings and the eleventh king will all exist at the time of the coming of Christ. The ten will give their kingdoms to the eleventh or the beast, and they together will destroy Mystery Babylon, or religion in the middle of the Week, and then three and one half years later, they will fight Christ at Armageddon (Rev. 17:12-17). This beast of Dan. 7:11 is to be slain like the one in Rev. 19:20. Thus we see that Rome is to revised and exist in the form of ten separate kingdoms.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

""you will be hated by all nations because of me" Again we must think to WHOM Jesus was addressing: they were ALL JEWS. Yes, they would become born again Jews, but they were all descendants of Jacob.  

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

What is this "gospel of the Kingdom?" What Kingdom? Remember, this is during the 70th week and the MILLENNIAL Kingdom was very soon to come. In Jesus day it was the Kingdom of God in their hearts. The message of the 11 was simple: believe that Jesus is your Messiah, and you will be saved. 

This was a very different Gospel than what Paul called "MY GOSPEL," the very gospel in which we will all be judged!  His gospel is the death, burial and Resurrection of our Lord. If any can believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and have courage to confess Jesus as their Lord, they will be saved. 

So what happened to this Jewish church? John wrote to seven of them. The truth is, they all died out!  Because the NATION of Israel did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, God turned to the Gentiles. We are a part of the GENTILE church. 

John wrote to 7 churches? You mean the ones in Revelation? You are equating the Jewish church with the 7 churches from Revelation? 

Um...those 7 churches were in Asia. "To the seven churches in the province of Asia:" Rev 1:4. Turkey is where these churches began. Gentile churches.

And it's all the same Gospel. Paul did not preach a different Gospel than Jesus preached. 

[Diaste]

 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I will agree, the 7th trumpet in Revelation is indeed the last of THAT SERIES of trumpets, but Paul was not talking about this series in Revelation: he was talking about the series of trumpets in the Feast of Trumpets. 

There is no series of trumps in the "feast" of trumpets. 

Lev 23:24, " 24“Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts." And this is the highly touted "feast" of trumpets of which there is a first and last trump. Not true. There are just trumps here. No 1st and last. No beginning. No end. Your pretrib take relies on the Talmud, which is man's tradition, not truth. 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Because you "know" the rapture is at the end, this large group cannot be the raptured church. 

No. The gathering comes before the end of the week, after GT which is cut short. The last week is three periods of time: The beginning of sorrows (3.5 years), GT (Undetermined but lasting less than 3.5 years), the wrath of the Lamb (months long, maybe 6-9 months, perhaps a year)

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— (This is the midpoint as Daniel said) 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (The above days of GT are truncated)

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.(After the GT Jesus comes and gathers the elect in the one and only gathering in all of scripture at the time of the end.)

So in reality the gathering comes some months, perhaps a year, before the end of the week, and happens just before wrath falls, the same wrath that will continue to the end of the week coinciding with the 42 month reign of the beast.

 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

They were raptured right when Paul told us they would be - just before the start of the Wrath of God.

Truth. Now you have to realize that the last week is not synonymous with God's wrath, and that God's wrath only occurs within the last year of the final week of years, and you have the correct order: sorrows, A of D, GT, the coming of the Lord, the gathering(one and only) and then wrath falls.

 

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

By the way, which group do you think will be bigger: all those gathered at Paul's rapture - or the saints put to death during the days of GT?

It's the same group. All will be resurrected and transformed at or near the same moment. Why is it that people must segregate? Baffling.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 

There is no series of trumps in the "feast" of trumpets. 

Lev 23:24, " 24“Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts." And this is the highly touted "feast" of trumpets of which there is a first and last trump. Not true. There are just trumps here. No 1st and last. No beginning. No end. Your pretrib take relies on the Talmud, which is man's tradition, not truth. 

No. The gathering comes before the end of the week, after GT which is cut short. The last week is three periods of time: The beginning of sorrows (3.5 years), GT (Undetermined but lasting less than 3.5 years), the wrath of the Lamb (months long, maybe 6-9 months, perhaps a year)

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— (This is the midpoint as Daniel said) 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. (The above days of GT are truncated)

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.(After the GT Jesus comes and gathers the elect in the one and only gathering in all of scripture at the time of the end.)

So in reality the gathering comes some months, perhaps a year, before the end of the week, and happens just before wrath falls, the same wrath that will continue to the end of the week coinciding with the 42 month reign of the beast.

 

Truth. Now you have to realize that the last week is not synonymous with God's wrath, and that God's wrath only occurs within the last year of the final week of years, and you have the correct order: sorrows, A of D, GT, the coming of the Lord, the gathering(one and only) and then wrath falls.

 

It's the same group. All will be resurrected and transformed at or near the same moment. Why is it that people must segregate? Baffling.

Well, it's a theory: it just does not fit the scriptures correctly understood. John saw the great crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, before he even started the 70th week! John shows us God's wrath begins (The day of the Lord begins) at the 6th seal, before the document or book has even been opened. Paul shows us that HIS rapture or gathering comes just a moment before that start of the DAY - so it will be a moment before the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal rapture. 

The church then will be in heaven for the entire 70th week and some little time after the week. You do understand, Rev. 19, showing His coming is AFTER chapter 16 that ends the week? 

There can be no doubt to the serious bible student that the trumpet judgments are part of the Day of the Lord, fulfilling just what the Old Testament said the DAY was all about. There can be no doubt, the trumpet judgments also come with God's wrath, being a part of the DAY. 

Then of course the church, having been raptured to heaven before the week, will be IN HEAVEN in chapter 19, and in heaven for the marriage and supper, that will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. 

See, when you take GOD'S order, there is no need to rearrange Revelation to fit some theory! It is already in HIS order.

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

You have to do a lot of rearranging to make your theory fit.

So what if the trumpet blasts came from the Talmud? Do you think Paul was ignorant of the different trumpet blasts that was common knowledge in his day? He knew EXACTLY what He was talking about. He has probably lived through 40 or 50 Feasts of trumpets by that time in his life.

Just to remind you once more: there will be TWO times the signs in the sun and moon come: 

First for the Day of the Lord the sign (Joel 2 and at the 6th seal) will be a darkened sun (eclipse?) and a blood moon (eclipse?).

For the sign for His coming, the sign is different: the moon will not be seen AT ALL, neither will the stars or the sun: John tells us it will be total darkness. 

Next, there will be TWO COMINGS: first He will come pretrib FOR His saints and He will not touch down, but remain in the clouds, then He will come after the days of GT AND after the week, WITH His Saints. He will touch down at this coming. NO ONE will know the day nor the hour for either one of these comings. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

John wrote to 7 churches? You mean the ones in Revelation? You are equating the Jewish church with the 7 churches from Revelation? 

Um...those 7 churches were in Asia. "To the seven churches in the province of Asia:" Rev 1:4. Turkey is where these churches began. Gentile churches.

And it's all the same Gospel. Paul did not preach a different Gospel than Jesus preached. 

You are only showing us that you don't know much of Paul's gospel. 

Galatians 2:

⁷ But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

⁸ (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

⁹ And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Many Christians began to flee Jerusalem and Israel BEFORE 70 AD. Many were dispersed into Asia. It is very likely that these were NOT Gentile churches, but churches for dispersed CHRISTIAN Jews. It seems John was the overseer of these churches. In any case, they disappeared. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by iamlamad