When do Revelations seals open

[Last Daze]

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Here is the part you missed: there is NO TIME after Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals. There is no 2000 years there: Jesus got the book and began opening the seals in 32 AD or thereabouts.  Seal one is the church sent out with the gospel.

Maybe I missed it, or maybe not.  The part I can't reconcile with your view is that the opening of the seals takes place after the seven letters to the seven churches.  How did the gospel get to Asia Minor and start those churches before the gospel went forth at the first seal?

[iamlamad]

55 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Maybe I missed it, or maybe not.  The part I can't reconcile with your view is that the opening of the seals takes place after the seven letters to the seven churches.  How did the gospel get to Asia Minor and start those churches before the gospel went forth at the first seal?

God chose to dictate the letters to the churches first. So we see that in chapters 2 & 3.  Then, God changed subjects. He wanted to introduce John to the book with the 7 seals. He did not want to start where they were in 95 AD  - which would have been at the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age. If God had started there, John would have been confused and would have wondered about the book and where it came from. God chose to show John the book from the time the Father had it, and then take us right through time, as the seals were opened and then finally as the book was opened. (The trumpets and every after are what is written inside the book.) 

There really IS no chronology from chapters 2 and 3 to chapter 4: God changed subjects.  Up until chapter 4, everything was in John's time, around 95 AD.  God had not really started into the mainline chronology of the book: the 7 seals, then the seven trumpets and then the seven vials. I can easily reconcile this. It is just the way God did it. 

Some people think the different churches take the reader to ages, and by the time the reader gets to the last church mentioned, the church age is over. I don't think so. I think God worded each message to speak to certain people from every church for every age. In other words, in any age, there is a church message that fits the reader. 

You did raise a good question.

Edited October 3, 2018 by iamlamad

[Gibbus]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

(Fresh Start ...................... Blasphemy against Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit)

1. Jesus not Seen (Rev. 4:8) = ALL SEALS OPENED! (Antichrist, Blindness)

2. Jesus Not Found (Rev. 4:11) = God is Never Silent with the Gospel!

3. Holy Spirit*Substitutes*Body of Jesus/Lamb Slain (Rev. 4:6) = Hell Fire Claims the Church, the "Saints/Prophets/Church is Dead" (rev. 11:2, saint malachy)

(Simplified?)

1. Faithful wait for the Promise of his Coming, (Jesus is Unseen)

2. God always blows the Trumpet, it is only the wicked that cannot hear his Voice

3. "Saints/Prophets/Church" are never removed from the Body of Christ/Lamb Slain

(We are Made in God's Image, and we are tried to be blameless before Jesus which is God, as a picture of the resurrection for the faithful ............... the unfaithful are .................. Antichrist/BLIND ... they are SILENT ... and they are the DEAD CHURCH)

(Fresh Start Version 1 - Review)

God never Goes beyond the Third SEAL/VIAL/TRUMPET, the Church never dies, to this effect, God only says the "THIRD" in Revelation.

(Fresh Start Version 2 = Review)

The Ark of the Covenant changed hands three times, and never went to Assyria/Babylon ................... if this is true and it is ..................... the PROPHECY of "Gog and Magog", that claims the Lord will come to "Assyria/Babylon" is only a reference to Gentile Sin and the Sin of the World in rejecting the Gospel ..................... God never cleanses the beyond the FIRST TEMPLE, because it was polluted by "Assyria/Babylon" ....................... the Lord Jesus in Revelation, an the Angels remain SILENT, THEY NEVER GO TO ASSYRIA/BABYLON!

 

(Based on Everything we can understand, Satan and the Gentiles and the World, Open all Seals ............... (Since God used the Ark of the Covenant, he illustrated the THIRD SEAL) ............................ God has opened no SEALS, and God has no intention of going to the 4th seal/ 4th vial / 4th trumpet, are both valid conclusions) (if god does not perform the work, the conclusion is meaningless..........."1260/42" Gentile Prophecies, are Meaningless .............. but we can observe Wow Signal! to Solstice Precessional Alignment to end of Daniel's week, for god's sake, that is a truth revealed within daniel's weeks, not an addition, not a supplementary)

 

(Saint John the Divine, God as a Levite/Angel, perhaps?  He was told to SEAL up the Vision/thunders, for the coming of the lord Jesus, now if God opened no seals, then we need to repent of the gentile sin, and the sin of this world and do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Edited October 3, 2018 by Gibbus

[Heb 13:8]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

He is there, He's always been there since the ascension.

You failed to make the connection in Rev 4:11 and the rapture verses in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5.

Focus on the names (Lord, Lamb, God).

 

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

He is there, He's always been there since the ascension.

You failed to make the connection in Rev 4:11 and the rapture verses in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5.

Focus on the names (Lord, Lamb, God).

 

OF COURSE HE is there now. But look here and tell us which verse is Jesus at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4:

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

⁵ And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

⁶ And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

⁷ And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

⁸ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:11 seems to have nothing to do with the rapture. Did I miss something?  Rev. 12 does show that he is caught up, but again, why was He NOT in the throne room in chapter 4: that is the question. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

Hi iamlamad,

1. In Rev. 4 we see the throne/authority of the glorified Lord Jesus given by the Father. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father `far above all` we know He was given all authority and power.....However the Father said for Him to sit at His right hand TILL His enemies are brought under His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1) This has yet to take place. From that place the Lord is interceding and building up His Body. He is operating in His High Priestly office.

Now we know that He also is a King, however it is not until His enemies are brought to His footstool, and the Father says, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!" that the Lord will then operate in His office as King.

Thus in Rev. 4 we see these two offices of the Lord, King (throne) and Priest, (gems stones of High Priest). We also see that it is the Father who undergirds this throne/authority. (Symbolic hand reaching out, as God is a Spirit).

2. Interesting observation. Jesus we see is not in heaven or on the earth or under the earth BUT is in the midst of the Godhead, as He is deity and that is beyond the created order.  

3. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent so is everywhere.

 

Marilyn.

 

[iamlamad]

27 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

1. In Rev. 4 we see the throne/authority of the glorified Lord Jesus given by the Father. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father `far above all` we know He was given all authority and power.....However the Father said for Him to sit at His right hand TILL His enemies are brought under His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1) This has yet to take place. From that place the Lord is interceding and building up His Body. He is operating in His High Priestly office.

Now we know that He also is a King, however it is not until His enemies are brought to His footstool, and the Father says, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!" that the Lord will then operate in His office as King.

Thus in Rev. 4 we see these two offices of the Lord, King (throne) and Priest, (gems stones of High Priest). We also see that it is the Father who undergirds this throne/authority. (Symbolic hand reaching out, as God is a Spirit).

2. Interesting observation. Jesus we see is not in heaven or on the earth or under the earth BUT is in the midst of the Godhead, as He is deity and that is beyond the created order.  

3. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent so is everywhere.

Marilyn.

It is amazing to me when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was not there, that you could see all this - FAR more than John saw. 

Actually, there was 32 years out of eternities past to eternities future, that Jesus was NOT in the throne room, but on the earth or under the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room during that time when Jesus was not there.

As for the Holy Spirit, of course He is everywhere, but God had to show SOMETHING for John to see, for the bible tells us the Holy Spirit was sent down and here we see from WHERE He was sent down. But the fact remains, He was still there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

[Marilyn C]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is amazing to me when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was not there, that you could see all this - FAR more than John saw. 

Actually, there was 32 years out of eternities past to eternities future, that Jesus was NOT in the throne room, but on the earth or under the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room during that time when Jesus was not there.

As for the Holy Spirit, of course He is everywhere, but God had to show SOMETHING for John to see, for the bible tells us the Holy Spirit was sent down and here we see from WHERE He was sent down. But the fact remains, He was still there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

Hi iamlamad,

God the Father`s whole purpose is `that in all things He (Christ) may have pre-eminence.` (Col. 1: 18)

It is the Lord Himself who made all `thrones and dominions ...` for Himself. (Col. 1: 16)

Thus the most important throne that is SET in heaven, in the created order is thus the throne/authority appointed and anointed by the Father for His only Son!

Marilyn.

[JoeCanada]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is amazing to me when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was not there, that you could see all this - FAR more than John saw. 

Actually, there was 32 years out of eternities past to eternities future, that Jesus was NOT in the throne room, but on the earth or under the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room during that time when Jesus was not there.

As for the Holy Spirit, of course He is everywhere, but God had to show SOMETHING for John to see, for the bible tells us the Holy Spirit was sent down and here we see from WHERE He was sent down. But the fact remains, He was still there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

Hi iamlamad....

When scripture says that no one was 'found'.....I don't think it means that a search was underway, like someone was lost.

It means that no-one was ....declared, confirmed, validated, deemed.  But I think you already know that.

Even if a search was underway, why wasn't Jesus found? If He was on the earth, He should have been easily located.

And what about the length of time it would take to search heaven and earth and under the earth (graves)?  

No, I just don't buy this argument. 

He's there in Rev 4:8.... " Holy Holy Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (It's Jesus who's coming...Rev 22:20)

He's there in Rev 4:11...."for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (John 1:3)

Rev 4:11.

 

[Heb 13:8]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Revelation 4:11 seems to have nothing to do with the rapture. Did I miss something?  Rev. 12 does show that he is caught up, but again, why was He NOT in the throne room in chapter 4: that is the question. 

Right, Rev 12:5 says we are caught up, and guess who we meet in the air in 1 Thess 4:17? Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev chapter 4 is describing the throne room in Rev 12:5. Iam, you're missing a big chunk here. Remember, Jesus remains in heaven until His Second Coming at the end of the 70th week, Rev 19:14. Where else would He be???

In Rev 4:11, the Greek actually says, "worthy are you the Lord and the God of us". The name Lord is given to Jesus, the name Abba Father is giving to God himself. When discussing the trinity you always say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three persons.