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JoeCanada

When do Revelations seals open

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6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,

Rev. 4

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

As I said, NO JESUS at the right hand of God. We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be, yet, He is not here. This is a CLUE. Can you follow clues? Another clue is the search for one worthy that ended in failure. Do you know what these clues mean?

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

iam, please tell me you can make the connection. if not we have a problem...

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

Rev 5:6-8 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Rev 5:12-13 In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Rev 6:1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

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42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

The whole purpose of the throne scene in Revelation 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb.  It uses a "before and after" comparison to do so.  Chapter 4 is the "before" scene.  It takes place before the Lamb overcame the world.  There's really no other possibility since the victorious Lamb wasn't found during the search. 

There are two possibilities as to why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4.  Either He was still the Word before He became flesh and is pictured with the Spirit as seven lamps (thy Word is a lamp unto my feet), or He became flesh and was on earth at the point in time depicted by Chapter 4 but had not yet overcome sin and death in order to establish His worthiness.  I see either as legitimate views.

Again, the whole purpose of Chapters 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to be given dominion over the earth, a dominion that starts to unfold with the opening of the seals.

  • And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  Rev 5:2
  • And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5
  • And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Rev 5:9
  • Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”  Rev 5:12

Establishing the worthiness of the Lamb is the central theme of the throne room scene.  Simply stated: before Jesus overcame sin and death, there was no one found anywhere who was worthy to open the book.  After He overcame, He was found worthy to open the seals.  That is the only chronological takeaway from the throne room scene of Rev 4 and 5.  And as others have stated, the opening of the seals takes place after the time of the Gentile churches.

The throne room scene focuses on the most monumental and significant event in the history of the world, Jesus' death and resurrection.  The 24 elders sang a new song because something had changed.  Jesus overcame sin and death and purchased for God people of every tribe and tongue and people and nation with His blood.  They didn't sing that song in Chapter 4.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The whole purpose of the throne scene in Revelation 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb.  It uses a "before and after" comparison to do so.  Chapter 4 is the "before" scene.  It takes place before the Lamb overcame the world.  There's really no other possibility since the victorious Lamb wasn't found during the search. 

There are two possibilities as to why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4.  Either He was still the Word before He became flesh and is pictured with the Spirit as seven lamps (thy Word is a lamp unto my feet), or He became flesh and was on earth at the point in time depicted by Chapter 4 but had not yet overcome sin and death in order to establish His worthiness.  I see either as legitimate views.

Again, the whole purpose of Chapters 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to be given dominion over the earth, a dominion that starts to unfold with the opening of the seals.

  • And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  Rev 5:2
  • And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5
  • And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Rev 5:9
  • Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”  Rev 5:12

Establishing the worthiness of the Lamb is the central theme of the throne room scene.  Simply stated: before Jesus overcame sin and death, there was no one found anywhere who was worthy to open the book.  After He overcame, He was found worthy to open the seals.  That is the only chronological takeaway from the throne room scene of Rev 4 and 5.  And as others have stated, the opening of the seals takes place after the time of the Gentile churches.

The throne room scene focuses on the most monumental and significant event in the history of the world, Jesus' death and resurrection.  The 24 elders sang a new song because something had changed.  Jesus overcame sin and death and purchased for God people of every tribe and tongue and people and nation with His blood.  They didn't sing that song in Chapter 4.

I think you have it: Jesus was not in the throne room in chapter 4 because He was on earth: He had not yet risen from the dead and had not yet ascended.

That also explains why the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent down: Jesus had not yet ascended. 

The reason Jesus was not found worthy in the first search was just as you said, He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer of Mankind. But as soon as He arose from the dead, He WAS found worthy, as seen in chapter 5. Then shortly after that, Jesus ascended back into heaven and into the throne room, and John got to see that moment in the vision. 

Here is the part you missed: there is NO TIME after Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals. There is no 2000 years there: Jesus got the book and began opening the seals in 32 AD or thereabouts.  Seal one is the church sent out with the gospel.

I will add this: you are the first person to answer these questions correctly. I congratulate you on that.

Edited by iamlamad

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28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Here is the part you missed: there is NO TIME after Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals. There is no 2000 years there: Jesus got the book and began opening the seals in 32 AD or thereabouts.  Seal one is the church sent out with the gospel.

Maybe I missed it, or maybe not.  The part I can't reconcile with your view is that the opening of the seals takes place after the seven letters to the seven churches.  How did the gospel get to Asia Minor and start those churches before the gospel went forth at the first seal?

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Maybe I missed it, or maybe not.  The part I can't reconcile with your view is that the opening of the seals takes place after the seven letters to the seven churches.  How did the gospel get to Asia Minor and start those churches before the gospel went forth at the first seal?

God chose to dictate the letters to the churches first. So we see that in chapters 2 & 3.  Then, God changed subjects. He wanted to introduce John to the book with the 7 seals. He did not want to start where they were in 95 AD  - which would have been at the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age. If God had started there, John would have been confused and would have wondered about the book and where it came from. God chose to show John the book from the time the Father had it, and then take us right through time, as the seals were opened and then finally as the book was opened. (The trumpets and every after are what is written inside the book.) 

There really IS no chronology from chapters 2 and 3 to chapter 4: God changed subjects.  Up until chapter 4, everything was in John's time, around 95 AD.  God had not really started into the mainline chronology of the book: the 7 seals, then the seven trumpets and then the seven vials. I can easily reconcile this. It is just the way God did it. 

Some people think the different churches take the reader to ages, and by the time the reader gets to the last church mentioned, the church age is over. I don't think so. I think God worded each message to speak to certain people from every church for every age. In other words, in any age, there is a church message that fits the reader. 

You did raise a good question.

Edited by iamlamad

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

(Fresh Start ...................... Blasphemy against Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit)

1. Jesus not Seen (Rev. 4:8) = ALL SEALS OPENED! (Antichrist, Blindness)

2. Jesus Not Found (Rev. 4:11) = God is Never Silent with the Gospel!

3. Holy Spirit*Substitutes*Body of Jesus/Lamb Slain (Rev. 4:6) = Hell Fire Claims the Church, the "Saints/Prophets/Church is Dead" (rev. 11:2, saint malachy)

(Simplified?)

1. Faithful wait for the Promise of his Coming, (Jesus is Unseen)

2. God always blows the Trumpet, it is only the wicked that cannot hear his Voice

3. "Saints/Prophets/Church" are never removed from the Body of Christ/Lamb Slain

(We are Made in God's Image, and we are tried to be blameless before Jesus which is God, as a picture of the resurrection for the faithful ............... the unfaithful are .................. Antichrist/BLIND ... they are SILENT ... and they are the DEAD CHURCH)

(Fresh Start Version 1 - Review)

God never Goes beyond the Third SEAL/VIAL/TRUMPET, the Church never dies, to this effect, God only says the "THIRD" in Revelation.

(Fresh Start Version 2 = Review)

The Ark of the Covenant changed hands three times, and never went to Assyria/Babylon ................... if this is true and it is ..................... the PROPHECY of "Gog and Magog", that claims the Lord will come to "Assyria/Babylon" is only a reference to Gentile Sin and the Sin of the World in rejecting the Gospel ..................... God never cleanses the beyond the FIRST TEMPLE, because it was polluted by "Assyria/Babylon" ....................... the Lord Jesus in Revelation, an the Angels remain SILENT, THEY NEVER GO TO ASSYRIA/BABYLON!

 

(Based on Everything we can understand, Satan and the Gentiles and the World, Open all Seals ............... (Since God used the Ark of the Covenant, he illustrated the THIRD SEAL) ............................ God has opened no SEALS, and God has no intention of going to the 4th seal/ 4th vial / 4th trumpet, are both valid conclusions) (if god does not perform the work, the conclusion is meaningless..........."1260/42" Gentile Prophecies, are Meaningless .............. but we can observe Wow Signal! to Solstice Precessional Alignment to end of Daniel's week, for god's sake, that is a truth revealed within daniel's weeks, not an addition, not a supplementary)

 

(Saint John the Divine, God as a Levite/Angel, perhaps?  He was told to SEAL up the Vision/thunders, for the coming of the lord Jesus, now if God opened no seals, then we need to repent of the gentile sin, and the sin of this world and do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Edited by Gibbus

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

He is there, He's always been there since the ascension.

You failed to make the connection in Rev 4:11 and the rapture verses in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5.

Focus on the names (Lord, Lamb, God).

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

He is there, He's always been there since the ascension.

You failed to make the connection in Rev 4:11 and the rapture verses in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5.

Focus on the names (Lord, Lamb, God).

 

OF COURSE HE is there now. But look here and tell us which verse is Jesus at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4:

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:11 seems to have nothing to do with the rapture. Did I miss something?  Rev. 12 does show that he is caught up, but again, why was He NOT in the throne room in chapter 4: that is the question. 

Edited by iamlamad

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

Hi iamlamad,

1. In Rev. 4 we see the throne/authority of the glorified Lord Jesus given by the Father. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father `far above all` we know He was given all authority and power.....However the Father said for Him to sit at His right hand TILL His enemies are brought under His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1) This has yet to take place. From that place the Lord is interceding and building up His Body. He is operating in His High Priestly office.

Now we know that He also is a King, however it is not until His enemies are brought to His footstool, and the Father says, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!" that the Lord will then operate in His office as King.

Thus in Rev. 4 we see these two offices of the Lord, King (throne) and Priest, (gems stones of High Priest). We also see that it is the Father who undergirds this throne/authority. (Symbolic hand reaching out, as God is a Spirit).

2. Interesting observation. Jesus we see is not in heaven or on the earth or under the earth BUT is in the midst of the Godhead, as He is deity and that is beyond the created order.  

3. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent so is everywhere.

 

Marilyn.

 

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