PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Zemke]

13 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Okay, yes, I think I can see what you are saying with those things, I've been thinking about it but need more time to test and digest it.....where it says in 2 Peter about the "elements" being burned up and in Galations about not going back to the weak and beggardly "elements"...the new heavens and new earth being a completely new paradigm of the new covenant.......BUT, and it's an important but......we have to remember that when people are speaking/writing in spirit there is often more than one level to what the Lord is saying.  We need to be hearing the word of God in "stereo" with the ears and mind of Christ.  Gods voice can be like many waters at a time, it's not usually just the trickle of one little creek, if at all. 

There is an important biblical principle of "the spiritual does not come first but the natural, then after that the spiritual".  (1 Cor. 15:46)  Which is a key to apprehending a lot of scripture.  I think we can even see in those verses in 1 Cor. 15 about the old earthy man and the new spiritual man a hint about the old and new covenants.  God's word is so perfect and harmonious, and we don't know the half of it, only glimpse it here and there.  The things to do with Israel belong to the natural realm, the old covenant, the feasts, etc....but which speak of the better - spiritual - things to come.  Israel was the natural ensample/similitude/living parable of the spiritual things to do with the church.  Those passages that the apostles wrote were fulfilled in the natural realm, concerning Israel, but still not all fulfilled in the spiritual realm concerning the church.  We do not yet see all things put under His feet, even now after the destruction of the Temple.....we still only have the earnest of the Spirit.....the times of the Gentiles have not yet been wrapped up and nor have we yet seen the fullness of the Gentiles and the blinders removed from Israel.  So yes, I think I can agree that we could say the wrath of God was fulfilled in the destruction of the physical Temple in Jerusalem...that was the natural fulfillment in the natural realm.....so ALSO we still await the spiritual fulfillment....judgment beginning with His spiritual house, the church who follows the same ensample as Israel of old.  And "soon" to God can also mean a very long time.....just as Peter was saying one day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day.  Take all the time you need to think about these things....not sure if I'm explaining it very well, but hope it will make sense to you. 

I often find on forums we can be arguing one truth against another, when actually both are true or have an element of truth...this might be what is happening here, at least to some extent, and maybe we both need to tweek our understanding a bit to hit the mark of what all those scriptures are saying.

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The context of the passages using the term element or elementary is what's important. Paul is obviously referring to the elementary principles of the law while Peter is obviously referring to the elements or elementary makeup of the physical earth. It's just a Greek word meaning the elements of, or first in a row, from two Greek words. strongs 4747. The first principles of matter in 2Peter 3 and the elemental things of the law speaking of bondage in Galatians 4:9 but also in the same chapter in Pauls analogy he uses the term speaking of the elementary principles of this world, vs3, in the sense of being children under a form of parental bondage, but in Hebrews we have the same term used figuratively in referring to the first principles of the Christian doctrine.

Hebrews 5:12. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again that someone teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Of course, that can be twisted to speak of basic law I suppose.

Something we all have been guilty of, maybe all, is redefining or interpreting a passage by the definition of a word gained by the context of a different subject matter and applying it to other scripture in effect changing the context to fit the word. Paul dealing with the Galatians and the use of the law and Peter speaking of the flood and earthly destruction. 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by Zemke

[Larry H]

7 hours ago, George said:

In this particular passage, this is an individual who was bound by the devil -- the devil is the strongman, within a person who needed to be cast out.  This passage has nothing to do with the passage in Revelation.

Rev 20:1  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 
Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 

The problem is that preterists do not believe a great many things that are VERY OBSERVABLE from the naked eye.

1st -- Since Preterists believe that we're in the Kingdom now, they are not looking toward a 1000-year reign of Jesus.  They believe we're in the Kingdom now ... which is only partially true as you can OBSERVE with the human eye why this is absurd.

2nd -- the fact that the DEVIL is not bound and is running about like a roaring lion shows that we're not in the millennial kingdom.

3rd -- Preterists also cannot observe the simple reality that a STATE of ISRAEL exists today in fulfillment of prophecy.  Just a simple understanding ... if God is in control -- and God allowed the State of Israel to be created .. then God has a plan.  This simple observable fact -- should make every preterist re-examine his understanding of the last days.

Perhaps, just looking around ... seeing what you can see with your very eyes ... that observable events in our generation makes easy to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Preterists believe it was all fulfilled in 70 A.D. but Scripture clearly tells us -- 

Dan 12:4  But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Just read the Scriptures in light of events taking place, and you'll find that the book is actually being unsealed completely in our generation!

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

Quote

Perhaps, just looking around ... seeing what you can see with your very eyes ... that observable events in our generation makes easy to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Hi George ..... If Satan is the god of this world, it  could be deceiving to look around what is going on. This I call the New paper Gospel, because one reads an article then open the bible looking for a scripture to fit the event. That has lead popular leaders in the Christian faith to preach a no show of Christ. Leading millions to a false prediction. That is one great stumbling block of the Christian faith, and it supplies the atheist with ammunition to shoot back at us. How many have lost their faith because of it. The futurist theology is responsible for those poor suffering souls who bought into it. And what they might have given up because of same.  

To see the list of false prediction of the coming of Christ, and the millennium check out this link. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ

Deuteronomy 18:19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." 

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 

22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. 

Its a good thing these guy, who take this lightly, were not living in Old Testament times must be put to death." 

I will respond to the other statement, concerning Daniel chapter 12 later on. 

Blessing my brother 

Larry
 

 

[George]

15 minutes ago, Larry H said:

That has lead popular leaders in the Christian faith to preach a no show of Christ. Leading millions to a false prediction. That is one great stumbling block of the Christian faith, and it supplies the atheist with ammunition to shoot back at us. How many have lost their faith because of it.

Nobody is predicting the day or the hour the Lord is returning.   But the fact is ... that a simple observation will clearly show my previous points as accurate.  Satan is not bound ... and he's running around, like a lion seeking whom he may devour!   So clearly we are not in the Kingdom of peace promised --YET!  But it is coming! 

[Larry H]

2 hours ago, George said:

Nobody is predicting the day or the hour the Lord is returning.   But the fact is ... that a simple observation will clearly show my previous points as accurate.  Satan is not bound ... and he's running around, like a lion seeking whom he may devour!   So clearly we are not in the Kingdom of peace promised --YET!  But it is coming! 

Hi George ..... You have not as yet given a cross reference that  will provide the evidence of your take on Revelation 20, does it stand alone. Do you see any symbolism, which you call spiritualizing in the reference? 

The word angel in Revelation 20 in Greek is aggelos meaning messenger. This messenger is the one who came down to bind Satan. Up front I am not suggesting that Christ is an angel. He is the Christ the Messenger of the Covenant.  He is the only one with the power and authority to bind Satan. The key and the chain represent something in this very symbolic book of Revelation. Because a literal chain and Key cannot bind Satan a spirit creature. Can we agree on this so far?? 

Symbolism:

Keys = Right, Authority, Ability
Chain = Power, Means to Restrain
Bottomless Pit = Boundless Void, an Abyss without form  

Do you see it this way. If not what's your take on it.

By the way this is not a preterist concept.

[Larry H]

12 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Larry with regards to ecumincal unity that is occurring  , I have one word for it .    FLEE,        and never look back.

its all a sham just sold in different ways to get us all connected , but connected NOT IN CHRIST .    but man its sung by a piper

that knows how to reach any denomination and make it all seem well .    IT AINT .   

Unity IN TRUTH alone and with those who love TRUTH above all , Christ above all, and wont sacrifice any truth is all we need .

Its no accident that unity has become the focus of these days in many different faiths and even among the religions .  Satan is preparing

the mindset for the worship as ONE of the beast .  And is also fast preparing the system too .

Let me give you some key words to look out for .    Building bridges .    beating spears into plowshares .  

You hear of any talking about just going out and making friends type of evangelism ,   focusing on events or etc as to where we can find common unity .  RUN .

Truth is , this is just about everywhere now .    While some are not as far along in the deception of it ,  many are already infected with it to some form or degree.

And most don't even know it .  cause truth is , its sold under the guise of love .   Which if we had any kind of discernment , we would realize

any love that puts the TRUTH NOT above all,  Christ first above all,  WELL that just aint no love , just sensual , but it works .   Not on the lambs it don't .

cause they can whiff , by grace , that stink pile and anything , anything contrary to JESUS ,   when they whiff it will cause an automatic gag reflex .  

For me I am not seeded in a any comfort zone  because study of the scriptures is very important to me. As I am sure with you. "The Nicene Creed, also called the Nicene Constantinopolitan Creed, is a statement of  the orthodox faith of the early Christian Church"  If all these church get together they will have great power in the world. And I believe not for the good of  our Gospel message as you indicated.

Kind Regards

Larry

[FresnoJoe]

2 minutes ago, Larry H said:

For me I am not seeded in a any comfort zone  because study of the scriptures is very important to me....
As I am sure with you. "The Nicene Creed, also called the Nicene Constantinopolitan Creed....
is a statement of  the orthodox faith of the early Christian Church....

If all these church get together they will have great power in the world.....
And I believe not for the good of  our Gospel message.....

Amen Dear Larry, Amen; Nobody Alive On

Idols will completely disappear. When the Lord rises to shake the earth, his enemies will crawl into holes in the ground. They will hide in caves in the rocks from the terror of the Lord and the glory of his majesty.

On that day of judgment they will abandon the gold and silver idols they made for themselves to worship. They will leave their gods to the rodents and bats, while they crawl away into caverns and hide among the jagged rocks in the cliffs. Isaiah 2:18-20 (New Living Translation)

Planet Earth Could Miss The

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Revelation 6:12-17 (New International Version)

Return Of Jesus

For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:27 (Berean Study Bible)

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Larry H]

14 hours ago, George said:

Nobody is predicting the day or the hour the Lord is returning.   But the fact is ... that a simple observation will clearly show my previous points as accurate.  Satan is not bound ... and he's running around, like a lion seeking whom he may devour!   So clearly we are not in the Kingdom of peace promised --YET!  But it is coming! 

Hey my brother George ... I on no account meant to put forward someone in this forum is predicting a date for the second coming in our future. Only what is called observable signs in the News of that prediction and the realization of a near coming. I.e." look around".

 Also when speaking of the binding of Satan, and the second coming, I  presented two view in the case of Satan, he is bound or not bound, and the consequences of that dogma. For me this is just a learning process of scripture. There is no question Satan was looking for someone to devour in the first century. As for Satan running around today, there are quite a number of view suggesting that. As you know I will be presenting one of them in the last post, and sees where it goes. What's going on. 

The key verse in the scriptural scenario was, " if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Matthew 12:28

To me these verse confirm that the kingdom of God, and the second coming, was a first century event.

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

 

[George]

16 minutes ago, Larry H said:

The key verse in the scriptural scenario was, " if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Matthew 12:28

To me these verse confirm that the kingdom of God, and the second coming, was a first century event.

To those who are saved ... the kingdom process has begun ... as soon as you were born again ... but this is not the Kingdom age as of yet.  You can clearly see, that we're nowhere near peace and tranquility.  To say, that you can't observe these facts, it's blindness to a doctrine, instead of what is clearly seen in the world. 

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Larry H said:

The key verse in the scriptural scenario was, " if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Matthew 12:28

To me these verse confirm that the kingdom of God, and the second coming, was a first century event.

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

The kingdom WAS at hand -- and the Jews rejected it, when they "rejected" their king. Can't have a kingdom without a king.

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed...

Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

[Heleadethme]

6 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hey my brother George ... I on no account meant to put forward someone in this forum is predicting a date for the second coming in our future. Only what is called observable signs in the News of that prediction and the realization of a near coming. I.e." look around".

 Also when speaking of the binding of Satan, and the second coming, I  presented two view in the case of Satan, he is bound or not bound, and the consequences of that dogma. For me this is just a learning process of scripture. There is no question Satan was looking for someone to devour in the first century. As for Satan running around today, there are quite a number of view suggesting that. As you know I will be presenting one of them in the last post, and sees where it goes. What's going on. 

The key verse in the scriptural scenario was, " if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Matthew 12:28

To me these verse confirm that the kingdom of God, and the second coming, was a first century event.

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

 

All these had to do with His first coming, that is true...........but will be fulfilled again with His second coming.  First it was to Israel (ensample to the church), second time to the church.  The harvest in the end of the age.....first a separation of sheep and goats and a separation of wheat and tares took place in the first century at the end of the age of the Jews....AND this will all be fulfilled a second time in the end of the age of the Gentiles.  First the natural, then the spiritual.  First the earnest of the Spirit, then the fullness.  The gospel to the Jew first, then the Gentile.  There is nothing new under the sun, and what has been will be again.  That seems to wrap it up quite neatly, thanks be to God.