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Spock

Mid Trib rapture anyone?

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5 hours ago, Spock said:

 

Greetings Pup,

if you don’t mind, could you give me a point by point analysis of the points I’m making to support this theory.  I would like to know where you think it is faulty and thus not thenwill of God. Thanks.

 

On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

3. I presently believe the 6th seal is released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed, but I’m not closed to still studying other thoughts. In particular the MID TRIB RAPTURE PERSPECTIVE. 

4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...right after 6th seal.

7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first (two witnesses come in first half of the week before DOTL); Malachi 4

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

Let me give you a brief synopsis of things.   All of the answers are found in the bible.   God has "organized" it for the purpose of manifesting our faith in him and his word.   Our faith comes from believing what is written therein is true rather than what we believe it says is true.  It may seem like i said the same thing but I didn't.   Faith is believing God's word is true EVEN when we don't understand it.   The problem is when we think that our opinions are correct.  Another stumbling block that impedes our understanding is (somewhat) faulty definitions that are based on an incomplete understanding of things.   We try to fit things according to our current understanding of things rather than vice versa.  My understanding is built on thousands of scriptures.   One of the most important factors in our understanding is connecting the O.T. with the NEW. 

One of the building blocks to understanding bible prophecy is found in the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.  Some choose to ignore it, and many base concrete foundations on a historical timeline of events that are virtually unverifiable.  The destruction of the temple and the crucifixion of Christ are in themselves well documented events of history.   But in between those 2 events we have very little to accurately assess the timeline of events.  A simple look at a Jewish "biblical" chronology, upon which today's current year of 5779 is based, deviates considerably from Christian apologetics of 6000+years [2019 AD + 4004 BC].  Enough said about prophetic problems.   Let me begin by a synoptic assessment of the book of revelation.   If you have taken the time to read some of my recent posts,  many details are found there.

Paul's understanding of things, both doctrinal and prophetically,  are far greater than he is given credit for, even though everything that he wrote was written before John penned the Revelation.   The one thing that is most misunderstood is roles of Jews AND Gentiles in endtime events.   Paul, as a Jew, got his understanding from what we would label as old testament literature.  This probably included some writings that became corrupted or lost,  and are no longer used.   One of those things that Paul understood, with all relativity, is that judgment,  in the form of God's wrath,  would begin with the Jewish nation and people.   [See Romans 1 & 2 for his exposition on the wrath of God,  to the Jew FIRST,  and to the Greek/ Gentile. ]

The seals and trumpets [Rev 6 thru 11] are the judgments upon Jerusalem and Israel,  the people and the land.   Whereas,  Rev 12 begins the "day of revelation and wrath of God(Romans 2:6-10)" upon the rest of the world.   The seals can be traced directly back to Eze 5,9 & 14, et al.  The 7 spirits (to the 7 churches) and the trumpets and the 2 witnesses and the 2/3 that perish can be traced back to Zechariah (&Ezekiel).

Even though there is a final 7 years to the endtimes,  the book of revelation (chapter 6 thru 19) only covers the events starting with the GT that begins in the middle of the week,  covering only the last 3.5 years.   When (and I am sure that you don't,  yet) you understand that statement,  you can understand why the AoD is not mentioned there.   A primary simple statement of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is the AoD is seen BEFORE the GT begins.   It is totally irrelevant and invalid to the events that follow.   Daniel 12 is almost universally misunderstood and misapplied to the book of revelation.   Probably the greatest key to correctly understanding events [mine actually had its origins in Daniel 12] for those of today should probably begin in Daniel 7 and the 4th beast from the earth.   But it is of foremost importance to recognize the priority of events begins with judgment upon Jerusalem and the 7 seals.   The timing of the rapture will find its proper place,  ONLY AFTER these other events are understood.   It is given an inordinate (incorrect) priority in the understanding of the workings and  plans of God.   Human nature,  the fear of God,  necessitates building theological understanding AROUND the timing of the rapture,  rather than letting theological understanding establish its timing.   Pre-trib theology cultivates a mindset of serving God out of fear,  rather than out of love.   Live right or you might get left behind.   Sad to say it,  but that is Satan's basis for a works oriented salvation.   We should serve God because we know that he loved us first and we now love him for that immeasurable grace,  rather than in hope of being saved.   In simpler terms,  I serve him because I know that I am saved,  and not in the hope of being saved.  From this discussion,  what specific point do you want me to elaborate on,  with scriptures? 

Blessings

The PuP 

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3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Let me give you a brief synopsis of things.   All of the answers are found in the bible.   God has "organized" it for the purpose of manifesting our faith in him and his word.   Our faith comes from believing what is written therein is true rather than what we believe it says is true.  It may seem like i said the same thing but I didn't.   Faith is believing God's word is true EVEN when we don't understand it.   The problem is when we think that our opinions are correct.  Another stumbling block that impedes our understanding is (somewhat) faulty definitions that are based on an incomplete understanding of things.   We try to fit things according to our current understanding of things rather than vice versa.  My understanding is built on thousands of scriptures.   One of the most important factors in our understanding is connecting the O.T. with the NEW. 

One of the building blocks to understanding bible prophecy is found in the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.  Some choose to ignore it, and many base concrete foundations on a historical timeline of events that are virtually unverifiable.  The destruction of the temple and the crucifixion of Christ are in themselves well documented events of history.   But in between those 2 events we have very little to accurately assess the timeline of events.  A simple look at a Jewish "biblical" chronology, upon which today's current year of 5779 is based, deviates considerably from Christian apologetics of 6000+years [2019 AD + 4004 BC].  Enough said about prophetic problems.   Let me begin by a synoptic assessment of the book of revelation.   If you have taken the time to read some of my recent posts,  many details are found there.

Paul's understanding of things, both doctrinal and prophetically,  are far greater than he is given credit for, even though everything that he wrote was written before John penned the Revelation.   The one thing that is most misunderstood is roles of Jews AND Gentiles in endtime events.   Paul, as a Jew, got his understanding from what we would label as old testament literature.  This probably included some writings that became corrupted or lost,  and are no longer used.   One of those things that Paul understood, with all relativity, is that judgment,  in the form of God's wrath,  would begin with the Jewish nation and people.   [See Romans 1 & 2 for his exposition on the wrath of God,  to the Jew FIRST,  and to the Greek/ Gentile. ]

The seals and trumpets [Rev 6 thru 11] are the judgments upon Jerusalem and Israel,  the people and the land.   Whereas,  Rev 12 begins the "day of revelation and wrath of God(Romans 2:6-10)" upon the rest of the world.   The seals can be traced directly back to Eze 5,9 & 14, et al.  The 7 spirits (to the 7 churches) and the trumpets and the 2 witnesses and the 2/3 that perish can be traced back to Zechariah (&Ezekiel).

Even though there is a final 7 years to the endtimes,  the book of revelation (chapter 6 thru 19) only covers the events starting with the GT that begins in the middle of the week,  covering only the last 3.5 years.   When (and I am sure that you don't,  yet) you understand that statement,  you can understand why the AoD is not mentioned there.   A primary simple statement of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse is the AoD is seen BEFORE the GT begins.   It is totally irrelevant and invalid to the events that follow.   Daniel 12 is almost universally misunderstood and misapplied to the book of revelation.   Probably the greatest key to correctly understanding events [mine actually had its origins in Daniel 12] for those of today should probably begin in Daniel 7 and the 4th beast from the earth.   But it is of foremost importance to recognize the priority of events begins with judgment upon Jerusalem and the 7 seals.   The timing of the rapture will find its proper place,  ONLY AFTER these other events are understood.   It is given an inordinate (incorrect) priority in the understanding of the workings and  plans of God.   Human nature,  the fear of God,  necessitates building theological understanding AROUND the timing of the rapture,  rather than letting theological understanding establish its timing.   Pre-trib theology cultivates a mindset of serving God out of fear,  rather than out of love.   Live right or you might get left behind.   Sad to say it,  but that is Satan's basis for a works oriented salvation.   We should serve God because we know that he loved us first and we now love him for that immeasurable grace,  rather than in hope of being saved.   In simpler terms,  I serve him because I know that I am saved,  and not in the hope of being saved.  From this discussion,  what specific point do you want me to elaborate on,  with scriptures? 

Blessings

The PuP 

Wow......that was different!  

Thanks for responding. I will read you other thread to get a fuller understanding of what you just said here, but know this, your message is pretty clear enough, even though you didn’t mention anything about the timing of the rapture except that we shouldn’t be concerned with it. 

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On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 2:26 AM, Spock said:

 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

Hi Spock,

Great to discuss with you again. Now when I flew small planes I was taught the 1 in 60 rule. If you are off course 1degree then in 60 miles you will be off course 60 miles. And that is a long, long way off. So it is important to find that spot in our thinking that has led us off. Thus I will address the `Day of the Lord,` for this is what I see has led you into some confusion.

 

Day - Gk. `hemera,` time, a day, (24 hours) & a period of time.

 

The Apostle Peter gives the extent of the time period.

 

`But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.` (2 Peter 3: 10)

 

Thus we see the beginning of the Day of the Lord time period is when it comes as a thief, and the end will be when everything is dissolved. (at the end of the millennium)

 

`For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say, “Peace and Safety!” then suddenly destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman.` (1 Thess. 4: 2 & 3)

 

The Apostle Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord, like a thief, comes upon the unsuspecting world, while they are saying, “Peace and Safety!” Then Paul gives more detail in his next letter, (2 Thess. 2) - the A/C revealed, the falling away, the abomination etc. Quite a few events in the Day of the Lord time period, during the trib. part.

 

The Apostle John gives the time of the specific Day of the Lord.

 

`I looked when he opened the sixth seal, there was a great earth quake and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

 

 And kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great Day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand?”` (Rev 6: 12 - 17)

 

Such cataclysmic events, before the Lord bursts out in power and great glory to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious nations.

 

Thus we can see that there is a specific Day of the Lord, as well as a time period called the Day of the Lord in which many events have to occur.

 

Day of the Lord time period starts when people are saying “Peace and Safety!” And then many events follow.

Day of the Lord, specific Day, is when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

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On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

1.) They have not ridden but that's not really your main emphasis here it seems, you don't seem to understand when the Seals are opened in relation to the 70th week, and without knowing that you really can't understand what the Seals represent. The 70th week starts, but the rapture in my opinion starts before the 70th week, the Church Age was inserted, the 70th week judgment was put off, God forsook Israel and gave the mantle of taking His Gospel unto the world unto the Gentiles, Romans chapter 11 says the Jews are blinded until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So it all jibes with the Church being taken to Heaven, she after all is the Bride of Christ and the Jewish Marriage Custom is to build a room for the bride in the fathers {Fathers} house. They abide in the wedding chambers for 7 days {7 years}. 

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36).

So the 70th week starts and as Daniel 9:27 shows us, there is a 7 year Covenant or Agreement made"Peace Agreement" {Covenant means Agreement} between the Anti-Christ, Israel and MANY [Nations] in the Region. Then in the Middle of the Week {3.5 years} he reneges on the Agreements. He has to become a Beast over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region like all the other Beasts. There are 7 year Agreements in place between the E.U. and Israel and THE MANY as we speak, it's called the European Neighborhood Policy.

The European Neighborhood Policy governs the EU's relations with 16 of the its closest Eastern and Southern Neighbors. To the South: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestine*, Syria** and Tunisia, and to the east......................

The European Neighbourhood Instrument

From the ENPI to the ENI

Starting from 2014, the European Neighborhood Instrument (ENI) has replaced the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument (ENPI 2006-2013). The ENI will run until 2020 providing the framework and bulk of funding for the relations between the European Union (EU) and Partner Countries under the renewed European Neighborhood Policy (ENP).  {Notice the 7 year cycles}

So the MANY in Dan. 8:25 that are destroyed BY PEACE, and the MANY that this Anti-Christ makes an Agreement with in Dan. 9:27, are THE MANY Nations he conquers in Dan. 11:40-43. This includes Israel, but he's not able to Conquer what is now Jordan, that is where Israel will Flee for 1260 days.

Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north {Anti-Christ} shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.{Jordan} 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So who are THE MANY that the Anti-Christ reneges on his Peace Agreement with ? Well it is Israel, all of North Africa, and the Nations around the Mediterranean Sea Region, which is why he is a Beast that comes out of the Mediterranean Sea, which means the Little Horn/Anti-Christ's FOOTPRINT will look exactly like the Old Roman Empire. It will be the E.U. and THE MANY that he Conquers, all of North Africa, Israel, Lebanon, Syria etc. 

So in th Middle of the week, the 70th week, the Seals are opened by Jesus, the Wrath of God is allowed to go forth on Mankind. So the Seals begin, of course, in the Middle of the week. Thus there is 3.5 years of God's Wrath to come, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. 

This portion needed to be very detailed, thus longer. I will answer the rest in another post. 

 

 

 

Edited by Revelation Man

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On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

 3. I presently believe the 6th seal is released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed, but I’m not closed to still studying other thoughts. In particular the MID TRIB RAPTURE PERSPECTIVE. 

 4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

The 6th Seal therefore comes just after the Midway point of the 70th Week. On a 3.5 year scale, we could say, well the 6th Seal is almost a 1/3 of the way to the end, but that is not the way the Seals, Trumpets and Vials work. The First Four Seals are God showing us what the Anti-Christ's actions are going to bring during his 42 Months reign, and Seal #5 is showing us the deaths of the Martys at his hand. Thus the 6th Seal can be opened quickly after the First Four Seals, because they are mostly pronouncements of what is coming at the hands of the Beast !! Thus the 6th Seal is basically going to happen at the 1260 Mark  but just a bit later, so a few days or weeks later we get the 6th Seal. That is why I think the 6th Seal is the ANNOUNCEMENT by God that Wrath has come upon the World, it's a Sign from God, but the Wrath actually starts with the First Seal of course, it's all the Lamb's Wrath.

The Sun and Moon turns dark, but the "STARS FALLING" like "UNTIMELY FIGS" I see as Satan being cast out of Heaven. Then we Get Israel {144,000} who are Fleeing Judea and God tells his Angel in Rev. 7, HOLD UP.........Hurt not the Earth, Trees nor the Sea until I have Sealed the 144,000, then He names the 12 Tribes. So what does this really mean ? I think it means that the 144,000 are the Fleeing Jews, God tells the Angels to not hurt the earth/trees and seas until they are SEALED {Which means they make it to the Petra/Bozrah area} in their Foreheads. Then the 7th Seal is opened, which brings forth the 7 Trumpet Judgments on Mankind.

On 2/17/2019 at 3:00 PM, Da Puppers said:

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

 

The problem I had 5 years ago was I was called to Prophecy, but I felt like after 25ish years I was stuck in the mud and asked God why !! The Holy Spirit was like, Ron, I can't teach you because you heed Men's Traditions, when you got saved you read the Gospel and I taught you, now you see what "50 men say" about Babylon and each has a different opinion, but you are not listening to me, I will tell you the right answer, but only if you put off Men's Traditions can you hear My voice.

So I was like, wow, this is too cool. The very first thing I tackled was the Rapture, I was Pe Trib but willing to hear the facts for myself now via the scriptures POV, and I started there because I saw such division with the brothers on this issue, and realized that this one issue, throws everything else out of whack if you get it wrong. So I set out just reading the bible again in the few places its spoken of, and then I got to the book of Revelation and decided to read it all because it is an End Time Prophetic book, I wanted to see if God placed any clues about the Rapture in there. Then I got to the 19th chapter and my eyes were opened, the Church is in Heaven, Marries the Lamb, then RETURNS with the Lamb from Heaven to earth, all while the Beast and his Kings/minions are still on earth !! END OF STORY !! The Rapture has to happen way before the Tribulation is about to come to an end. Grom there then I just kept chugging along until I was shown and understood that the Rapture was Pre Trib and could only be Pre Trib. 

OK, I said all that to say this about "MEN'S TRADITIONS" because those Men's Traditions led me to believe that the "Meaning of the Great Tribulation" as per Rev. 7:14 had to be talking about the Greatest Troubles ever that happen during the 70th week, BUT.......why does it HAVE TO MEAN the 70th Week Tribulation ? REMEMBER, let's put off preconceived ideas/ideals and let God teach us. Does this mean that these people came out of the 70th Week Tribulation period or have we just been conditioned to think that by those TWO WORDS ?  Great Tribulation can only mean the Greatest Troubles Ever right ? Wrong. 

Great has different connotations, it can mean many different things. As in Greatest Troubles or GREATEST TIME PERIOD of Tribulation or troubles, but we of course chose to limit what it could mean to only the "Greatest Ever Troubles" even though it doesn't fit for a few reasons. Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TROUBLES in this world. And thus the Great Tribulation can be and in the Rev. 7 reference is referring to the 2000 year Church Age as the GREATEST EVER PERIOD of Tribulation, thus they came out of the Church Age Tribulation, in which Millions of Christians were murdered, all of the Disciples save John were Martyrs. Those seen in Rev. 7 were Raptured from he Church Age, before the 7oth week started.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So why do people assume that those people in Rev. 7:9-17 have to come out of the 7oth week ? Because it's MEN'S TRADITIONS, we have been trained to think that away, when it can not be that way in reality. The one thing the Holy Spirit has taught me lately is to never rely on single verses, we must take many verses and play them off of each other. You know the ole, "Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little" scriptures. A good example of this is Dan. 7:11 where it says the Beasts will be killed and his body destroyed, and Rev. 19:20 where it says the Beast will be cast Alive into Hell. So what gives ? Because God never contradicts himself, thus I saw it, the Beasts body is indeed killed, but he's never allowed to SLEEP in his Grave until the Second Death in 1000 years like everybody else, hes cast STRAIGHT INTO HELL, and we are Eternal Beings so we live forever in essence.

The Martyrs under the 5th Seal are told specifically that they must wait until their fellow brothers are killed in like manner as they were, thus they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over. They are thus not the ones being spoken of in Rev. 7:9-17, they receive their White Robes signifying that Jesus is telling them they are just, but they will not be given their Glorius bodies just yet. These came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period as in 2000>7. 

So the MEN'S TRADITIONS and not comparing scriptures, has taken us down a wrong road as per to what the "Great Tribulation" means in Rev. 7:14. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...right after 6th seal.

 

I just did a study on the DOTL and it seems to not only be God's Wrath but his 1000 year reign also, thus when Peter speaks about the Heavens passing away in the DOTL, it now all makes perfect sense. The DOTL, also incorporates the 1000 year reign, thus after the 1000 years come the New Heaven and Earth !!

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This only works if the Day of the Lord starts with God's Wrath and runs through Jesus Christ's 1000 year reign on earth !! Amen. This came from putting all the scriptures on the subject together, and then rationalizing what the answer must be. I am still in my study on the DOTL, but this is one conclusion I have come to, the DOTL is a much longer time period than just the 3.5 years of Wrath. It lasts until we get a New Haven and earth.

On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

 7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

 

Well of course the Judgments fall on the Gentiles {Babylon = the Whole World}, but it is designed to get Israel to REPENT from God's perspective, they are His bride !! The REMNANT Church will be here, those Gentiles who came to Christ after the Rapture. The Remnant Church who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God in Rev. 12:17 is the newly converted Gentile Church, it can't be the converted Jews, God PROTECTS THEM in Petra/Bozrah. The Dragon chased Israel but when he couldn't get at Israel he turned to those OTHERS..............The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ, which tells us the Church is in Heaven. Amen.

On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first (two witnesses come in first half of the week before DOTL); Malachi 4

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

The Apostasy in 2 Thess. 2 is not a DEPARTURE of the Faith but the DEPARTURE of the Church from earth. {The passage tells us it's about a Gathering together unto the Lord Jesus} It must come BEFORE the DOTL, as must the Anti-Christ likewise come before the DOTL. So you are correct, the Two-Witnesses show up BEFORE the DOTL, and Israel thus turns back unto God. The Heavenly Wonders come IN THE PRESENCE of the DOTL, or in the FACE of the DOTL or DURING the DOTL. 

Covenant in Hebrew means Agreement, it's only a Holy Covenant when it is with God, this will be an Agreement between NATIONS as in the E.U., Israel and THE MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region. So you are correct, the DOTL will come when they all think they are in PEACE & SAFETY. The First Seal is opened in the Middle of the week, he is the Anti-Christ going forth.

Man, that was a lot of work...........LOL. God Bless, my 2 cents worth. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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Hi Spock.

Thought you may like a couple of diagrams.

DayoftheLord.jpg.b9aef2a4f6a24ba3d91b15aaef30be29.jpg

 

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Overview..jpg.ff351bcdd25a249b08405649e27dd5de.jpg

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Everyone in here has already shown their thoughts and ideas on this, so I won't even go there, lol- truth be told, there are so many different ways things can be construed, depending on who is using what to decipher the various ways this scenario could play out- each giving compelling evidence for things to happen a certain way, at a certain time-and for the most part, each determining that the way they have explained it is 'the way' it will happen, and each person is completely sincere, and, obviously, well-studied with their findings. But everyone can't be right, lol. So, I guess the question I would ask would be...what, exactly, is important here, and why is it important? We all agree that Jesus is going to come back to earth, and the 'end will come'. The antichrist/Satan will be bound and cast into hell, and the rest of it that everyone seems to agree on. The 'question' seems to be 'when' will all of these things take place, what is the timeline, etc.-  I'm just as curious as everyone else, I would love to know just when things are supposed to happen, what will happen first, second, etc.- but I have to admit, reading about bible prophecy like this for many, many years, one thing I've discovered is that...it can cause a great deal of confusion. Is it this? Is it that? But there is 'this' verse for 'that' scenario, yet there is 'that' verse for 'this' scenario- and some will say, 'Well, yes, but you have to take that verse in conjunction with this, that, or the other because this is the way it was meant to be understood', or 'the bible does not contradict itself', which I believe, as well- and on it goes. It's disheartening, especially when everyone truly does want to understand what's going to happen, exactly, and when to expect it. Me too-

So where does that leave things?

I know some of you may think I'm somewhat of a simpleton, lol- and I come at things in a ....well, a simplistic way, and in that sense you would probably be right- but that's because at the end of the day, the one thing I know? Is....I know that I don't know, lol. I was raised to believe in a pre-trib rapture, never questioned it until I was in my 20s, probably- I won't go into detail except to say that I felt it would be more along the lines of somewhere mid-trib, pre-wrath, and that's pretty much where I sit today- I don't trust my own...knowledge, or even insight, to attempt a shot at trying to figure out where everything sits between the bowls and the trumpets, etc., insofar as when Jesus will come back- at this point in my life, I find it interesting to sort of watch what unfolds in the world, the way things are changing, what's changing, who's doing what, what the ramifications of things are, etc.- and see how it could possibly relate to end-time prophecy- The one thing that I can say about it all, and be completely, 100% sure about, is this: If Jesus comes back pre-trib, that would be awesome- none of that other, nasty business to have to worry about or go through- no 'mark', no 'antichrist', you all get what I mean- but if it's mid-trib that it happens, that is going to unhinge a lot of people who don't believe we are going to have to go through any of that- and my own opinion on that is....forewarned is forearmed- so in the end, what would be the most important thing? Being ready...having a close walk with the Lord, being dug down into the Word, instead of getting caught up in minute details about it all-that way, we're ready for whatever way it goes down. Of course, there are those men and women who were called to do exactly what those in here are doing, which is to study these things and to teach- in which case, teach on, my friends-lol. If the Lord has called you to it, well...you have to answer and say, "Here am I, Lord!"~ Myself, I'm an observer of a different type, I think- we each have the way the Lord wants us to approach things. What's important, is that we are all part of the same Body, and called to do the things that we do, some are Marys', some are Marthas', others are Peters', Pauls', Johns, but it all pulls together and is cohesive- and there we have it, lol. 

Just my two-cents. As usual, lol.

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On 2/21/2019 at 9:38 AM, Mystic_Pizza said:

Everyone in here has already shown their thoughts and ideas on this, so I won't even go there, lol- truth be told, there are so many different ways things can be construed, depending on who is using what to decipher the various ways this scenario could play out-

Yes,   so many possibles.......

On 6/15/2018 at 6:34 AM, George said:

Then you come across works that are really "different" than everyone else's positions!  For example, when you read the life of Watchman Nee, you come across how the Chinese government would change the guards outside his cell every day, because of how many were converted when sitting next to his cell!  He suffered greatly for his faith and wrote phenomenal works such as  The Normal Christian Life.  He wrote about victorious Christian living that inspired my walk.  And yet, his end times position was completely and radically different than anyone else I've ever read. 

 

On 6/15/2018 at 6:04 AM, George said:

Shalom,

As I've been reviewing threads in recent weeks, it's amazing to me how fast the term -- "false teacher" and "heretic" are used to slander the brethren on "non-essentials" of the faith.   When these terms are used they should be only used on salvational issues.  If you read our Statement of Faith -- or the Apostles Creed -- these are what I would term "essentials" of the faith.  These essentials are the core values of every born-again believer and shouldn't be issues of debate.  

However, there are MANY other issues that are up for "discussion".  What do I mean discussion points -- well things that are not clearly defined in Scripture -- and in these discussions often are shut down because of the lack of fruit within them.   One of the most debated subjects is the "timing of the rapture." 

In my walk with the Lord, I've found a great many saints that had various viewpoints on these issues.  Many of whom, I would consider Fathers of the faith -- however, I may have disagreed with them over different points of view.

For example, one of the saints I admire, R.A. Torrey wrote a book called the "Person and the Work of the Holy Spirit".  In the midst of his ministry, actually changed his rapture position from Pre-Tribulation to Post-Tribulation.  Now his book, the Person and the Work of the Holy Spirit was written during his time when he taught the "pre-trib" position -- however, he changed his position at the end of his life.  So is this book no longer "valid" -- because he changed his positions?  Absolutely not!   His book, the Person and the Work of the Holy Spirit radically changed my approach to the Holy Spirit and how to walk the Spirit-Filled life.  Amazingly, he was the first superintendent of Moody Bible Institute -- and yet they don't teach what He taught any longer.  But by understanding his life, and his walk, I came away with this understanding as Paul so eloquently wrote --

"1Co 8:2  And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."

So if R.A. Torrey was alive today ... he would have been called by some on both sides of the rapture debate a heretic at different times of his life!

... continuing this thought process


--------------------------------------

On 5/23/2015 at 12:41 PM, George said:

 There are different views on rapture among believers. Some say (1) that the whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation; others believe (2) that the whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured; while still others feel (3) that a part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation. There are mainly these three schools of interpretation on the subject; yet merely because any one of them is different from the one
you hold to does not give you any warrant to denounce the different view as heresy. It is wrong to withhold fellowship simply for this reason.
     Well-known believers are found in all three schools. Of the first school mentioned, names can be cited such as J. N. Darby, William Kelly (C. H. Spurgeon once said that Kelly's brain was as large as the universe), R. A. Torrey (who later changed to a post-tribulation rapture view), Phillips Brooks, James Gray, Arno C. Gaebelein, J. A. Seiss, C. I. Scofield, and so forth.
     Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A. J. Gordon of Boston, A. B. Simpson, W. J. Erdman, W. G. Moorehead, Henry Frost of Canada, James Wright, Benjamin Newton, and so on.
     And as to the third school, we have names such as Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold), G. H. Pember, D. M. Panton (the "prince of prophecy") and others.
     None of the three schools can completely ignore the others, yet only one is correct. Let us therefore examine them with fairness, having the attitude of a judge and not that of a lawyer.

---------------------------------------------

On 5/23/2015 at 3:26 PM, Guest Butero said:

He wasn't saying that some of the Christians were fake.  He was saying that there were basically two categories of Christians, those watching and waiting on the Lord's return, and those who are not.  The careless Christians would miss the first rapture but go in the second rapture.  These are "believers."  It is not real believers and fakes.  George didn't agree with Watchman Nee, so if you believe Watchman Nee's conclusions are correct, you don't agree with George.  George just posted that so we could see what Watchman Nee teaches because it came up in the other thread. 

Yes,  a lot of differences possible...... 

Perhaps it is not the theory of the rapture that is important,  but what people do  ?   Other things associated with their beliefs and their practices and their lifetime (all subject to testing, as written ? ) ....

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