Mid Trib rapture anyone?

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39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but I go with what is written only. It seems, in my mind, that your theories are not exactly what is written. 

Can you prove these 4 visions with scripture? Can you prove they overlap? Or is this just theory?

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Hey Zemke,

im more of a visual learner.  Ant chance you could show me in a visual how you see the seals, trumpets, and bowls play out?  Thanks

We are so very close now to the rapture of the ready saints of God, one can almost taste it. Whats been prophesied about for two thousand years now, is finally almost upon us. The second coming of Christ has to happen otherwise the bible can't be trusted at all. The fact is however hundreds of prohesies have already come true, so what we know is the bible can be trusted and there never been a book like the bible where predictions have come to pass with 100% accuracy. The rapture is simply the first phase of Jesus second coming. The following is a quick study of what is just upon us, there will be much more coming on this soon, even in book form.   I pray this will change your outlook on what going on in the world right now, or better yet confirm it. This is about the return of our Lord and specifically the pre-tribulation rapture of the ready watching church which is almost upon us. This doctrine has been under attack lately and I want to show you why it is still a valid doctrine scripturally. We are getting deeper into Revelation and I am going to show you why I believe the 5th seal has already been broken and the rapture and the sixth seal is next on the agenda. Not that we are looking for any particular sign because his return is immanent, but we need to know where we are in the time line of scripture and events, so we don't get deceived by anyone regardless of their motives.   You may have heard David Wilkerson's  recent prophesy where he foresaw fires coming to the cites of the world. If you haven't I will include just a bit of it here, but it was very short anyway. It can be seen in full at www.worldchallenge.org.  I don't think this is describing a nuclear or enemy attack and I will show you in scripture why. He isn't saying this either, but some will conclude this because much of the time we seem eager to credit things that man can do instead of what God himself is going to do directly.   Of course David Wilkerson is not the only one who is being given visions and dreams about the end times. There are others, including someone from my own church, who have had dreams of fires coming to the earth. Another pastor friend of mine recently had a dream/vision of the sign of Jesus return as spoken of in Matt. 24:30. He said it seemed so real he thought he had returned.   Dave Wilkerson gave another prophesy a few years back that was directly from the book of Revelation in where he said the cities of the world would fall and everything as we know it in the span of an hour would collapse. Part of Rev. 18:17 reads (and all my quoted scripture will be in the NCV unless otherwise noted) : “In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin.....”, speaking of the great city of Babylon and all the other cities of the world, that would fall in the last seven years of man as we know it. So this older prophesy now, is about the end of the seven year tribulation when America and most of the world falls as well. My point here is, his prophesies are always based on scripture so they can be trusted.   Here is an excerpt from his recent letter and prophesy quoting: “I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world. AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE — EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US. For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires — such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago. There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting — including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God’s wrath. In Psalm 11 it is written, 'If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?' (v. 3). God is judging the raging sins of America and the nations. He is destroying the secular foundations". -End quote- Okay, this is fine, but can it be matched up with any prophesy in the bible like his others do? Answer: Yes, it can and I will show you where it does. Also what's to note here is not so much the fires in America, but the entire world. If it was just America, it would lead one to believe a nuclear or some other attack, but since it's worldwide, this is most likely supernatural. I believe this latest prophesy from Dave Wilkerson is not about the end of the seven year tribulation but the beginning. This brings me to discuss the beginning of the tribulation which is almost on us now.  It is my belief that the 5th seal is already been broken and I believe we are living in between the 5th and the 6th seals and here is the evidence for this.   At the breaking of the fifth seal in Rev. 6:9 we see the cry of the martyrs. They ask the Lord, how long will it be until he judges the earth for their murders. Jesus tells them to wait until their number to be killed as they are is complete and that does not complete until the antichrist kills all who won't accept his mark in Rev.13:15 which is approx. halfway through the last seven years.   The glaring point here is, this question would have never been asked if the last seven year tribulation had already begun, because they would have known for themselves the answer to this question, for all true Christians know that once the great tribulation starts, there is just but seven short years left. So what we must conclude here is this seal is broken long before the last seven years starts. The only question is how long and certainly we know that there have been Martyrs since Jesus day, in fact there have been 70 million. The reason they asked the question is because just like Jesus, they don't know the day or the hour of the rapture of the church which starts the beginning of the last seven years.   So for the many of us who have previously believed, or more accurately we have probably just assumed that the first seal has to start the beginning of the tribulation as did I, lets take a closer look at all of this again.   First of all lets define what the word “rapture” means, because some say it does not appear in the bible. The word trinity does not appear either, but there is nothing wrong with us assigning todays language with past truths. Rapture is derived from the Latin word raptu, which means “caught away or caught up”. This is describing what happens to the pre-tribulation rapture ready church.   In Revelation 6:12 & 7:14 at the breaking of the sixth seal and also in Matthew 24:29, Jesus and John are both talking about the same event, the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. The fact that most Christians have not recognized these two passages as containing a description of the pre-tribulation rapture don't negate it's importance. Because we have not identified it clearly in scripture, it has caused much confusion. If we can't see in scripture when this event happens, then much of the other prophesy surrounding it will also be misunderstood, misplaced and mis-interpreted.   Because there are two separate “day of the Lord events” described in the bible, we need to find out which scriptures match with the first one (the rapture), and which ones match up with the second one (the actual physical 2nd coming of Jesus with the saints on white horseback in Rev.19:19). If we don't match them correctly or assign the wrong ones with the wrong event, it can skew the entire study. Part 2......        There has been a lot made of the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ in Christendom and with good reason, because it's a big deal. Just how big a deal seems to be a bone of contention among some who profess to believe in this doctrine. Jesus told us everything we would need to know about when he would return so we would not be caught off guard when he calls. The only thing he left out was the exact day and hour of the 1st phase of this occurrence.  He did not do this because he is cruel, but simply because he himself does not know the exact hour or day as only his father does.  However just because he does not know the day, does not mean he does not know the general time frame or season, as well as the happenings that would surround his return.  He also knows when in the sequence of scriptural events that it occurs because he wrote it and we can see where it is, if we choose to open our eyes fully. Knowing when in the sequence of other events does not tell us the day or hour either, however it is extremely important, because it tells us where we are on the time line of all things.        The reason he knows these things, is because he is the one who causes them to occur.  Also just because we do not know the day or the hour, does not mean we were not told when in the sequence of other end time events that it would occur. We were also told about many other signs that would be occurring right before it happens so we would not be caught unaware. What I am going to submit to you here is, all of these signs are occurring now and have been for some time. We for the most part in Christendom have had our heads in the sand and have been fiddling while Rome is burning.        Jesus and his many other messengers, the disciples and apostles, told us many things about his return including even when in events in scripture it occurs. 2000 years have past and we have come up with basically three explanations of when people think he may return. Problem is only one can be correct. If you don't think it's important to find out which one is the correct position, you may wish you had known if you are wrong and left holding a false teaching. Some think it's not that important to know exactly when he's coming, as long as when he does come you are ready. There is some truth to this, but only knowing some truth as opposed to all the truth can be dangerous.  Some who choose to take sides attack others without the entire picture to back up their positions.        A common mistake that some make is taking only one scripture or thought process and making that into the entire doctrine that they adhere to, whatever it might be.  In the case of the 2nd coming, we  find some scripture that talks about how some holy people have to persevere to the end of the tribulation period to gain their Salvation.  So what has happened is, some believe that all Christians have to endure to the end of the tribulation to be saved. But what they have failed to recognize is, there are more than one group of people talked about in end times Revelation prophesy.  So while it's true, some will in fact have to endure to the very end, what is very plain in other scripture, is some won't, because  there are other scriptures that tell us at least some are leaving early.  Since all scripture is true, it's not one or the other that's correct, but all.  We also need to recognize two major groups in the bible who are given what seem to be two different messages about end times prophesy.  The first group is the original Old Testament elect, the nation of Israel, who's people is the Jews.  The second group is the church that was formed in the 1st century, some of whom were Jews as well, but they offered the invitation of God's good news of Salvation to all, both Jew and non-Jew who they called Gentiles.        There are three basic camps or beliefs that are as follows and I will try and keep this simple instead of using theologian talk, but before we explore this in more detail we need to recognize why there are three groups or factions to start with. One of the reasons why there are so many beliefs is because some refuse to take the bible literally. This especially true with Revelation prophesy, because of it's occasional symbolism.  What they fail to realize is, almost all Revelatory symbolism is explained almost immediately after the symbol is identified, right in the same passage.  Another thing that some do is, they see in Revelation that there is a numerical, sequential and chronological order to things, but the refuse to follow the order.        They do this because they do not want to be dogmatic(strict) about the order, as if they do, they would have to admit to some things that they would rather not do. IE: If you look at the 6th seal of Revelation which spans chapters six and seven, you would find a massive group of people from every part of the world that is seen in heaven. We are even told who they are and where they came from! But do you think theologians can read this and realize that it describes a giant catching away, Rapture like event?  Even though the evidence is overwhelming and clear, they refuse to recognize this. But why do they fail? Here are some reasons with first an explanation of the three factions.   1. Some believe that Jesus is coming before the last great tribulation begins, these people are known as Pre-tribulation Rapture believers. 2. Some think that he is coming sometime in the middle of the tribulation period, perhaps after the 7th angel trumpet, these are called mid-tribbers. 3. Some think that he is coming sometime closer to the end of the tribulation period and they are known as post tribulationists.  There are be some who believe in no rapture at all, possibly because they are tired of the bickering among the other groups, but they are a smaller number, so we are mainly looking at three main camps.        We will look at the many scriptures that pertain to this doctrine so you can make up your own mind, but a few basics first. The reason there is three camps to start with, is because they are looking at certain scriptures to bolster their positions. It's not that they don't have scripture that they are standing on, the problem is, some refuse to acknowledge all scripture on the subject and you can take this to other church doctrine as well. This is also one reason why there are so many church denominations.        But if they would all recognize that the the bible shows us a 6th seal Rapture, it would cause the following tumult. The pre-tribbers haven't recognized it, because they think a 6th seal Rapture means that Christians may have to live through a part of the last great tribulation, so they think this 6th seal Rapture, is occurring too late for their liking.  What they fail to realize is, the tribulation does not start until after the 6th seal.        The mid-tribbers won't recognize the 6th seal Rapture, because to them, it occurs too early still, and they want to adhere to the 'last trumpet' Rapture, which they think occurs after the 7th angel trumpet in chapter eight of Revelation. What they fail to realize is, the 7th angel trumpet is a judgment for those left on the earth and the Rapture is a reward.  Also they miss that an angel does not blow 'the last trumpet', instead Jesus blows the Rapture trumpet himself. But he does this by not even blowing an actual trumpet, but just using his voice which sounds like a trumpet as described in the 1st and 2nd chapter of Revelation. He will do one call, in three manifestations, to call his ready followers to meet him in the air.        The post-tribbers won't recognize a 6th seal Rapture, because they think all Christians must endure to the end to be saved and a 6th seal Rapture is just much too soon. What they fail to realize is, everyone's end is different. For some their end is today! 500 Christians are Martyred everyday to add to the already 70 million who went on before them.        Now with another new study out telling people that some poll says most “Christians,” don't believe Jesus is coming until 2050, and it's no wonder few are ready for what is just about to happen.  Jesus said he would come at a time when we least expect it. Well if most are expecting him for 40 more years, then his coming now would fulfill this scripture and truly this is exactly what is about to happen. All the signs of this coming are going on all around us.  From the plans to rebuild the final tribulation temple in Jerusalem, to the earthquakes, volcanoes, riots, wars and rumors of wars, there has never been an intensity and multiplied number of all these signs together as there is now. Why? Because the 6th seal Pre-tribulation Rapture is about to occur and it will come as most of the American church said no not now Jesus, we don't believe that, we have lives to live.        But it will happen none the less and many will wonder why their Pastors, Priests and Rabbis, who are all paid to do so, did not tell them the whole truth about something so simple to just read and believe. There are going to be many angry church going people who are going to wonder why someone did not tell them the whole truth.        Now one of these three beliefs requires more faith to believe it than the other two. With two of the three all you have to do is wait for a few major signs, such as the 1st trumpet judgment where fire burns up 1/3 of the earth, or the 2nd trumpet where 1/3 of the water turn to blood and 1/3 of all the ships and sea life die, to realize that Jesus is on his way. This stance which is more of a mid tribulation stance, would simply require sight to notice the major signs. Problem is, it negates Jesus coming as a thief as he said he would and takes less faith to believe in, than those who believe Jesus is coming sooner with less of a notice.        With the post tribulation stance you just wait for even more obvious major signs like the 5th trumpet where a demonic army wipes out 2 billion  people, then the Mark of the beast is initiated,  millions are beheaded for their faith, and all the water is turned to blood etc., as the punishments get progressively worse. This takes even less faith than the mid tribulation stance and you don't even have to look for Jesus return, you just wait for the Antichrist to come on to the scene as he wreaks havoc.      The Pre-tribulation stance takes the most faith of all, but if you know your scripture well enough, you will think it's madness to believe anything but.               So now I have compiled all the scriptures pertaining to the soon coming catching away of the ready watching saints, into one study here.  This is an amazing thing to do and when you see it all put together like this it paints a much clearer picture. You might not have known that the Old Testament does have a few scriptures that pertain to this event.        Whether or not the the prophets Isiah or Joel knew that they were talking about the Rapture event or not, does not really matter, they probably didn't. However they likely knew that they were at least talking about future events. They probably knew when they were talking out their own people, the Jews, who would be punished for their sins and turning their backs on God, but that God would some day call them back to himself again and they would repopulate the earth as was promised to them to Abraham in Genesis. But starting with Isiah lets look at the details of some of what happens during the Rapture event of Revelation's 6th and 7th chapters as we match up the wording with all like scripture and see how it all gets fulfilled in Revelation.   Isiah.13:10 reads: “The stars will not show their light; the skies will be dark. The sun will grow dark as it rises, and the moon will not give its light”. Then Is.34:4 reads: “ The sun, moon, and stars will dissolve, and the sky will be rolled up like a scroll. The stars will fall like dead leaves from a vine or dried-up figs from a fig tree”. We see this same language at the breaking of the sixth seal of Revelation 6:13-14 because it it where it gets fulfilled. “And the stars in the sky fell to the earth like figs falling from a fig tree when the wind blows.” The sky disappeared as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.   Is 24:23 tells us about the sun and the moon: “The moon will be embarrassed and the sun will be ashamed. Because the Lord All-powerful will rule as king on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.  Jerusalem's leaders will see his greatness”. Joel 2:31 reads:  The sun will become dark, the moon red as blood, before the overwhelming and terrible day of the Lord comes”.        There is more than one terrible or great day of the Lord in end times prophesy. The first one is the day after the Rapture at the breaking of the 6th seal.  The second one is at the battle of Armageddon in Revelation chapter 19, but as we will see later, there will be far less people even alive at Revelation chapter 19, after most of the world has been killed by the various punishments.  Here in Revelation 6:16-17, the people proclaim themselves what day this is, because as we will see later, they just saw Jesus collect his followers in the air. They proclaim as they call to the mountains and rocks:   "Fall on us. Hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb! The great day for their anger has come, and who can stand against it?"   Jesus with more similar wording in Matthew and speaking in veryclear words of what he will do when he collects the ready 24:28-30 said: "Soon after the trouble of those days, 'the sun will grow dark, and the moon will not give its light.  The stars will fall from the sky.   And the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” “At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the peoples of the world will cry. They will see the Son of Man coming on clouds in the sky with great power and glory. He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from every part of the world”.        In Matthew 25:10, we see how Jesus told us that some in the church would be left behind if they were not ready spiritually: “So while the five foolish bridesmaids went to buy oil, the bridegroom came. The bridesmaids who were ready went with the bridegroom to the wedding feast, then the door was closed and locked.”   Mark 13:24-26 is identical to Matthew 24:28-30.   In Luke 12:39-40 Jesus talked again about being ready for his return: 39 "Remember this: If the owner of the house knew what time a thief was coming, he would not allow the thief to enter his house. 40 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at a time when you don't expect him!"   Jesus in describing what life will be like when he returns said in Luke :17:24-36:     24. "When the Son of Man comes again, he will shine like lightning, which flashes across the sky and lights it up from one side to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by the people of this time.26 When the Son of Man comes again, it will be as it was when Noah lived.27 People were eating, drinking, marrying, and giving their children to be married until the day Noah entered the boat. Then the flood came and killed them all.28 It will be the same as during the time of Lot. People were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, and building.29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from the sky and killed them all. 30 This is how it will be when the Son of Man comes again.        This is simply describing normal life and even the good life which will be absent after he takes his ready ones out of the world for the final great testing period. We can look at our current times and economy and realize that though it is down from it's high, we can still eat, drink, get married, buy, sell, plant and build. He continues in verse 31:       31 "On that day, a person who is on the roof and whose belongings are in the house should not go inside to get them. A person who is in the field should not go back home. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Those who try to keep their lives will lose them. But those who give up their lives will save them.34 I tell you, on that night two people will be sleeping in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken, and the other will be left.  36 Two people will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left."        Jesus is speaking more to the attitude of the heart and general readiness of the people.  If one is more concerned with the material things of this life than the spiritual, they will not be ready and therefore will be left behind as Lot's wife was. Lot's wife looked back on Sodom after being told not to and she was turned into a pillar of salt. Anyone with the same attitude as she had which was to love the sinful life, more than the holy life, will be left behind to see if they can get it right. We also see as in chapter 25 of Matthew, one will be taken and the other left. This could actually mean half the church will be taken and the other left. That remains to be seen of course, but for sure we know not all professing Christians are going, instead many will be left behind.  It is possible that they will be saved later on however, because as many as one billion tribulation saints will be beheaded by the Antichrist and thereby purchase their Salvation, by becoming willing Martyrs.        In Luke 21:25-28, Jesus tells us what will be going on all around us when he snatches away his ready followers. This is all happening now with the earthquakes, riots, volcanoes and other supernatural disasters : 25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. On earth, nations will be afraid and confused because of the roar and fury of the sea. 26 People will be so afraid they will faint, wondering what is happening to the world, because the powers of the heavens will be shaken.27 Then people will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.        Then Jesus gives the timing on the when. He says when the begin to happen look up, not in the middle or near the end, but when they begin.   28 When these things begin to happen, look up and hold your heads high, because the time when God will free you is near!"   Luke 21:34-36: 34 "Be careful not to spend your time feasting, drinking, or worrying about worldly things. If you do, that day might come on you suddenly, 35 like a trap on all people on earth. 36 So be ready all the time. Pray that you will be strong enough to escape all these things that will happen and that you will be able to stand before the Son of Man."        More incredible proof that some are leaving early be escaping before the worst happens. Pray that you will be strong enough to escape, tells us that some are definitely leaving early, but we have to be strong enough by keeping our white robes of Salvation clean.   1 Corinthians 15:51-52:   51 “But look! I tell you this secret: We will not all sleep in death, but we will all be changed.52 It will take only a second—as quickly as an eye blinks—when the last trumpet sounds. The trumpet will sound, and those who have died will be raised to live forever, and we will all be changed.”        Note: This is the last trump of God being blown here by Jesus himself, not by an angel. The seven angel trumpet blasts are incurring punishments during the tribulation period, the call to heaven by Jesus, is not a punishment, so must be separated out from the others. More on this in just a bit. Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18:        “The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And those who have died believing in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive will be gathered up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever.18 So encourage each other with these words.”           This is the trumpet that Jesus will be blowing himself to call his elect to himself, but notice how it is described as three separate things: He himself gives: 1. A loud command. 2. also in the voice of the archangel. 3. And with the trumpet call of God.  A fair question to ask here is, how can he do all three simultaneously?  Well what if his voice sounded like a trumpet? Is this a possibility?  In Revelation 1:10 it reads: “On the Lord's day I was in the Spirit, and I heard a loud voice behind me that sounded like a trumpet”.   Also in Revelation 4:1 it reads :  “After the vision of these things I looked, and there before me was an open door in heaven. And the same voice that spoke to me before, that sounded like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.”        Answer: Yes a voice can sound like a trumpet, especially when it is Jesus who can do anything. Paul continues in1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 by telling us Jesus is coming 'like a thief' and by the way, because he is coming 'like a thief' this is not referring to the secrecy of a thief, but the surprise of a thief. We will see in just a bit how everyone sees the Rapture event, it will be no secret at all.      1 “Now, brothers and sisters, we do not need to write you about times and dates.2 You know very well that the day the Lord comes again will be a surprise, like a thief that comes in the night.3 While people are saying, "We have peace and we are safe," they will be destroyed quickly. It is like pains that come quickly to a woman having a baby. Those people will not escape.4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not living in darkness, and so that day will not surprise you like a thief.”        Again Paul like Jesus is talking about escape here. In fact a great escape. Lets also realize that escape means to not be there physically, not to be protected during. Some are escaping, some are staying.  Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8, is talking about something that needs to happen before Jesus can come, specifically the taking out of the way of a restrainer of evil. Many think it could be the Holy Spirit in the lives of the ready who will be removed, because he is called 'he' and this is certainly a possibility.  But it could also be a powerful angel. Many times in the bible we see angels restraining evil.   “Do not let anyone fool you in any way. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens and the Man of Evil, who is on his way to hell, appears. 4 He will be against and put himself above any so-called god or anything that people worship. And that Man of Evil will even go into God's Temple and sit there and say that he is God”.    5 “I told you when I was with you that all this would happen. Do you not remember?6 And now you know what is stopping that Man of Evil so he will appear at the right time.7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world, but there is one who is stopping that power. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way.8 Then that Man of Evil will appear, and the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth and will destroy him with the glory of his coming”.        It does not take a doctorate in theology to see that the growing apostasy in the church now has already taken root and many have already turning away from God.  Also the Antichrist may already be revealed as revealed or appearing does not necessarily mean identification.  Jesus appeared at his birth, but he was not revealed fully until much later in his life. Even when the Antichrist is fully identified by the fatal head wound and signs the seven year peace treaty with Israel, still people will deny who he is and he will never be identified as such in the media as he will control it.     In 2 Timothy 3:1-5 Paul describes what people will be like. I think we can see this now if we are honest and looking: 1 “Remember this! In the last days there will be many troubles,2 because people will love themselves, love money, brag, and be proud. They will say evil things against others and will not obey their parents or be thankful or be the kind of people God wants.3 They will not love others, will refuse to forgive, will gossip, and will not control themselves. They will be cruel, will hate what is good,4 will turn against their friends, and will do foolish things without thinking. They will be conceited, will love pleasure instead of God,5 and will act as if they serve God but will not have his power. Stay away from those people”.        Many have a form of religion, but deny the power of real religion, which is the power of the Holy Spirit in the believers life. Many in the church today believe that this power is not even needed. They tell others they have enough of it, or that it was only for the first century church. This is a dangerous belief and doctrine.  We need more of his Holy Spirit as the day of the Rapture approaches, not less.   Paul in Titus 2:11-13 said:   “That is the way we should live, because God's grace that can save everyone has come. 12 It teaches us not to live against God nor to do the evil things the world wants to do. Instead, that grace teaches us to live in the present age in a wise and right way and in a way that shows we serve God. 13 We should live like that while we wait for our great hope and the coming of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”.      This is the blessed hope that all true Christians are to be thinking on. Not thinking on it can turn even the best of intentions, into the scoffing of this immanent event.  There are many scoffers in the church now as we were told there would be right before his return.   2 Peter 3:3 then 3:8 also reads from Peter: ”First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance”.    Peter also said in 2 Peter 3:10-11:   10 “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The skies will disappear with a loud noise. Everything in them will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be exposed. 11 In that way everything will be destroyed. So what kind of people should you be? You should live holy lives and serve God”        Finally in Revelation we see all of these Rapture verses fulfilled and move toward the actual event. Revelation 1:7 reads with John the Revelator saying: “ Look, Jesus is coming with the clouds, and everyone will see him, even those who stabbed him. And all peoples of the earth will cry loudly because of him. Yes, this will happen! Amen”.        Notice how John tells us everyone will see him even those who stabbed him, and where are they now? Dead and in hell unless they repented. How will they be able to see him? Supernaturally as will everyone else, as the sky is rolled back like a scroll or a curtain. The Rapture will not be a secret event at all. Then John in the seven Revelatory letters to the churches gives more insight on some who are leaving and some who are staying, to those who refuse to get holy and keep their white robes clean by constant repentance if needed, he says in Revelation 3:3:   3 “So do not forget what you have received and heard. Obey it, and change your hearts and lives. So you must wake up, or I will come like a thief, and you will not know when I will come to you.” But to those who obey he makes a promise in Revelation 3:10-11: 10 “You have obeyed my teaching about not giving up your faith. So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the whole world to test those who live on earth. 11. "I am coming soon. Continue strong in your faith so no one will take away your crown”.        Some will be 'kept from' the time of trouble, much like the escape wording. IE:To keep your child from going to school is to keep back physically not protected during.        Finally we get to see where all these descriptions are fulfilled here at the sixth seal of Revelation, which is just about to be broken by Jesus (The lamb).  This is all like kind language but even with more detail. Revelation 6:12-17:    12 “Then I watched while the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black like rough black cloth, and the whole moon became red like blood.13 And the stars in the sky fell to the earth like figs falling from a fig tree when the wind blows.14 The sky disappeared as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.    15 Then the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the rich people, the powerful people, the slaves, and the free people hid themselves in caves and in the rocks on the mountains.16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us. Hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb!17 The great day for their anger has come, and who can stand against it?"        We have seen all similar wording in the previous prophecies by Jesus and others and we never see this language again after the 6th seal, because this is where it occurs. Notice how there is no talk of facing the Antichrist, battle cries, white horses, or Jesus coming to bring final judgment here as we see later on in Revelation 19, or in other Old Testament 2nd coming verses which litter the prophetic books from Isiah to Malachi. This is the start of the last great tribulation period, because Revelation 7: 9-15 proclaims it with evidence of a large crowd of people who have been removed from the earth:   Revelation 7:9-15 reads: 9 “After the vision of these things I looked, and there was a great number of people, so many that no one could count them. They were from every nation, tribe, people, and language of the earth. They were all standing before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.10 They were shouting in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."11 All the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures. They all bowed down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,12 saying, "Amen! Praise, glory, wisdom, thanks, honor, power, and strength belong to our God forever and ever. Amen!"   13 Then one of the elders asked me, "Who are these people dressed in white robes? Where did they come from?" 14 I answered, "You know, sir." And the elder said to me, "These are the people who have come out of the great distress. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15 Because of this, they are before the throne of God. They worship him day and night in his temple. And the One who sits on the throne will be present with them”.        So the Rapture has to occur with the sky being rolled back either right before the 6th seal is broken, or as it is broken at the same time, since Jesus comes as a thief. Then the rest of the seal is unleashed. But do not let the fact that this removal occurs at the 6th seal discourage you into thinking that all Christians have to live through some part of the last great tribulation. We have mistakenly thought that it has to occur before the 1st seal, not realizing that the first five seals have already been broken long ago by Jesus, most likely as soon as he went back to heaven. We need to remember that Revelation began back in the 1st century when John was told not to close the prophesy of Revelation.  Jesus told him it was for then Johns time, and the future, so it was not all future. Daniel however, was told to close his prophesy until the time of the end. So Daniels starts after the great tribulation begins, especially the last 3 ½ years of the seven, while Revelation has already begun. Even Peter proclaimed in Acts, quoting Joel, that the last days began back in his day, so we are now living in the last of the last days. We are likely the generation that will get to see the end of all things.        We are not living before the seven seals right now, but instead in the midst of the fifth and sixth, which also coincides with the lull in between Daniels 69th and 70th week. Many theologians believe we are simply waiting for the 70th week to commence which will start the last great tribulation. If you do even a quick read of the first five seals of Revelation you will discover there is nothing new in them that has not been going on for centuries and more. Also the question that the Martyrs ask Jesus in the 5th seal, show us that it has to be a past event and can't be something that starts after the Rapture occurs and great tribulation begins. It reads in Revelation 6:9:     “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed”.        This is not a question that will need to be asked after the Rapture, the 6th seal, or the start of the last great tribulation, because they would then know how long, as most Christians know, once the last great tribulation starts, it will only be approximately seven years to the physical return of Jesus to in fact avenge these deaths.        But there is another huge sign among the many going on everywhere to the soon return of Jesus. It is the preparation of the last Jewish temple that will be built in Jerusalem, only to one last time be destroyed during the last great tribulation and then rebuilt one last time for the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth. The model has already been built, the Levites are being trained now and they are simply waiting for God to intervene with the miraculous way in which he will allow it to be built.        Since the 6th seal will be so massive and destructive, it would be a perfect time for God to take out the dome of the rock in Jerusalem with one of the millions of star fragments that he will unleash on the world. Along with the world wide massive earthquake, the removal of millions of real Christians, the asteroids will cause massive worldwide loss of life, looting and rioting. But we see at the 6th seal, the people of earth know this is from God, so at least for a time, the people and governments will submit to God and the Jews, by signing the seven year peace treaty with Israel and this will officially start the last seven year countdown.  Also God may take out much the military might of the world by dropping the stars on their air-forces etc. This is why we see later on in Revelation armies who must wait for the river Euphrates to dry up before they can cross. With the air forces of today, nothing of the like has to occur as they just fly to the wars they engage in.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but I go with what is written only. It seems, in my mind, that your theories are not exactly what is written. 

Can you prove these 4 visions with scripture? Can you prove they overlap? Or is this just theory?

Hi imlamad,

 

This view of Revelation is by Dr. Charles J. Rolls. (on the back of one of his books -)

 

He was renowned on several continents for his encyclopaedic knowledge of scripture and his radiant devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Educated at the University of Cambridge, Dr. Rolls has been a missionary in India, and a home director for the Sudan interior mission for New Zealand and Australia. He was founder or Dean of Bible schools in New Zealand, Australia, and the United States, later relinquishing this ministry to concentrate on writing and preaching largely in the United States and Canada, where He made his final home.

 

This photo (on the book) taken on his 96^th birthday, shows Dr. Rolls with the Newberry Bible he has used for more than three-quarters of a century, bulging with hundreds of interleaved pages and outlines in his meticulous engraving-like script.

 

 

(I was handed down some of Dr. Rolls books by my parents when they passed on, and then I bought some second hand on the internet)

 

The 4 Visions of Christ in Revelation.

The predominant aim of Revelation is the setting forth the splendours of the Son of Man, & to reveal His glorious person.  There are four visions of the Son of Man as He is known in the heavenly realm & each vision in turn carries through to completion one aspect of the fourfold ministry of Christ which He exercised when on earth. His Kinship was expressed in Matthew, His Heirship in Mark, His Mediatorship in Luke, & His Judgeship in John.                                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                           

   Vision 1.         CHRIST -  Head of the Body.   (Rev. 1 – 3)

This reveals the empowered Son of Man as the Sovereign Administrator.

                              `in His right hand He held 7 stars.`

 

 

Vision 2.   CHRIST -   HEIR     (Rev. 4 – 7)

This reveals the enthroned Son of Man as the Supreme Executor.

                         `in His right hand He held the 7 sealed book.`

 

 

 

Vision 3.    CHRIST -  MEDIATOR       (Rev. 8 – 13)

This reveals the exalted Son of Man as the Stately Mediator.

                        `in His hand is a sacred censor.`

 

 

Vision 4.    CHRIST -  JUDGE       (Rev. 14 – 22)

This reveals the entitled Son of Man as the Sublime Adjudicator.

                                         `in His hand is a sharp sickle.`

 

 

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.

 

 This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centred on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

 

[ARGOSY]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

I am having a problem reconciling the timeline I recently proposed..

i asked if this was possible:

1. First 3.5 years.....two witnesses doing their thing  (it appears they are resurrected at the 6th trumpet)

2. Rapture shortly before midpoint, AOD at midpoint

3. Second 3.5 years......two of satan’s witnesses rule. (AC, FP) 

undecided: how the seals and trumpets play out. 

my dilemma is this:  I do not believe the church experiences God’s wrath. I believe God’s wrath commences after the 6th seal (thus the rapture should take place at this point). However, I also see the rapture at Rev 12:5.

How to make all this fit?  Is it even possible? 

NO....It doesn’t seem possible. I don’t see how the 6th seal can precede the rapture at the midpoint when the 6th trumpet apparently precedes the midpoint. 

THEREFORE, TIMELINE PLAN B MODEL:

 I think I can make this fit is I had the two witnesses doing their thing in the second half of the week together with the beast and false prophet.  Maybe that is what I need to do.

1. First half of the week, 3.5 years:  6th seal near the end close to the midpoint, rapture here

2. Midpoint:  AOD, fleeing of Jews, trumpets begin

3. Second half of the week, 3.5 years: trumpets play out; AC and 10 nations take over; bowls at the end of the week

ANY THOUGHTS, COMMENTS, CRITICISMS, APPLAUSE ON TIMELINE PLAN B MODEL?

We go through the tribulation, we have always experienced troubles plagues and persecutions because this planet is full of those events. The one or two references to not experiencing wrath are specifically about the intense wrath on the day of the Lord. We miss that wrath because we are raptured earlier before the armies reach Jerusalem and the sulfur/hail and the great earthquake. The rapture is associated with the thief in the night and destruction:

we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,”destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. ⁵ You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. ⁶ So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. ⁷ For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.⁸ But since we belong to the day,let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. ⁹ For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath 

[ARGOSY]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

 

A good place to understand the timing of the rapture is Rev 16:15. The armies gather, but the war hasn't started:

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Edited March 9, 2019 by ARGOSY

[Spock]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are correct; I am cringing!  I am having a problem reconciling the timeline  Right! You SHOULD have a problem with plan A: your timeline is BOGUS!

Did you put all these points on little pieces of paper and draw them from a hat to determine order?  ?

How about plan B?

Midpoint:  AOD, fleeing of Jews, trumpets begin  HOW? John has the trumpets before the fleeing. Or did you just forget that?

Spock, I have a novel idea: why not just use JOHN'S timeline? Try this:  Two witnesses just before midpoint; Midpoint:  AOD, 7th trumpet, fleeing of Jews, trumpets history at this point in time, vials will follow later.

3. Second half of the week, 3.5 years: Good so far.

trumpets play out  WRONG! Trumpets are in the first half. Fleeing is because of seeing the abomination that divides the week. Fleeing is AFTER the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint.

bowls at the end of the week  No, bowls late in the week to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation. No one knows when they will begin. It is my guess the first 6 are all poured out in one hour. The week is marked for your convenience: 7th seal opens the week, 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, 7th vial ends the week. This is John's order.

 

I’m trying to look at A Timeline that shows the rapture in Rev 12:5.  I have to see if this can fit with all that I think I know to be true.  And I’m assuming 12:5 is just before the midpoint, just before the AOD. 

Its a work in process as you can see. 

TIMELINE PLAN C (tweaked based on your suggestion)

1. First 3.5 years:  peace treaty, 6th seal/RAPTURE about 3 years in; trumpets 1-4 released AFTER the rapture

2. Midpoint: Two witnesses show up, maybe a few days before AOD; AOD, Jews flee, 5th Trumpet released after AOD (not sure about this) ; 6th trumpet released later in week

3. Second 3.5 years:  AC goes after Remnant Jews (protected) and believers (not protected);  two witnesses die near end and then resurrected; end of 6th trumpet; Bowls released

4. End of week:  Jesus returns with Saints

Edited March 9, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

1.  Already have.   But you can add to coming with HIS  angels, 

A.  There were multiple voices [*[[1Th 4:16]] KJV* For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:]

B.  There was a trumpet and an earthquake and voices: 

[*[[Rev 8:5]] KJV* And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.]

2. Already have but here it is again: 

A.[*[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the DEAD, that they SHOULD BE  JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.] 

B. The blessing of Abraham is the resurrection from the dead: 

[*[[Gal 3:14]] KJV* That the BLESSING of ABRAHAM might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...*[[Gal 3:18]] KJV* For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise...*[[Gal 3:21]] KJV* Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which COULD HAVE GIVEN  LIFE, verily righteousness should have been by the law.] 

The Blessing of Abraham is what the law could not give...LIFE! 

*[[Dan 12:12]] KJV* Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

We have been through this before.   The resurrection of the prophets,  Daniel included,  takes place 45 days after Michael stands up..."at the end of the days".  Michael stands up at the time that Satan is cast out at the 6th seal.

3.  Already showed you that the 7 trumpet angels of Jesus have thee purpose of casting out the offensive and the men of iniquity from the kingdom of the Son:

[Verse list:    
Mat 13:41-42 KJVLite    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.]

This purpose is found here: 

*[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

I would be careful about denouncing (as you have in the past,  and probably will do again) what is written in scripture.   I got no problem if you choose not to believe what is written in the scriptures.   But to renounce then as untrue or as imagination,  makes you personally accountable to God for taking away from the prophecies of HIS book: 

*[[Rev 22:19]] KJV* And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Blessings

The PuP 

I don't renounce scripture! What I may renounce is someone's THEORY of scripture. 

It is for sure I see the trumpet judgments differently than you do. They are things that MUST come to pass before Satan can be cast down from his position of the spiritual ruler of the world. They are judgments against people that refuse to repent. 

Tonight I did have a light bulb moment. I wonder, is it possible that the 6th trumpet where 1/3 of the world is killed is actually the parable of the tares? IF not, where do you all see the parable of the tares taking place?

We have been through this before.   The resurrection of the prophets,  Daniel included,  takes place 45 days after Michael stands up..."at the end of the days".  Michael stands up at the time that Satan is cast out at the 6th seal.  You write this, but how do you come to this conclusion?

So you found two verses that have a trumpet sound, a voice or a shout, and an earthquake - and you imagine they are the same event? Do you call this good exegesis? 

Paul says MUCH more about the rapture than a shout.  He tells us WHEN in relation to the Day of the Lord and the start of God's wrath. There is only ONE PLACE in Revelation that Paul's rapture can fit: it must be JUST before God's wrath begins. We find that at the 6th seal.  See how simple it is? Paul tells us there will be "sudden destruction" associated with the rapture. You see, at one moment in time, those alive and in Christ get raptured; abut AT THAT SAME MOMENT in time, those living in darkness are left behind, and they suffer sudden destruction. That tells us that the sudden destruction happens very soon after the dead in Christ rise. I am convinced that when the dead in Christ rise, it will CAUSE a worldwide earthquake. I am convinced it is the earthquake at the 6th seal. I am convinced that earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. 

It was Paul and Paul alone that received the revelation of the rapture and the timing of the rapture. We can't go to Matthew for instance, and learn of the rapture. Only John gave us a hint of the rapture, telling us Jesus went to build homes for us (the typical Jewish wedding) and one day will come and get us and take us to those homes prepared.  John did not know when He saw the great crowd too large to number, that it was the "just raptured" church...or else he DID know but did not write it. 

Therefore, we have Paul's timing in 1 thes. and in 2 Thes, we have the great crowd in Revelation showing us timing,  and we have God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal showing us timing.  Because the bible is clear on the timing of the rapture, I don't agree with people that imagine the rapture some other time.  

You write some good things, but most of the time I have to disagree - not with the scriptures you post - but with your take on those scriptures.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Spock said:

I’m trying to look at A Timeline that shows the rapture in Rev 12:5.  I have to see if this can fit with all that I think I know to be true.  And I’m assuming 12:5 is just before the midpoint, just before the AOD. 

Its a work in process as you can see. 

TIMELINE PLAN C (tweaked based on your suggestion)

1. First 3.5 years:  peace treaty, 6th seal about 3 years in; trumpets 1-4 released

2. Midpoint: Two witnesses show up, maybe a few days before AOD; AOD, Jews flee, 5th Trumpet released after AOD (not sure about this) ; 6th trumpet released later in week

3. Second 3.5 years:  AC goes after Remnant Jews (protected) and believers (not protected);  two witnesses die near end and then resurrected; end of 6th trumpet; Bowls released

4. End of week:  Jesus returns with Saints

We have road marks that give us information: we have Daniel 9:27 that tells us some event will divide the week into two halves. It will also stop the daily sacrifices.  It is a strong hint that it will be the abomination that will divide the week. 

Paul tells us the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple. WE have knowledge of the Old Covenant that tells us such and event would most certainly stop the daily sacrifices. Therefore, putting two and two together (so to speak) it will be the man of sin entering the temple that will divide the week. From Revelation we can determine this time MUST be somewhere in chapters 11 through 13 where the half week is mentioned 5 different times. 

Jesus told those who SEE the abomination to FLEE. We see that fleeing in 12:6. Mark this down: write it in permanent ink!  Verse 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination!  They have SEEN the abomination and are following Jesus words; they are fleeing.  

Bottom line? You will NEVER find a time line that fits if you put the rapture in 12:5. Just give up that idea! 

Sorry, wrong timeline that does not fit scripture: the 6th seal begins God's wrath and the Day of the Lord. How could you possibly have the 70th week beginning before the 6th seal?  If you have the 6th seal 3 years in, then what John wrote before the 6th seal must also be a part of the 70th week. Sorry, the martyrs of the 5th seal are church age. 

you are right on the two witnesses; they will show up probably 3.5 days before the AOD. Then the fleeing will be seconds after the AOD. 

You should know this for sure: NO trumpet will ever sound before all 7 seals are opened. Don't even think other wise!

Of course you are free to believe anything.  I have a simple question: why not accept the timeline John gives us? Can you find problems with his timeline?  AH! It is trying to force a rapture in chapter 12! It just won't work! God's wrath will have been ongoing for 3.5 years. SO you have set appointments for the entire body of Christ with God's wrath! Good luck with that!

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

A good place to understand the timing of the rapture is Rev 16:15. The armies gather, but the war hasn't started:

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Sorry, but that theory disagrees with Paul's timing of the rapture. HIS timing is before God's wrath begins - at the 6th seal. I think I would rather go with what Paul wrote - after all, HE was the only one to receive revelation on the rapture. 

[Spock]

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

We have road marks that give us information: we have Daniel 9:27 that tells us some event will divide the week into two halves. It will also stop the daily sacrifices.  It is a strong hint that it will be the abomination that will divide the week. 

Paul tells us the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple. WE have knowledge of the Old Covenant that tells us such and event would most certainly stop the daily sacrifices. Therefore, putting two and two together (so to speak) it will be the man of sin entering the temple that will divide the week. From Revelation we can determine this time MUST be somewhere in chapters 11 through 13 where the half week is mentioned 5 different times. 

Jesus told those who SEE the abomination to FLEE. We see that fleeing in 12:6. Mark this down: write it in permanent ink!  Verse 12:6 is only seconds after the abomination!  They have SEEN the abomination and are following Jesus words; they are fleeing.  

Bottom line? You will NEVER find a time line that fits if you put the rapture in 12:5. Just give up that idea! 

Sorry, wrong timeline that does not fit scripture: the 6th seal begins God's wrath and the Day of the Lord. How could you possibly have the 70th week beginning before the 6th seal?  If you have the 6th seal 3 years in, then what John wrote before the 6th seal must also be a part of the 70th week. Sorry, the martyrs of the 5th seal are church age. 

you are right on the two witnesses; they will show up probably 3.5 days before the AOD. Then the fleeing will be seconds after the AOD. 

You should know this for sure: NO trumpet will ever sound before all 7 seals are opened. Don't even think other wise!

Of course you are free to believe anything.  I have a simple question: why not accept the timeline John gives us? Can you find problems with his timeline?  AH! It is trying to force a rapture in chapter 12! It just won't work! God's wrath will have been ongoing for 3.5 years. SO you have set appointments for the entire body of Christ with God's wrath! Good luck with that!

I believe wrath doesn’t begin until after the 6th seal....as do you.

My timeline C showed 6th seal/Rapture BEFORE trumpets being released.  I edited my Timeline Plan C to make that clear. (Rapture before wrath (trumpets) right at 6th seal. 

I am not putting the Church in God’s wrath. I know the wrath begins after the 6th seal. 

And yes, as you can see, I’m exploring a timeline based on a rapture at 12:5 which is pretty close to the midpoint In my opinion. 

I think I’ve met all the requirements now. 

LA, the only real difference between this timeline and your is that mine places the rapture AFTER peace treaty about 3 years into the week.  Your rapture precedes peace treaty.  

And of course the main reason I put the rapture close to the midpoint is because 12:5 appears to be close to the midpoint. I like that you can’t put a date on this rapture too....”no one will know the day or hour”  and the DOTL will definitely  come suddenly while people are saying peace and safety (3 years after peace plan). 

I don’t expect you to AGREE, but at the very least you could say....”Spock, if the rapture is shown in 12:5, this timeline is brilliant.....you should write a book and get rich over it!”  ?

Edited March 9, 2019 by Spock

[ARGOSY]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but that theory disagrees with Paul's timing of the rapture. HIS timing is before God's wrath begins - at the 6th seal. I think I would rather go with what Paul wrote - after all, HE was the only one to receive revelation on the rapture. 

(John received the Revelation, not Paul).Yes it is the 6th seal where the rapture occurs, you are correct. The book of Revelation contains multiple visions about the tribulation and second coming. The 6th seal is one such vision about the 2nd coming:

 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

My theory agrees with John who in Rev 7 describes this gathered multitude just before that wrath, who have "come out of the great tribulation".

You make an error because you assume Revelation unfolds consecutively while also holding the view that the GT is in Rev 12 and again in Rev 13 which are nearly the middle of Revelation. So you believe there are multiple descriptions of the GT in Revelation, but just don't want to admit it. The 7 seals are one more vision of the events leading up to the second coming as described in the quote above. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by ARGOSY