Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[JoeCanada]

42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

WRONG! It is the end of THEIR time....that is the end of the ancient GREEK empire and it is talking about Antichus. It has nothing to do with our future. Read it in the Amplified bible.

iamlamad,

Until a person has a good grasp of the book of Daniel, they will assume it's all history. 

It has a lot to do with the future. 

The Amplified Bible you say?

Ah yes, the "multiple choice bible". I don't believe that any serious student of scripture places any value on this bible. But hey, if it works for you, by all means, go for it.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are wrong on every point. The seals are not the trumpets and the trumpets are not the vials. There is TIMING you are ignoring, not to mention the very text itself.  Indeed, there are two bad earthquakes, but the last much worse than the first. How could anyone even imagine they are the same? Read the text.

Actually, there are three bad earthquakes.

The Three Earthquakes of Revelation

Some people believe and teach that the the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation all take place concurrently. Others teach that only the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent, and are part of the Seventh Seal. There are many reasons why neither of these things is possible, when all of the other scriptures, particularly the Old Testament prophecies, are taken into account. I will mention just one item here: the three earthquakes of Revelation.

As I show in the blog post The Exodus and the End Times, all the significant events of the Exodus were types and shadows of the Day of the LORD. Therefore, it is noteworthy that three different large earthquakes also took place during the Exodus era. Here are the Exodus-era types, and their Day of the LORD fulfillments:

1) The Exodus, at Mount Sinai: Thick darkness, earthquake, God’s trumpet/shofar sounding. The LORD descended upon Mount Sinai in clouds of smoke; most people cowered away from his Presence. But those who were ready went up into his Presence. Ex. 19:16f.; 20:18

1) 6th Seal: Thick darkness, earthquake, God’s trumpet/shofar sounding. Jesus descends in the clouds; most people are greatly afraid and hide themselves. But those who are ready go up into his Presence. Rev. 6:12-17; 1 Thes. 4:16; Matt. 24:29-30

2) During the Exodus sojourn in the wilderness: Moses and Aaron, after having prophesied and performed similar miracles as the Two Witnesses of Relation 11, were confronted and accused by Korah and others. The LORD then validated their ministry, killing thousands of their adversaries by earthquake, fire and plague. Num. 16; Ex. 7-10

2) 6th Trumpet, Priestly Section: The Two Witnesses prophesy, burn their enemies with fire, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. They are accused and attacked by the Beast and others. God publicly validates their ministry by raising them from the dead; an earthquake then kills thousands. Rev. 11:3-13

3) After the Exodus, in Canaan: Joshua – Yeshua – and the Israelites defeated the many armies gathered together against them on ‘the day the sun stood still.’ “[T]he earth trembled and shook” amidst a great storm (Jasher 89:15), and great hailstones fell from heaven. The Canaanite armies were routed and slaughtered, and their kings were captured alive and “cast into” a cave. Josh. 10

3) 7th Bowl: “[T]hunderings and lightnings…a mighty and great earthquake…great hail from heaven.” Jesus – Yeshua – and the armies of heaven descend to destroy the armies gathered together against them. The Beast and the False Prophet are captured alive, and “cast into” the lake of fire. Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21

All the events of the Exodus which foreshadow events of the End Times were sequential in time. There are no scriptures that prove the events of the End Times will not likewise be sequential. On the contrary, the three examples above show that each of these End Time earthquakes will take place under completely different circumstances.

Addenda: For “those who dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14 (2); 14:6; 17:8), the Seals-Trumpets-Bowls, and likewise the three earthquakes, will occur separately and sequentially over time. But for the ones in the heavenly realms of Everywhen, the Seals-Trumpets-Bowls (and all other events of history) are eternally everywhen. This is the realm in which God dwells, and into which prophets visit during their visions of the future. Because all events – past-present-future – already exist there. (And don’t ask me to explain that!)

In this one sense only are those correct who speak of the Trumpets and Bowls being simultaneous. But for “those who dwell upon the earth” in time, the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls will occur separately and sequentially over a period of many years.

[WilliamL]

On 4/23/2019 at 8:03 PM, Uriah said:

Ok I see that the difference may be that I consider v. 27 referring to Jesus at the one who confirms the covenant and am assuming you do not

Dan 9:27- And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 

(covenant/testament)

Matt 26:28- For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This goes back to Abraham so that all families of the Earth would be blessed. That is how the covenant was strengthened/confirmed.

This is one of a number of views about verse 27, but the grammar of Hebrew text indicates that "the nagyd/commander/leader, the one coming in" is the one who is making (or causing to confirm) the covenant. There are three straight Hiphil verbs (one in verse 26, two in verse 27), connected by a vav consecutive at the beginning of verse 27, that tie these things together. Explained (in excruciating detail) here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

[Montana Marv]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Marv, I think the 200 million will be ANGELS.  It may well be the parable of the tares.

Why then would the Euphrates River need to dry up for them to cross on their way to Armageddon.  These 200 Million kill 1/3 of mankind.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Why then would the Euphrates River need to dry up for them to cross on their way to Armageddon.  These 200 Million kill 1/3 of mankind.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The river drying up comes AFTER the 200 million. It is for a different purpose: armies to gather at Armageddon. Probably armies from the "'stan" countries east of the Euphrates will come.

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is one of a number of views about verse 27, but the grammar of Hebrew text indicates that "the nagyd/commander/leader, the one coming in" is the one who is making (or causing to confirm) the covenant. There are three straight Hiphil verbs (one in verse 26, two in verse 27), connected by a vav consecutive at the beginning of verse 27, that tie these things together. Explained (in excruciating detail) here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

Hi WilliamL

             Thanks for the excruciating info. In another post I mentioned how there are, in key places , certain translation troubles that cause problems. This is one of them.  One thing that the word studies don't show is something known to translators yet almost never addressed. We see this in Hebrew and ancient Greek- an absence of punctuation marks. In this case in Daniel there need to be some excruciating parentheses to keep it minimalistic. Here is what              I mean: Take Dan 9:26 and look at where the subject changes...after the word "himself" the focus turns to other events. So from that point to the end of the verse there should be parentheses because it is a sub topic.

            The same applies to the next verse. After the word "cease" the topic changes again as a continuation of the parenthetical portion of the previous verse. Its just the way some people (or in this case some angels) talk. It isn't "linear" (again).

BTW the same is true in a part of Revelation, which I could point to as well if you like, because without the proper reading it causes impossible outcomes. 

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are Mistaken.  The seals are not the trumpets and the trumpets are not the vials. There is TIMING you are ignoring, not to mention the very text itself.  Indeed, there are two bad earthquakes, but the last much worse than the first. How could anyone even imagine they are the same? Read the text.

Jesus ONLY point in bringing up Noah and Lot was the suddenness of their destruction. Look for the preposition, "FOR." We don't know if all on the earth died the same day it began to rain, but for those that did, they woke up that morning thinking that day would be just like the previous days: but they were so wrong. With Lot, it was even more sudden: the same day. 

This is NO WAY contradicts a 7 year week of judgment.

Hi iamlamad

                    Nah, read it again, my friend. Lot left the city on the same day the fire came down. Noah boarded the ark on the same day the rain came down. Very simple. Jesus said it will be just like this....it isn't going to happen "before" the Day of fiery on the Earth judgment in the future either.

[iamlamad]

On 4/25/2019 at 7:38 PM, Uriah said:

Hi iamlamad

                    Nah, read it again, my friend. Lot left the city on the same day the fire came down. Noah boarded the ark on the same day the rain came down. Very simple. Jesus said it will be just like this....it isn't going to happen "before" the Day of fiery on the Earth judgment in the future either.

Look in Matthew 24, and notice verse 38:  "³⁸ For " Starts with a preposition, showing us what it was about Noah's story that Jesus was bringing out. It was the suddenness of their demise: they were living life to the fullest right up until the water came and they all drowned. In other words, they woke on that morning thinking it would be a day just like yesterday, but they all drowned. It was sudden and with no warning. It was the very same with Jesus talking about Lot: they were living life to the fullest, but in one day they were destroyed. His point in both stories was the suddenness of their demise.  In other words, forget "before" or "after:" that was NOT Jesus point.

When Jesus comes pretrib FOR His church, it will be sudden and without warning. When He comes to the battle of Armageddon, again it will be sudden, with no warning.

I stand by what I said before: seals come first, then the trumpets, and finally the vials. There is TIMING to consider. The trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book - but the book cannot be opened to start the trumpet judgments until all the seals are opened. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 4/25/2019 at 2:21 PM, WilliamL said:

Actually, there are three bad earthquakes.

The Three Earthquakes of Revelation

Some people believe and teach that the the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation all take place concurrently. Others teach that only the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent, and are part of the Seventh Seal. There are many reasons why neither of these things is possible, when all of the other scriptures, particularly the Old Testament prophecies, are taken into account. I will mention just one item here: the three earthquakes of Revelation.

As I show in the blog post The Exodus and the End Times, all the significant events of the Exodus were types and shadows of the Day of the LORD. Therefore, it is noteworthy that three different large earthquakes also took place during the Exodus era. Here are the Exodus-era types, and their Day of the LORD fulfillments:

1) The Exodus, at Mount Sinai: Thick darkness, earthquake, God’s trumpet/shofar sounding. The LORD descended upon Mount Sinai in clouds of smoke; most people cowered away from his Presence. But those who were ready went up into his Presence. Ex. 19:16f.; 20:18

1) 6th Seal: Thick darkness, earthquake, God’s trumpet/shofar sounding. Jesus descends in the clouds; most people are greatly afraid and hide themselves. But those who are ready go up into his Presence. Rev. 6:12-17; 1 Thes. 4:16; Matt. 24:29-30

2) During the Exodus sojourn in the wilderness: Moses and Aaron, after having prophesied and performed similar miracles as the Two Witnesses of Relation 11, were confronted and accused by Korah and others. The LORD then validated their ministry, killing thousands of their adversaries by earthquake, fire and plague. Num. 16; Ex. 7-10

2) 6th Trumpet, Priestly Section: The Two Witnesses prophesy, burn their enemies with fire, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. They are accused and attacked by the Beast and others. God publicly validates their ministry by raising them from the dead; an earthquake then kills thousands. Rev. 11:3-13

3) After the Exodus, in Canaan: Joshua – Yeshua – and the Israelites defeated the many armies gathered together against them on ‘the day the sun stood still.’ “[T]he earth trembled and shook” amidst a great storm (Jasher 89:15), and great hailstones fell from heaven. The Canaanite armies were routed and slaughtered, and their kings were captured alive and “cast into” a cave. Josh. 10

3) 7th Bowl: “[T]hunderings and lightnings…a mighty and great earthquake…great hail from heaven.” Jesus – Yeshua – and the armies of heaven descend to destroy the armies gathered together against them. The Beast and the False Prophet are captured alive, and “cast into” the lake of fire. Rev. 16:17-21; 19:11-21

All the events of the Exodus which foreshadow events of the End Times were sequential in time. There are no scriptures that prove the events of the End Times will not likewise be sequential. On the contrary, the three examples above show that each of these End Time earthquakes will take place under completely different circumstances.

Addenda: For “those who dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14 (2); 14:6; 17:8), the Seals-Trumpets-Bowls, and likewise the three earthquakes, will occur separately and sequentially over time. But for the ones in the heavenly realms of Everywhen, the Seals-Trumpets-Bowls (and all other events of history) are eternally everywhen. This is the realm in which God dwells, and into which prophets visit during their visions of the future. Because all events – past-present-future – already exist there. (And don’t ask me to explain that!)

In this one sense only are those correct who speak of the Trumpets and Bowls being simultaneous. But for “those who dwell upon the earth” in time, the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls will occur separately and sequentially over a period of many years.

I agree: sequential.  however, the earthquake when the two witnesses are raised is the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 4/25/2019 at 12:52 PM, JoeCanada said:

iamlamad,

Until a person has a good grasp of the book of Daniel, they will assume it's all history. 

It has a lot to do with the future. 

The Amplified Bible you say?

Ah yes, the "multiple choice bible". I don't believe that any serious student of scripture places any value on this bible. But hey, if it works for you, by all means, go for it.

Say what you want: the Amplified bible brings out nuances of the Greek that one could only get by studying many of the English translations. 

We were only talking about chapter 8. Of course when Daniel wrote the book, most of it was future. Today the story of Medo-Persia defeating Babylon, then Greece defeating Persia - Finally Rome defeating Greece: all history.  Many believers today think Chapter 11 future begins in verse 36. Just  before that, it is talking about Antiochus.