Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

[JoeCanada]

7 hours ago, douggg said:

Hi Joe, thanks for the question.

Israel living in peace - Ezekiel 38:8-11

Gog attacks

feast on Gog's army - Ezekiel 39:4

Told of the 7 years of burning the remains of Gog's war machine -Ezekiel 39:9-10

Told of burying the dead for 7 months - Ezekiel 39: 12-15

Concluding statement about the Gog/Magog  event - Ezekiel 39:16

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7 years of Daniel 9:27 takes place.  (Coinciding with Ezekiel 39:9-10)

first half

1260 days  - Revelation 11:3  Revelation 12:6

in second half

3 1/2 days - Revelation  11:11-12

42 months - Revelation 11:2  Revelation 13:5

time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14 Daniel 7:25  Daniel 12:7

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Ezekiel 39:17-20  Armageddon feast on kings of the earth armies.   Revelation 19:17-21.

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Jesus returned.  Speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, at the beginning of the millennium.

 

 

Hi dougg,

This is good.....let's keep the iron sharpening the iron!

If the Gog/Magog war is before the final 70th week, then we run into some serious problems when we read Ezekiel.

I'll first refer you to this:

“And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.” — Ezekiel 39:7

This is the only time that the phrase “the LORD, the Holy One in Israel” is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra’el. A similar phrase, “the Holy One of Israel” (qadowsh Yisra’el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

“And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.” — Ezekiel 39:7

This is the only time that the phrase “the LORD, the Holy One in Israel” is used in the whole Bible. It is the Hebrew YHVH qadowsh baYisra’el. A similar phrase, “the Holy One of Israel” (qadowsh Yisra’el), is used thirty-one times in Scripture (e.g., Isaiah 12:6; 43:3; 55:5; 60:9, etc.). But here in Ezekiel, the Lord is not merely the Holy One of Israel; He is actually present in the land and on the ground! While the popular position holds that this passage concludes several years before the return of Jesus, this verse makes this an absolute impossibility.

Hi Joe,

Let's start at a different point.   (I am using the Chabad.org english Tanach)

Ezekiel 36:20   And they entered the nations where they came, and they profaned My Holy Name, inasmuch as it was said of them, 'These are the people of the Lord, and they have come out of His land.'

Ezekiel 39:7   And I will make known My Holy Name in the midst of My people Israel, and I will no longer cause My Holy Name to be profaned, and the nations will know that I, the Lord, am holy in Israel.

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In Ezekiel 36:20, it appears that when the Jews were led captive into the nations, that act of being led captive was in effect the profaning of God's name - because in makes it appear to the nations that He couldn't save them from that happening.

It was seen as disgrace to God's name, because the house of Israel were suppose to be God's people who He had made a covenant with to be their God and they his people.    

In Ezekiel 39:7 God's makes good on what he said back in Ezekiel 36:22-23.

I am not reading "that I, the Lord, am holy in Israel" as God being physically present in Israel.

Instead, "in Israel" would be in similitude, of us being holy in Christ.  We are made holy because of what Christ did for us.  Not that we are physically located in Christ. 

God will be seen as Holy in (what He does in defending) Israel.   

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The language issue, the words you are quoting from the article are transliterations.    The Hebrew for verse 39:7 I have no idea.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Hi Joe,

Let's start at a different point.   (I am using the Chabad.org english Tanach)

Ezekiel 36:20   And they entered the nations where they came, and they profaned My Holy Name, inasmuch as it was said of them, 'These are the people of the Lord, and they have come out of His land.'

Ezekiel 39:7   And I will make known My Holy Name in the midst of My people Israel, and I will no longer cause My Holy Name to be profaned, and the nations will know that I, the Lord, am holy in Israel.

______________________________________________________________________________________

In Ezekiel 36:20, it appears that when the Jews were led captive into the nations, that act of being led captive was in effect the profaning of God's name - because in makes it appear to the nations that He couldn't save them from that happening.

It was seen as disgrace to God's name, because the house of Israel were suppose to be God's people who He had made a covenant with to be their God and they his people.    

In Ezekiel 39:7 God's makes good on what he said back in Ezekiel 39:22-23.

I am not reading "that I, the Lord, am holy in Israel" as God being physically present in Israel.

Instead, "in Israel" would be in similitude, of us being holy in Christ.  We are made holy because of what Christ did for us.  Not that we are physically located in Christ. 

God will be seen as Holy in (what He does in defending) Israel.   

________________________________________________________________________

The language issue, the words you are quoting from the article are transliterations.    The Hebrew for verse 39:7 I have no idea.

 

 

 

Hey Dougg,

Consider this very important detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

 “And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My  Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:22-29)

So they are brought back from captivity,by God,  to a land that has been completely devastated by an earthquake......The mountains flattened, the walls and pathways collapsed (Ezek 38:19-20)........ to then, burn weapons for seven years, and bury their enemies throughout their land for seven months?

They will have to construct a temple almost right away, then they will  have to deal with the antichrist at the mid point of the seven years, and his wrath against them, and they have to flee to the mountains, which are no longer there, when Jerusalem is surrounded by even more enemies, but many stay in Israel only to be slaughtered by the antichrist and his hordes.................

All this while God declares that they will "KNOW that I am the Lord their God"....and " I will not hide My face from them any longer"......."I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel"

I think not!

The Gog/Magog war cannot happen before the 70th week begins. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[douggg]

 

41 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Consider this very important detail in Ezekiel’s account: By the time that Ezekiel’s Gog Magog invasion is defeated, a majority of the people of Israel are described as captives, essentially prisoners of war in the land of their enemies.

Joe, in Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is not that they are captives in those verses.

It is Jesus Himself speaking in those verses, having returned to earth in verse 21. *

In verse 21, Jesus is here on earth - having just executed judgment on the heathen (not on Gog/Magog that was 7 years earlier, but Armageddon) in Ezekiel 39:17-20..

Jesus then starts reflecting, recollecting, back in time in the text, speaking about - the past two thousand years of when the Jews were first taken captive into the nations for having transgressed against him, by rejecting him as the messiah.      And had denied him over the course of that time - to their shame.  

But during the 7 years, they will have turned to Jesus...   And know Him to be the Lord their God, from then on.

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* 21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

That means that Jesus will have returned to earth in that verse, following Armageddon in verses 17-20, here physically to rule over the nations (called the heathen).

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There will be some Jews still in the nations, even to the day Jesus returns.    When Jesus is back here on earth, at the beginning of the millennium, He brings every single one of them back to the land of Israel.    That's what verse 28 is about.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.  ( in the nations)

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by douggg

[WilliamL]

On 8/5/2019 at 1:34 PM, douggg said:

On 8/5/2019 at 10:33 AM, WilliamL said:

It does not fit if you are locked into a 7-year everything happens. That is view founded on the widely-disputed single verse of Daniel 9:27. No other passage of the Bible mentions any 7-year timetable in the End Times.

Yes, I am locked in.   The 7 years are in Revelation 12:6- 12:17.    But it not stated directly as such.   7 years is stated nowhere in the text.

The 7 years in Ezekiel 39 does not say in the text that it is the seven years of Daniel 9:27 either, but it is, by putting together a bunch of other verses and concepts.     I don't feel like going into all of them in this thread, too much material to cover.

You say material, I say presumption

[WilliamL]

On 8/5/2019 at 12:16 PM, dhchristian said:

On 8/5/2019 at 10:50 AM, WilliamL said:

But that army comes during the trumpets, not the bowls. And it is destroyed.

Isaiah 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

After Jesus comes riding on the White Horse, yes, there will be few men left. 

 

Isaiah 24 is not all all speaking about the Armageddon-day battle, but about a much earlier time.

Isaiah 24 21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

 

The heavenly host is punished first, in the beginning of the Trib., when Satan and his angels are cast down. Only "after many days" shall these be punished, after Armageddon, when they are cast into the lake of fire (except for Satan).

So Isaiah 24 is speaking about early on in the End Times that there will be "few men left," not at the end of the End Times, when the earth has been repopulated enough for the vast multitude to gather under Gog to invade Israel. Israel will be a peace then; the events spoken of in Isaiah 24 say nothing of these latter things taking place before that punishment.

 

[douggg]

18 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You say material, I say presumption

Locked in - figuratively, regarding a seven year timeline.

[dhchristian]

24 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

saiah 24 is not all all speaking about the Armageddon-day battle, but about a much earlier time.

Isaiah 24 21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

 

The heavenly host is punished first, in the beginning of the Trib., when Satan and his angels are cast down. Only "after many days" shall these be punished, after Armageddon, when they are cast into the lake of fire (except for Satan).

So Isaiah 24 is speaking about early on in the End Times that there will be "few men left," not at the end of the End Times, when the earth has been repopulated enough for the vast multitude to gather under Gog to invade Israel. Israel will be a peace then; the events spoken of in Isaiah 24 say nothing of these latter things taking place before that punishment.

Isaiah 24 is speaking of the day of the LORD, which is when Jesus comes riding on the White horse. The many days refers to the millennium...

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6

Edited August 8, 2019 by dhchristian

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Isaiah 24 is speaking of the day of the LORD, which is when Jesus comes riding on the White horse. The many days refers to the millennium...

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6

The Day of the Lord is not when Jesus returns at the Second Coming. Its the day he opens the first 6 Seals back to back to back in a flash. That is the Wrath of God/The Lamb and its found quoted as such in Rev. 6 where those people call it the Wrath of the Lamb....thus God. Its the same event mentioned in Joel 2. It lasts from the first Seals being opened until the 7th Vial as per the Wrath. The DOTL may last through the 1000 year reign also. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

The Day of the Lord is not when Jesus returns at the Second Coming. Its the day he opens the first 6 Seals back to back to back in a flash. That is the Wrath of God/The Lamb and its found quoted as such in Rev. 6 where those people call it the Wrath of the Lamb....thus God. Its the same event mentioned in Joel 2. It lasts from the first Seals being opened until the 7th Vial as per the Wrath. The DOTL may last through the 1000 year reign also. 

The day of the Lord is a say of thunder, Lightnings, great hailstones,great earthquakes, and the wrath of God on all wickedness. It begins with Armageddon. The day of Christ and the Wrath of the Lamb is either pre 7 years, if you are a pretribber, or in the middle of the final week if you are prewrather like myself.