The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[Heleadethme]

On 7/12/2020 at 5:19 AM, Sister said:

imalamad

You read it yourself. 

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

If we, God's people don't come out of Babylon, then what are we going to receive?

 

I don't want those plagues, and nor do I want you or anyone to receive them, which is why I am repeating myself over and over what the Lord has warned us.

Come out of her.  Understand the mystery.  The material things we keep acquiring, to make our lives more comfortable.  Sometimes we don't need anything, but we go looking for something to spend our money on.  Shop around, see what attracts us, then buy it.  We are all guilty, and we all do it at some time.  This to God is sin.  It's for self pleasure.  The world are drunk on doing this, and sometimes we get snared also.  There are many Christians who care for all the nice things in this world.  We should be doing something better with our money and our time.  And it's not only buying, it's going to events for entertainment. Getting caught up in the world in anything that is popular.  We buy this entertainment. Whatever is popular in the world is not popular with God.  Do you talk about sports?  do you have your hero's?  Well it's time to come out of her, because all your hero's have been corrupted also, and you don't know what they did to get there, or what they sold?  What about your favourite bands?  Does not the world love them and treat them like gods?   What did they do to get there, and who rewarded them for their efforts?  All are making money, and merchandise of us.  It goes on and on.  The movies, the cinemas, the outtings, the travel, we all enjoy for personal gratification.  We are all guilty.  This is Babylon, and she is coming down. 

Read Rev 18.  There will be no stage for glory anymore and slowly all that we have been used to will be taken away.  God is going to make sure of that when he puts it into the 10 kings hearts to strip the harlot bare, and change her system by taking it all away from us.  All will be serving this beast, and the nice things - God will make sure they are not available anymore.  Men will wail.  You watch.  There won't be so many choices anymore, all the manufacturers will disappear one by one until there's only a few left and all will be wearing the same plain clothes from the same stores, with the same bare necessities.  None will want to throw out what they have, because they cannot get again.  They will hold on tight to all their possessions.  All the adds will go, and men will be turned into slaves working just to keep a roof over their heads, and for food on the table.  This is what Satan gives you in the end, once he's got you.  He will take it all back because it belongs to him, but by then it's too late.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont' disagree at all with what you are saying Sister.....how Babylon is speaking of the world and flesh, and an excellent reminder that I need right now.....how we must not be enamoured with her baubles, but come out of her, etc.    But ALSO let's consider whether prophecy is saying more than one thing....it's speaking in spirit and not confined to saying one thing, or speaking about only one layer of truth, per se.  When Israel was taken captive by Babylon and ruled over by the king of Babylon, in a spiritual sense it is saying in essence that Israel BECAME Babylon.  Same with the church, when the church is taken captive by the world and worldliness and a worldly gospel, and functions according to the world and flesh instead of the way of Christ and simplicity of the gospel, she in effect becomes Babylon.  It's one reason why the mother of harlots is a mystery.  Israel is the head of nations.....the church likewise, since Israel is our ensample (type/shadow)....either the people of God lead the world in the way of Christ or lead the world in the way of the flesh.  Spiritually speaking Babylon is sort of the result of what once was God's being turned on it's head and becoming like the world.  It's the corrupted form of both Judaism and Christianity.  Notice the colours are the colours of both the temple priesthood as well as the colours of Rome.  Is it possible that both 'Christianity' and Judaism are joining forces to lead the world astray to worship a false saviour.  A common feature of both Babylon and ancient Rome is that they allowed its multi-cultural citizens to keep their own religions as long as they also worshiped the image of Babylon and worshiped Caesar.  The openly stated purpose of the Temple Institute is that it will serve to unite all faiths of the world.  And Rome is heavily involved with Jerusalem...she literally owns a lot of real estate there, and is actively engaged in ecumenicalism of uniting all religions.  Anyway that's what I have to put in the pot here....maybe something to think about.

[Sister]

Heleadethme

 

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

I dont' disagree at all with what you are saying Sister.....how Babylon is speaking of the world and flesh, and an excellent reminder that I need right now.....how we must not be enamoured with her baubles, but come out of her, etc.   

Yes, thank you.  I need to constantly remind myself also.

 

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

But ALSO let's consider whether prophecy is saying more than one thing....it's speaking in spirit and not confined to saying one thing, or speaking about only one layer of truth, per se.  When Israel was taken captive by Babylon and ruled over by the king of Babylon, in a spiritual sense it is saying in essence that Israel BECAME Babylon. 

God told Israel to serve Babylon. He had put them under that yoke.  The ones that didn't want to obey God's orders were the bad figs and sent into Assyria.  The good figs stayed in Babylon and obeyed God.

Daniel for example was in Babylon, working for Babylon, but was serving God.  He didn't compromise his faith, or his righteousness.  He was an honest worker and served in his position blamelessly.  We are required to do the same.  To come out of Babylon is to not do the wickedness they do, ....although we can't physically come out of her, we can spiritually, because we have been put under the same yoke as Israel was until Christ comes.  To be an honest worker in a wicked environment is not an easy thing to do, but it's where we do our training, learning not to touch the unclean thing.  Being blameless.  Ye are the salt of the earth.

So the bad figs only became one with Babylon, spiritually, even though they were sent to Assyria. 

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Same with the church, when the church is taken captive by the world and worldliness and a worldly gospel, and functions according to the world and flesh instead of the way of Christ and simplicity of the gospel, she in effect becomes Babylon.  It's one reason why the mother of harlots is a mystery.  Israel is the head of nations.....the church likewise, since Israel is our ensample (type/shadow)....

Yes, exactly, when the church is taken captive by the world, she spiritually serves Babylon, and becomes a citizen of Babylon.

I wouldn't say Israel is the head of the nations.  She has others above her, and Israel is also serving Babylon.  She likes the nice things also.

A treaty was made for Israel (the Balfour declaration) with the British empire.  Israel were under contract to dwell in their homeland only under certain conditions.  The one that made that contract has helped rebuild her, but can also turn against her, and accuse her of breaking that contract.  I see it as a set up from the start.  The land is currently on loan, until Christ returns and straightens things out there.  Satan is always dangling a carrot in front of us.  Unless it comes from Christ, whatever is given from Satan always looks good, but he has other plans.  He's the master deceiver after all.  He always takes back what he has given.  When Christ gives that land back to them, it's for real.  None can take it off them again.

I know many think that Israel is Babylon, the mother of harlots, because the Jews own so much, but the mother of harlots, is 'the abominations of the earth'.  We can't blame Israel for all our lusts and desires for what this world can provide.  It's the spirit of the world that is responsible,  not the spirit of Israel.  Israel have that spirit of the world also.  They want their nice things as well.  We all have ourselves to blame, individually, and people have lusted after money and material things since the beginning.  Merchants started trading between nations and peoples after Babel fell.  Goods always came by the sea.  That spirit has been around for a long time, even longer than Israel. 

This is the message I am trying to get across, Babylon is not any particular city on this earth, but all the kingdoms and nations of the earth come under one great big city, and that's Satan's city, the city of darkness.  All these kingdoms and nations and peoples are serving him in his city by loving things of the world, his world.

Yes, what you said about Israel being the shadow of things to come is our example of what happened in the past to them, can also happen to us.  We can go back into captivity if we are not keeping our temple clean.

3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Spiritually speaking Babylon is sort of the result of what once was God's being turned on it's head and becoming like the world.  It's the corrupted form of both Judaism and Christianity. 

God has order in heaven.  He has his chief angels, and angels under them, and angels under them again and so forth.  God's government works like clock-work.  It is precise, well organised, and all the angels do their job accordingly so everything can work in harmony.  Satan has copied God's government and used that system on earth, but he's corrupted his own government within that same structure.  He rewards the evil with high positions, and punishes them that do good.  From the top all the way to the bottom is corrupted.  Since Adam fell, man has always had to carry the burden of Satan's governing system.  It's not a fair and just system, and we have never had a good honest system of governing on this earth ever.  We were born into it, and were never free from this burden.  The churches have their own governing system as well, but that governing system is ruled over by a higher power, who allows them to set up and exist.  God knows all this, and knows there are honest people who genuinely have a love for the truth within that worldly church system, but can't see who controls it, nor who is corrupting it.  He knows the heart of each one in there, and only his spirit can draw them to have their eyes opened, and see the things that are not right.  There is a separation going on right now, and we have all the letters to the seven churches to remind us that things are not quite what they seem.

3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

1.Notice the colours are the colours of both the temple priesthood as well as the colours of Rome.  2.Is it possible that both 'Christianity' and Judaism are joining forces to lead the world astray to worship a false saviour. 

1. No I didn't notice that.

2. Yes possible, but the majority of the world are not into either of these two groups.

 

The FP who is that false saviour of the world will come from two angles, spiritual and secular. (hence the two horns on the lamb in Rev 13)

The secular world I don't think are interested in spiritual things, but concerned with what can benefit them and make them financially secure in this world.  They also want to see justice, and the wicked put away. They want to feel safe, and not feel robbed or lied to. I think this FP will impress them with that and introduce new laws to make them feel that there's someone fighting for them.  He will also do exploits, bringing down some big names and reveal many schemes that have gone on.  That's the devils way, use then expose, and then throw away. He's laughing at them all for trusting him. 

The spiritual world are looking for guidance also, and many will be fooled because they havn't been reading the scriptures for themselves, but have depended on their church leaders to give them direction.  On the other hand, there are many pastors that know what's coming, and will warn the flock, but who even knows if the churches will be in operation then?  Even the Roman church?  Didn't God say he was going to destroy all their pastures?  I think this is before the mark of the beast comes.  What most of the churches are preaching now is what has already caused the damage, because error leads into a ditch.  It gives false security, and many think they won't even be here during the trib, so why worry?  Jesus will just whisk them away from it all.

 

[Sister]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I give up.

iamlamad

I am using critical thinking here.  From everything that's written, is how we form our doctrine.  It's obvious we interpret differently.

Everything that you interpret has to fit into the doctrine you hold to.  You believe in a rapture before the tribulation, I don't see that, and never have.  You believe that those saints are in heaven already when Jesus comes out to battle those nations, I don't see that.  I showed you tons of scripture showing that Jesus comes out of heaven with his angels, then gathers his elect.

I showed you also what those voices were that John 'heard', but didn't 'see' were not the saints, but their prayers coming up before throne which is what he 'heard'.

It doesn't matter that you don't agree with me, because I am not here to make friends or enemies, but here to give my view, just like everyone does.  I could be wrong in some things, I may not be.  I know that everyone has their different views and we are not all in unity with the truth as there is so much division.  When Jesus comes, he will straighten everything out and whatever we said that was wrong will be counted as dung.

I want to answer everything that you said, but there is so much to answer and to get through it becomes overwhelming and time consuming.

Just remember that this is not a competition who knows the most, but it is a quest for the truth.  If we are wrong in something and we have been proven to be wrong, then we should take it as a blessing that the Lord has showed us and take it with humility.  As new information comes to light, things just only get clearer.  So long then.  I wanted to also discuss the 144,000 with you and who they are exactly, but I'm sure we will be butting heads with that also.  Never mind, but if the Lord permit, we can go there another time.

It's been good discussing these things with you overall.  I know you are always up for a good fight.  Well done, you have only made me go into the scriptures even more and go over things again.  You have helped me more than you know.

 

 

[The Light]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No problem! Just because we see these two words together: "great" and "tribulation" does not mean they all have to be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.

Yeah, that would not make much sense would it. It's not very likely that the great tribulation is the great tribulation. It makes much more sense to cast this reasoning aside especially when you consider the timing of Matthew 24 fits perfectly with the timing of the 5th seal, which fits perfectly with the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which fits perfectly with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which fits perfectly with the great multitude, and all these things fit perfectly with the coming of great tribulation of Rev 14 and the coming of Jesus in Rev 14. Which of course fits perfectly with the wrath of God beginning at the 7th seal with fits perfectly with those being cast into the wrath of God at the end of Rev 14.

Yes, lets cast aside all this scriptural evidence that lines up perfectly and get out our sledge hammer and start pounding square pegs into round holes. Let's dump common sense and let our imagination run wild. I'm just glad you were able to get that imagination going cause you were in a tough spot.

Quote

In this case, chapter 7, it is the entire church age. These people came out of the world, one by one, the great, 2000 years of tribulation, by hearing the gospel, accepting it, and becoming born again.  (John is not telling us how they got from earth to heaven suddenly. He is telling us how they got added to this group. It was one by one, over time and continually, to keep with the TENSE of the Greek verb.)

Oh boy, we get to play the TENSE game. This should  fit perfectly into your arsenal of imagination.

With all this imagination running wild, and incorrect timing of everything, I am having a hard time processing how it is possible that you have somehow stumbled onto the fact that there will be a pretribulation rapture.

Edited July 15, 2020 by The Light

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

I am using critical thinking here.  From everything that's written, is how we form our doctrine.  It's obvious we interpret differently.

Everything that you interpret has to fit into the doctrine you hold to.  You believe in a rapture before the tribulation, I don't see that, and never have.  You believe that those saints are in heaven already when Jesus comes out to battle those nations, I don't see that.  I showed you tons of scripture showing that Jesus comes out of heaven with his angels, then gathers his elect.

I showed you also what those voices were that John 'heard', but didn't 'see' were not the saints, but their prayers coming up before throne which is what he 'heard'.

It doesn't matter that you don't agree with me, because I am not here to make friends or enemies, but here to give my view, just like everyone does.  I could be wrong in some things, I may not be.  I know that everyone has their different views and we are not all in unity with the truth as there is so much division.  When Jesus comes, he will straighten everything out and whatever we said that was wrong will be counted as dung.

I want to answer everything that you said, but there is so much to answer and to get through it becomes overwhelming and time consuming.

Just remember that this is not a competition who knows the most, but it is a quest for the truth.  If we are wrong in something and we have been proven to be wrong, then we should take it as a blessing that the Lord has showed us and take it with humility.  As new information comes to light, things just only get clearer.  So long then.  I wanted to also discuss the 144,000 with you and who they are exactly, but I'm sure we will be butting heads with that also.  Never mind, but if the Lord permit, we can go there another time.

It's been good discussing these things with you overall.  I know you are always up for a good fight.  Well done, you have only made me go into the scriptures even more and go over things again.  You have helped me more than you know.

I have been showing you that your thinking is anything BUT "critical." First, you ignore every concept of time. Second, you pull verses out of their context. How can anyone hope to have truth when these two rules are broken. I could add: third, you ignore the combined knowledge passed down through generations in commentaries. For example: 

 

Barnes notes: I heard a great voice of much people in heaven - The voice of the worshippers before the throne.  The Hebrew phrase - הללוּ יה haleluw Yah "Hallelujah" - occurs often in the Old Testament. It means, properly, "Praise Yahweh," or "Praise the Lord." The occasion on which it is introduced here is very appropriate. It is uttered by the inhabitants of heaven, in the immediate presence of God himself, and in view of the final overthrow of the enemies of the church, and the triumph of the gospel. In such circumstances it was fit that heaven should render praise, and that a song of thanksgiving should be uttered in which all holy beings could unite.

 

J F B commentary:  . The Church's Thanksgiving in Heaven for the Judgment on the Harlot. 

there is a song of praise in heaven to God: . The great manifestation of God's power in destroying Babylon calls forth a great voice of praise in heaven. .Revelation 19:1-5 God is praised in heaven for judging the great whore, and avenging the blood of his saints.

 

Unknown commentary:I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven
John heard a similar voice (or noise) from heaven when the 144,000 redeemed of Israel learned the new song (Rev. Rev. 14:2-3+). There, the voice (or noise) was not explicitly identified as a multitude, but mention was made of numerous harps so it is probably a similar heavenly multitude in both scenes. The voices are of all those in heaven including: (1) the voices of the Church, having been raptured before the Tribulation, (2) the voices of the Tribulation saints, many of whom were martyred (Rev. Rev. 6:9+; Rev. 7:14+; Rev. 12:11+; Rev. 13:7+, Rev. 13:15+; Rev. 15:2+; Rev. 16:6+; Rev. 20:4+), and (3) the voices of various ranks of angels. They sing in unison as one mighty, thunderous voice (Rev. Rev. 19:6+).  The great multitude, who came out of the Great Tribulation, attributed salvation to both God and the Lamb 

 Commentary Critical  THE CHURCH'S THANKSGIVING IN HEAVEN FOR THE JUDGMENT ON THE HARLOT. 
there is a song of praise in heaven to God:

 Unknown commentary  John reports that he heard what seemed to be a great multitude in heaven crying out with a loud voice. Heaven is not a sparsely populated place, as some may think. It is highly populated with heavenly beings and redeemed human beings (Revelation 7:9). Together, the members of this massive throng shout, "hallelujah!" meaning "praise the Lord!" These praises are sung after describing the fall of Babylon (Revelation 17—18), and just before John's vision of the second coming of Christ (Revelation 19:11).

  Adam Clarke Commentary:  I heard a great voice of much people in heaven - The idolatrous city being destroyed, and the blood of the martyred saints being avenged, there is a universal joy among the redeemed of the Lord, which they commence with the word יה הללו Hallelu,

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
I heard a great voice of much people in heaven - The voice of the worshippers before the throne.

Thomas Coke Commentary on the Holy Bible
Revelation 19:1.—  This excellent hymn of praise, sung by the united voices of angels and saints, the whole assembly of heaven,

Expository Notes with Practical Observations on the New Testament
Note here, That the first which sing this song of thanksgiving for Babylon's destruction are glorified saints, called here much people in heaven;

Justin Edwards' Family Bible New Testament
The apostle hears the multitude of the heavenly hosts rejoicing over the fall of Babylon

Hawker's Poor Man's Commentary This Chapter opens with an Account of the Joy in Heaven, in the View of the Lord's Triumphs over Antichrist upon Earth. The Church in Heaven celebrates Christ's Marriage

Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable This first song praises God for judging the harlot. After John received the revelation about the destruction of commercial Babylon, he evidently heard another angelic chorus singing loudly in heaven

Schaff's Popular Commentary on the New Testament Revelation 19:1. The heavenly hosts are the first to sing. Their keynote is Hallelujah

E.M. Zerr's Commentary on Selected Books of the New Testament For several verses the vision will show the heavenly hosts rejoicing together over the victory that has been won over Babylon

As you can see, there is agreement among many commentaries that the people are in heaven. I wonder, did you forget about the great crowd seen in heaven in chapter 7? Perhaps you believe God kicked them back to earth?

 

 I heard a great voice of much people in heaven  How did they get there? When did they get there?

 Rev. 7:⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 My point: John was in heaven: He heard them in heaven. They are IN heaven. Most of them arrived in heaven in chapter 7, before any part of the 70th week. 

Maybe you just don't know. Please, allow me to assist you: 

The church age, the "beginning of sorrows" starts at the first seal and goes to the 5th seal martyrs of the church age
The Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal and continues on for at least chapter 19 and Christ's coming. 
The 70th week begins at the 7th seal (chapter 8) and continues on to the 7th vial in chapter 16.
Wrath begins at the 6th seal and the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord
The book with 7 seals is more important than the seals sealing the book. God's goal was to get the book opened.
...There is writing INSIDE the book: it is what is INSIDE the book that will get Satan dethroned. 
...Once the 7th seal is opened, then the BOOK is opened: so what we read about the trumpets are what is written inside the book.

Rules: events of the church age cannot be switched with events of the Day of the Lord or of the 70th week.
Events of the Day of the Lord or the 70th week cannot be switched with events from the church age.
Satan's wrath cannot be separated from God's wrath for they happen simultaneously or concurrently: at the same time.
It is impossible that anything written INSIDE the book - such as any trumpet judgment - happen simultaneous with any seal. The book cannot be ...opened until all 7 seals are opened first. 
The trumpets sound in the first half of the week; the vials are poured out late in the second half of the week. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that any bowl ...be poured out with any trumpet sounding and impossible that any trumpet sounds with any bowl: they are separate events happened with TIME ...between them
There is TIMING in Revelation: John walks the reader straight through TIME: early church age through the church age, then through the Day of the ...Lord and the 70th week, then through the millennium, and on into eternity. It is impossible that something earlier in time match something later in ...time: John does NOT WARP TIME. (But there are some parentheses.) In other words, if someone suggests the 7th trumpet sounds with the 6th seal, ...we can automatically KNOW that is bogus, for it is warping TIME.

Everything that you interpret has to fit into the doctrine you hold to. No, that is the way yours works. My doctrine comes right from the pages of the bible, without any kind of rearranging. In other words, I follow the rules above. I don't write impossible things. For example, I would never suggest that something in chapter 19 comes from a previous chapter. I have discovered, you don't follow the rules. Perhaps you don't have any.  In your mind, anything in any chapter can match with anything in any other chapter if they sound the same. Your theories will be proven wrong because you ignore TIME. 

You believe in a rapture before the tribulation, I don't see that, and never have.  You don't believe Paul. You put more emphasis on Matthew than on Paul, when PAUL is the only writer of the NT to receive revelation of the rapture of the church. Your theory will be proven wrong.

You believe that those saints are in heaven already  Not only do I believe that, it is WRITTEN: a GREAT crowd, too large to number, arrived in heaven in chapter 7, before any part of the 70th week of Daniel. Then the 144,000 were seen in heaven just after the midpoint of the week. I believe that BECAUSE it is written. 

I showed you tons of scripture showing that Jesus comes out of heaven with his angels, then gathers his elect.  And I have shown you over and over that that gathering cannot POSSIBLY be Paul's rapture. But, you are free to believe what you will. All I am saying is, that theory will be proven wrong. There is no proof anywhere that that gathering is Paul's rapture, and there is written proof it cannot be Paul's rapture: first TIME. Second, WHERE the gathering takes place: both prove this gathering after the GT cannot be Paul's rapture. Then the great crowd too large to number is added proof. 

I showed you also what those voices were that John 'heard', but didn't 'see' were not the saints, but their prayers coming up before throne I have shown you multiple commentaries that disagree with you. I have shown you that a great crowd, too large to number, arrived in heaven some 7 plus years BEFORE chapter 19. It would be silly to think God sent them back to earth as if He made a mistake in bringing them up to heaven. 

It doesn't matter that you don't agree with me, because I am not here to make friends or enemies, but here to give my view,  Yes, we all give "our view."  I tend to disagree with the rest: this is a public forum and we all must strive to teach TRUTH. We will certainly be held responsible for teaching error. It seems, everyone on these threads is here to give their views, and to "correct" everyone else's view - show by scripture why their view is the correct view. Some are very belligerent. I hope I am not. 

this is not a competition who knows the most, but it is a quest for the truth  Finally! We Agree on something! Hallelujah! Be Blessed, Sister. And PLEASE try to consider TIME in Revelation?

[Heleadethme]

18 hours ago, Sister said:

God told Israel to serve Babylon. He had put them under that yoke.  The ones that didn't want to obey God's orders were the bad figs and sent into Assyria.  The good figs stayed in Babylon and obeyed God.

Daniel for example was in Babylon, working for Babylon, but was serving God.  He didn't compromise his faith, or his righteousness.  He was an honest worker and served in his position blamelessly.  We are required to do the same.  To come out of Babylon is to not do the wickedness they do, ....although we can't physically come out of her, we can spiritually, because we have been put under the same yoke as Israel was until Christ comes.  To be an honest worker in a wicked environment is not an easy thing to do, but it's where we do our training, learning not to touch the unclean thing.  Being blameless.  Ye are the salt of the earth.

So the bad figs only became one with Babylon, spiritually, even though they were sent to Assyria. 

I believe the figs is another layer of truth, making another point.  The bad figs were destroyed and exiled by Babylon...it was she that destroyed them and made them 'fall away'.   But the good figs spiritually survive the conquest of Babylon and do come out of her at the appointed time, when Babylon herself is judged.

okay, I'll do my best to paint the picture here.  In the book of proverbs there is a contrast made between the faithful wife as opposed to the strange woman and her house.   Mystery Babylon represents the strange woman and being captivated by her.   She has many false shepherds, also spoken of in scripture...they eat the sheep, exploit them for their own gain...ambition, power, money etc.  God saying He will take the sheep out of their teeth that they will not feed themselves of the sheep any more.  But the false harlot church allures and traps souls of men.  She is not faithful to her one Husband, but is apostate, engaged in spiritual adultery with many "husbands".  False prophets of Baal....halting between two opinions, trying to serve both God and idols at the same time.  Trying to be a citizen of the world and heavenly kingdom at the same time.  Whereas Jesus said we can't serve two masters and that love of money is the root of all evil.

Remember at the start of His ministry He drove out the money-changers from the Temple and charged them with making His Father's house a den of thieves and house of merchandise.  And He did this again at the END of His ministry.  This is why Babylon is so rich.....she makes millions off of selling her wares.....selling her version of the truth which is lies and mixture of partial truths and false comforts.  TV and radio ministries, worship CD's, conferences, books, speaking engagements, donations etc....she has a zillion dollar economy going on in the last days...she has made herself rich....fattening herself for the time of slaughter. (James 5...he is talking prophetically to those IN the church).  Whereas God said to buy the truth (pay a price to obtain it) but SELL IT NOT.  The false counterfeit church, Babylon, trades and traffics in her false messages and merrymaking and entertainments, making merchandise of the people.  No wonder all her "merchants" will stand afar off and be aghast when she is judged, when the Beast turns on her....their prosperous livelihood is finished.

This is just one  layer of the truth (as far as I'm understanding it)....I don't believe we are wrong to understand Babylon as being the kingdoms and systems of the world as well.  It is just the Lord is talking about two things at the same time.  ("One thing he has spoken, two things have I heard.")  The Mother of Harlots rides the Beast....kingdoms and systems of the world....she is one with it, and allures souls to do the same, so to speak, so she represents the world and its allurements as well.

[Heleadethme]

18 hours ago, Sister said:

Yes, exactly, when the church is taken captive by the world, she spiritually serves Babylon, and becomes a citizen of Babylon.

I wouldn't say Israel is the head of the nations.  She has others above her, and Israel is also serving Babylon.  She likes the nice things also.

A treaty was made for Israel (the Balfour declaration) with the British empire.  Israel were under contract to dwell in their homeland only under certain conditions.  The one that made that contract has helped rebuild her, but can also turn against her, and accuse her of breaking that contract.  I see it as a set up from the start.  The land is currently on loan, until Christ returns and straightens things out there.  Satan is always dangling a carrot in front of us.  Unless it comes from Christ, whatever is given from Satan always looks good, but he has other plans.  He's the master deceiver after all.  He always takes back what he has given.  When Christ gives that land back to them, it's for real.  None can take it off them again.

I know many think that Israel is Babylon, the mother of harlots, because the Jews own so much, but the mother of harlots, is 'the abominations of the earth'.  We can't blame Israel for all our lusts and desires for what this world can provide.  It's the spirit of the world that is responsible,  not the spirit of Israel.  Israel have that spirit of the world also.  They want their nice things as well.  We all have ourselves to blame, individually, and people have lusted after money and material things since the beginning.  Merchants started trading between nations and peoples after Babel fell.  Goods always came by the sea.  That spirit has been around for a long time, even longer than Israel. 

This is the message I am trying to get across, Babylon is not any particular city on this earth, but all the kingdoms and nations of the earth come under one great big city, and that's Satan's city, the city of darkness.  All these kingdoms and nations and peoples are serving him in his city by loving things of the world, his world.

Yes, what you said about Israel being the shadow of things to come is our example of what happened in the past to them, can also happen to us.  We can go back into captivity if we are not keeping our temple clean.

It's not about blaming anyone but just looking at what prophecy is saying how things will be.  I'm not judging anyone....God is the righteous judge of every soul, not me.  I was bowed down with grief when the Lord started showing me how Israel will be involved in these things.  It's just a sad truth which includes the church just as much,  that when what was once God's gets turned on its head and becomes apostate the end result is worse than if it never belonged to God in the first place.  The Lord is sending a strong delusion that will overtake ALL in general who have received not a love of the truth.  And that includes the whole world, including the Jews, the people of Israel who don't know and receive and follow their true Messiah, Jesus/Yeshua.  

Note the colours......the scarlet and purple are representative of both the Roman Catholic Church today as well as temple worship of Judaism:

Exo 25:4

And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,

Exo 26:1

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them.

Exo 26:31

And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:

Exo 26:36

And thou shalt make an hanging for the door of the tent, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework.

Exo 27:16

And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: and their pillars shall be four, and their sockets four.

Exo 28:5

And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.

Exo 28:6

And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

I want to include here a warning, that in the spirit I experienced the "pull" of the strong delusion associated with the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem....like a counterfeit holy spirit, it feels heavenly but is completely deceptive.   We need to guard our hearts against idolatry of every kind, including and especially anything to do with this Temple.  Remember that unbelieving Israel has nothing that we need....on the contrary we have the gospel that she needs, and that no man comes to the Father but by the Son of God, Jesus/Yeshua.  There is NO OTHER NAME under heaven by which man can be saved.  I believe Rome (apostate Christianity) will be heavily involved with the Temple too, she is very busy furthering the lie of ecumenicalism, that all religions lead to God.  And she is very busy alluring the compromised protestant evangelical churches back into her embrace.  We need to remember Jesus' warning:  

Mat 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Sister]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

okay, I'll do my best to paint the picture here.  In the book of proverbs there is a contrast made between the faithful wife as opposed to the strange woman and her house.   Mystery Babylon represents the strange woman and being captivated by her.   She has many false shepherds, also spoken of in scripture...they eat the sheep, exploit them for their own gain...ambition, power, money etc.  God saying He will take the sheep out of their teeth that they will not feed themselves of the sheep any more.  But the false harlot church allures and traps souls of men.  She is not faithful to her one Husband, but is apostate, engaged in spiritual adultery with many "husbands".  False prophets of Baal....halting between two opinions, trying to serve both God and idols at the same time.  Trying to be a citizen of the world and heavenly kingdom at the same time.  Whereas Jesus said we can't serve two masters and that love of money is the root of all evil.

Hello again Heleadethme

Yes!  I made that connection also from proverbs.  It's speaking of Mystery Babylon.  The temptress.

Yes, all is found in her.  She is all the abominations of the earth.  That's great, you can see that.

 

Isaiah 24:2   And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

Isaiah 24:3   The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

Isaiah 24:4   The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

Isaiah 24:5   The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 24:6   Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 24:7   The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

Isaiah 24:8   The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.

Isaiah 24:9   They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

Isaiah 24:10   The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

Isaiah 24:11   There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

Isaiah 24:12   In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

Isaiah 24:13   When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.

Isaiah 24:14   They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

Isaiah 24:15   Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.

Isaiah 24:16   From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.

Isaiah 24:17   Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

Isaiah 24:18   And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

Isaiah 24:19   The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Isaiah 24:20   The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Isaiah 24:21   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Isaiah 24:22   And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah 24:23   Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

[Sister]

3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

I want to include here a warning, that in the spirit I experienced the "pull" of the strong delusion associated with the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem....like a counterfeit holy spirit, it feels heavenly but is completely deceptive.   We need to guard our hearts against idolatry of every kind, including and especially anything to do with this Temple.  Remember that unbelieving Israel has nothing that we need....on the contrary we have the gospel that she needs, and that no man comes to the Father but by the Son of God, Jesus/Yeshua.  There is NO OTHER NAME under heaven by which man can be saved.  I believe Rome (apostate Christianity) will be heavily involved with the Temple too, she is very busy furthering the lie of ecumenicalism, that all religions lead to God.  And she is very busy alluring the compromised protestant evangelical churches back into her embrace.  We need to remember Jesus' warning:  

Yes this temple has nothing to do with God, and I am also aware that Israel has sinned greatly against the Lord.  You only have to read the old testament prophesies to see how angry God is, as it's written through out in many books and many chapters and seems to be the main theme after all that God did for them.  However, when I said that Jerusalem is not Babylon the Great, I didn't mean that you were implying it, but that many say she is Babylon the great.  If we think that, then we think that Babylon the Great has nothing to do with us, when it does, because it involves everybody, all of us in our every day to day lives, and it doesn't just consist of the spiritual side of it, which is only one aspect, but the material world mainly, and that's what the world loves, even Christians and churches, and non believers etc. All love the dollar and what it can buy.

As for the Roman church, go to her roots, and her foundations, and then go to all her branches, ..the churches that separated from her, but came out of her and all leads to deception in the end.  I am not influenced by any church, because I belong to none.  Whatever they say to do does not affect me personally, and like I said before, the damage is already done.  The doctrine(s) are not the same one I found when searching for the truth.  Their doctrines never change, it stays the same.  When new things come to light, they don't budge and say we made a mistake, we better fix this.  NO.  It never happens.  There is never any room for that.  I made lots of mistakes when searching for the truth.  When new evidence proved that I was wrong in something, I had to change my perspective, and I could do that because I had no church to protect.  I never made a deal that I had to uphold all that they teach, even if I didn't understand it, because I was never there in the first place.  I am not inside the churches looking out, but outside looking in.  I look in when I have conversations with people from all denominations.  I think that many  have missed out on so much that has been revealed to us.  I trust Jesus to lead me, and his apostles and his prophets.  That's my church, and my church warned me already of the things to come, and how crazy and deceptive things are going get.  So about the Roman church, yes it will affect you if you are in it, and if you trust you church leaders with your soul, and not what's written, then yes, it's not going to go well.  Any church or person that is not in the truth will support anything that is going to lead to destruction.

I get what you are saying though sister.  You have good insight.

 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

On 7/15/2020 at 10:52 AM, Sister said:

Yes!  I made that connection also from proverbs.  It's speaking of Mystery Babylon.  The temptress.

Yes, all is found in her.  She is all the abominations of the earth.  That's great, you can see that.

 

Bless you Sister, sorry I am so slow to reply these days.  I am seeing the strange woman as being the deceitful counterfeit to the true and faithful wife.    She is always and has always been trying to allure the saints into her false embrace.....compromise.  

It’s not easy when the mind is on one track to switch over to another track, but I do believe Babylon is talking about the kingdoms of the world, but at the same time, on another level in spirit, another track so to speak, it is also talking in spirit about the apostate church and apostate Israel.  Remember that Jerusalem and Israel in scripture are a type/shadow/ensample of the coming church/ekklesia.  As Israel went so goes the church….Israel sadly fell away from the Lord and was judged, the church is also likewise falling away.  Actually her falling away and the intrusion and captivity of “mystery Babylon” (counterfeit of the genuine) began when Paul departed.  Remember how he was already having to fight off the wolves and said that after he departed wolves would come in and devour the flock.  It’s a mystery but Jesus even said behold I send you out as sheep among wolves….this is not unknown to God, but is one way He uses to test us.  The church is supposed to learn the lessons of Israel’s mistakes, her ensample, but ultimately she doesn’t learn….her falling away has been prophesied.  (Except for a remnant, the Lord always reserves for Himself a remnant.  And like Israel, though she be as numerous as the stars and sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.)

So the following scriptures in Jeremiah 5 are talking about earthly Israel and Jerusalem, as well as at the same time they are speaking to the church today, and see also that she corresponds to Babylon:

Jer 5:1

Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.

Jer 5:9-10

Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

Go ye up upon her walls, and destroy; but make not a full end: take away her battlements; for they are not the LORD'S.  (Because they are a counterfeit, built up with lies/deception and untempered mortar.)

Jer 5:26-27

For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.  (Babylon entices and takes souls captive spiritually, just like she took Israel captive physically...written down not as a history lesson but as a manifestation and type/shadow of an unfortunate spiritual reality.)

As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich

Rev 18:2

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.