apostasia

[calledoutones]

Here is something to think about, the word apostasia is a noun, and as I mentioned before it was translated as "departure" in the first 7 english translations. The verb for the word "apostasia" is strongs number g868 "aphistemi", aphistemi is used in acts 12 verse 10, and the Angel "departed" from him. my point is this that strongs defines aphistemi to remove, or actively instigate to revolt, to desist or desert, draw or fall away, the angel "departed" from him, he didnt instigate a revolt or fall away! departed is a verb in the english language, and departure is a noun in the english language, and if you look at the context and literary structure of of 2 thessalonians chapter 2 you find that paul in 2:6-8 repeats the same two events mentioned in 2:3, quoting thomas ice in his study of "The rapture in 2 thessalonians 2:3, He says; Both events are stated twice in the passage: first, "the departure" (rapture) and "the revelation of the man of sin" (verse 3), and second, the restrainer (holy spirit) "is taken out of the way" (rapture) and "the lawless one will  be revealed" (verses 7-8). If "the departure" is some form of revolt (my word) then the parallelism is broken. Also I want to point out that if we read 2 thess 2 in context we find that the thessalonians were going through tribulations as mentioned in 2 thess 1:4, so paul writes to the not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us that the day of christ had come! 2 thess 2:2, they thought that they had missed the rapture because of tribulation, and paul comforts them by telling them not to worry about it because the departure will come "first". makes perfect sense to me. comment please! shalom

[wingnut-]

It really doesn't make a bit of sense, when you lay it out in a complete thought.  Start by the context Paul lays out.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

Now paraphrase it in modern English with your rendering of the verse.

 

Now brothers, concerning the coming of Jesus and our being gathered to Him.  Don't be shaken or disturbed that the day of the Lord has already come.  That day will not come, unless the gathering comes first and the A/C is revealed.

 

See the problem?  The gathering will happen before the gathering?  

The other nonsensical part of this is the attempt to change what apostasia means.  If someone speaks of apostasy, or say an apostate church, do you distort the meaning to believe that this apostate church has been raptured?

Paul connects the rapture to His coming in the first verse, it is the same thing Jesus told us Himself.

God bless

[WilliamL]

Just a note about the use of the word apostasia in the Book of 1 Maccabees: there the term unequivocally meant apostasy:

Dan. 11:32 Those who [did] wickedly against the covenant [Antiochus] corrupt[ed] with flattery; but the people knowing their God [were] strong, and acted so. 1 Macc. 2:1 In those days Mattathias…a priest of the sons of Joarib… 14 …and his [five] sons rent their clothes, put on sackcloth, and mourned greatly. 15 Then the kingʼs officers who were enforcing the apostasy [Gr. apostasia] came to Modein to make them offer sacrifice. … 19 But Mattathias answered and said in a loud voice… 22 “We will not obey the kingʼs words by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left.

[Revelation Man]

On 10/12/2019 at 9:01 AM, calledoutones said:

Here is something to think about, the word apostasia is a noun, and as I mentioned before it was translated as "departure" in the first 7 english translations. The verb for the word "apostasia" is strongs number g868 "aphistemi", aphistemi is used in acts 12 verse 10, and the Angel "departed" from him. my point is this that strongs defines aphistemi to remove, or actively instigate to revolt, to desist or desert, draw or fall away, the angel "departed" from him, he didnt instigate a revolt or fall away! departed is a verb in the english language, and departure is a noun in the english language, and if you look at the context and literary structure of of 2 thessalonians chapter 2 you find that paul in 2:6-8 repeats the same two events mentioned in 2:3, quoting thomas ice in his study of "The rapture in 2 thessalonians 2:3, He says; Both events are stated twice in the passage: first, "the departure" (rapture) and "the revelation of the man of sin" (verse 3), and second, the restrainer (holy spirit) "is taken out of the way" (rapture) and "the lawless one will  be revealed" (verses 7-8). If "the departure" is some form of revolt (my word) then the parallelism is broken. Also I want to point out that if we read 2 thess 2 in context we find that the thessalonians were going through tribulations as mentioned in 2 thess 1:4, so paul writes to the not to be soon shaken in mind, or troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us that the day of christ had come! 2 thess 2:2, they thought that they had missed the rapture because of tribulation, and paul comforts them by telling them not to worry about it because the departure will come "first". makes perfect sense to me. comment please! shalom

You are 100 percent right, it means the Church will be DEPARTING. I wrote a piece on this 3 or 4 years ago. Nothing else even makes any sense. The Rapture is indeed pre trib and can not be any other way. But when people get invested in ideas, its hard to overcome their Men's Traditions. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Billiards Ball]

The church will not depart until the Antichrist is seated on the mercy seat of the coming Third Temple. How does align with a pretrib rapture, to have the 5th seal come before the rapture?

[Revelation Man]

On 10/12/2019 at 8:43 PM, wingnut- said:

It really doesn't make a bit of sense, when you lay it out in a complete thought.  Start by the context Paul lays out.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

Now paraphrase it in modern English with your rendering of the verse.

 

Now brothers, concerning the coming of Jesus and our being gathered to Him.  Don't be shaken or disturbed that the day of the Lord has already come.  That day will not come, unless the gathering comes first and the A/C is revealed.

 

See the problem?  The gathering will happen before the gathering?  

The other nonsensical part of this is the attempt to change what apostasia means.  If someone speaks of apostasy, or say an apostate church, do you distort the meaning to believe that this apostate church has been raptured?

Paul connects the rapture to His coming in the first verse, it is the same thing Jesus told us Himself.

God bless

It doesn't mean the GATHERING is before the GATHERING, that is something some man passed to you guys because you all repeat it and its a nonsensical statement. It means the DAY OF WRATH can't come BEFORE the Departure/Rapture/Gathering, because both the the Rapture/Departure and the Anti-Christ has to happen before the Wrath of God falls on mankind. 

 Its just a bad reading of the text in the "Olde English" it was written in, where some people have a hard time understanding the text. Its speaking of BOTH the Church Departing AND the Man of Sin being REVEALED before the Day of the Lord's Wrath FALLS ON MEN. {Its the Wrath of God that is the Subject the Thessalonians feared}.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away{DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH} first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So let me break this down in modern English.

The word for FALLING AWAY means Departure and what is Departing ? The first verse tells us, Jesus will come and Gather his Church so we get  "We beseech you by the coming of Jesus and the gathering unto him". To BESEECH means to ASK URGENTLY !! So what was Paul asking them in such an urgent tone ? Well the passage tells us in verse 2.

We ask you urgently that you allow NO MAN to DECEIVE you by Preaching {Word} by a Letter that claims this is what we have been saying, nor by any Spirit [Not of God of course, a lying Spirit or Demon]. BECAUSE THAT DAY.......The Day of the Lord/Christ [God's Wrath], shall not come until the Church DEPARTS.........AND.........The Anti-Christ is REVEALED as the Man of Sin/Beast.

The Anti-Christ is the First Four Seals, the White Horse who Conquers, the Red Horse that takes Peace away, the Black Horse that brings Famine and the Pale Green Horse that brings Death, Sickness and the Grave and ALL FOUR happen over a 42 Month period of time.

So the Rapture happens........AND the Anti-Christ is RELEASED to go Forth Conquering, Killing, Stealing etc. etc. and THEN the Day of the Lord FALLS ON MEN at the 6th Seal.

The 6th Seal is opened after the first 5 Seals of course, even though its on the same day.

So the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ is REVEALED and then the DOTL comes !!


 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

It doesn't mean the GATHERING is before the GATHERING, that is something some man passed to you guys because you all repeat it and its a nonsensical statement.

 

That is exactly what you are claiming it says though, but we do agree that your rendering is nonsensical if that is any comfort to you.  Apostasia is the very word apostasy comes from, as well as the root word for apostate.  William showed you an example from Daniel above as well, same word, it means what it means.

 

God bless

[Revelation Man]

27 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

That is exactly what you are claiming it says though, but we do agree that your rendering is nonsensical if that is any comfort to you.  Apostasia is the very word apostasy comes from, as well as the root word for apostate.  William showed you an example from Daniel above as well, same word, it means what it means.

 

God bless

No, that is you not understanding the text, then repeating something you heard somewhere else, that doesn't make any sense. Apostisia means Departure. I have done a Blog on this. Since you want to argue the point so vehemently I was paste it here for all to see. 

Is the Falling Away [from the faith] a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left on earth by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings" of Catholicism.


One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away/Revolt of the faith. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1400 or so years it seems.

 

[wingnut-]

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No, that is you not understanding the text, then repeating something you heard somewhere else, that doesn't make any sense.

 

No, I have no need to hear it from somewhere else, I can simply read.  

[Revelation Man]

1 minute ago, wingnut- said:

 

No, I have no need to hear it from somewhere else, I can simply read.  

I was hearing the exact same thing 10 years ago, and it made ZERO SENSE to me then either. And its still being repeated today, the fact that you still repeat it means you don't understand the text at all.  I actually went over this with someone about a year ago and figured out why they were misconstruing the text, and then showed then why it was erroneous, but I can't remember now why they thought that, all I know is the verse is vert clear, but those who can't see the Pre Trib have to latch on to anything they can get I guess.