RAPTURE IN 2 THESSALONIANS

[Gentle-Warrior]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

May I inquire if you are partial preterist or full preterist?

If you want to label me, I would say partial, but even then I have some problems with preterism. I prefer to read the word of God on my own. I exegete God's word, while asking the Holy Spirit to open my eyes, as I put Christ at the center of all the scriptures (as it should be).

One thing though, I hate Replacement Theology, but not as much the futuristic one. It is so unreal and so out of  bounds with God's word. Too many assumptions and much ignorance (no pun intended) 

Many have fallen for the trap of modern Israel. It is a deception and a log on many peoples' eyes. 

God bless, 

[OneLight]

14 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

If you want to label me, I would say partial, but even then I have some problems with preterism. I prefer to read the word of God on my own. I exegete God's word, while asking the Holy Spirit to open my eyes, as I put Christ at the center of all the scriptures (as it should be).

One thing though, I hate Replacement Theology, but not as much the futuristic one. It is so unreal and so out of  bounds with God's word. Too many assumptions and much ignorance (no pun intended) 

Many have fallen for the trap of modern Israel. It is a deception and a log on many peoples' eyes. 

God bless, 

I'm not trying to label you, but understand your stance in theology.  May I ask what you mean by "the futuristic one"?  Are you speaking about the futuristic Israel or that you think all prophecy have been fulfilled?

[Gentle-Warrior]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Tell that to Peter, or any number of the OT prophets.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

God bless

I still claim that most of Christians do not understand God's word as it was written within the culture, language and intent of the original writers. Most people take the word of God as if it was directly written to the 21st century English population. 

What I have learned is that the day of the Lord was in reference to God's judgment on Israel and the coming close of the old covenant between God and Israel. Peter was indicating in a very Hebrew way that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was around the corner.

In Hebrew culture and Scripture, the phrase heaven and earth was a common idiom used to refer to a system of government and specifically to the system of the old covenant Law. In other words, the phrase "heavens and earth" is covenantal language. It is not referring to the physical heavens and earth.

The Old Heavens and Earth was the Old Covenant and the New Heavens and Earth was to be the New Covenant where righteousness dwells. Christians are the New Creation and the New Heavens and Earth. Once again, the concept is spiritual/covenantal, not physical/literal.

I can explain the rest, but most people reject anything that doesn't fit their pre-programmed teachings. 

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

9 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I'm not trying to label you, but understand your stance in theology.  May I ask what you mean by "the futuristic one"?  Are you speaking about the futuristic Israel or that you think all prophecy have been fulfilled?

By "futuristic" I mean the the doctrine of the "Millennium", the so called "Great Tribulation", "future Israel" being saved, etc. Most of those teachings are but a few hundred years old. 

As for end time prophecies, Christ has fulfilled them all, although we have yet to see the final judgment of the wicked, the return of the Lord, the resurrection of the dead and the unveiling of a new world where sin is no more. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Gentle-Warrior

[Gentle-Warrior]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Objections:

Leading. Argumentative. Cherry picking.

The concept here is order of events. Beast first, then the Return of Jesus, as a whole. 

 

 

 

Have you ever thought that the the book of Revelation may not have been written for the future? Of course we all know that this book was written 2,000 years ago, specifically it addressed the seven churches of Asia Minor, but have you personally learned that this book was actually written for an intergalactic future that has meant absolutely nothing for 20 centuries and continues to be irrelevant to our present time? 

I think most Christians have never given this a thought because verses 1:1, 3:11, 22:7, 10 and 12 indicate that all the events were to take place in a short time for them, not for us. 

Think about it before you give me a generic response.

Blessings,  

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

I still claim that most of Christians do not understand God's word as it was written within the culture, language and intent of the original writers. Most people take the word of God as if it was directly written to the 21st century English population. 

What I have learned is that the day of the Lord was in reference to God's judgment on Israel and the coming close of the old covenant between God and Israel. Peter was indicating in a very Hebrew way that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was around the corner.

In Hebrew culture and Scripture, the phrase heaven and earth was a common idiom used to refer to a system of government and specifically to the system of the old covenant Law. In other words, the phrase "heavens and earth" is covenantal language. It is not referring to the physical heavens and earth.

The Old Heavens and Earth was the Old Covenant and the New Heavens and Earth was to be the New Covenant where righteousness dwells. Christians are the New Creation and the New Heavens and Earth. Once again, the concept is spiritual/covenantal, not physical/literal.

I can explain the rest, but most people reject anything that doesn't fit their pre-programmed teachings. 

 

 

Well, if its any consolation I shook off the teaching I was raised under in regards to eschatology, so nothing pre-programmed here.  As for the preterist view, I do in fact reject it.  In fact, your claim that what Peter wrote in the passage I posted was speaking to something that already happened doesn't hold up under scrutiny, Peter is speaking about a future event.  He isn't speaking to them in regards to something that has happened, but something that will happen.  Take the very first sentence for example.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

 

Now, if Peter were speaking about something that had already taken place, he would have written something like this.

 

But the day of the Lord came like a thief, and the heavens passed away with a roar, the heavenly bodies were burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works done on it were exposed.

 

Big difference between the two, as you can see.

 

God bless

[OneLight]

19 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

By "futuristic" I mean the the doctrine of the "Millennium", the so called "Great Tribulation", "future Israel" being saved, etc. Most of those teachings are but a few hundred years old. 

As for end time prophecies, Christ has fulfilled them all, although we have yet to see the final judgment of the wicked, the return of the Lord, the resurrection of the dead and the unveiling of a new world where sin is no more. 

How interesting.  Do you believe that everything in Revelation pertaining to the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials have already happen?  If so, can you point in history when they occurred?

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

If you want to label me, I would say partial, but even then I have some problems with preterism. I prefer to read the word of God on my own. I exegete God's word, while asking the Holy Spirit to open my eyes, as I put Christ at the center of all the scriptures (as it should be).

One thing though, I hate Replacement Theology, but not as much the futuristic one. It is so unreal and so out of  bounds with God's word. Too many assumptions and much ignorance (no pun intended) 

Many have fallen for the trap of modern Israel. It is a deception and a log on many peoples' eyes. 

God bless, 

It does not sound like you read the book of Revelation literally. It sounds like you give Revelation your own words. That is dangerous. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Have you ever thought that the the book of Revelation may not have been written for the future? Of course we all know that this book was written 2,000 years ago, specifically it addressed the seven churches of Asia Minor, but have you personally learned that this book was actually written for an intergalactic future that has meant absolutely nothing for 20 centuries and continues to be irrelevant to our present time? 

I think most Christians have never given this a thought because verses 1:1, 3:11, 22:7, 10 and 12 indicate that all the events were to take place in a short time for them, not for us. 

Think about it before you give me a generic response.

Blessings,  

Matt 24, Mark 16, Luke 21. Future.

Have you seen the rise of the beast? The mark of the beast? The world worshiping the beast? And it goes on and on...A single generation will witness all the things in Matt 24:4-34. That has clearly not happened.

"must shortly come to pass' Is literally "necessary operating conditions existing', not a time frame; which you are defining subjectively.

"Quickly" in 3:11 is without 'unnecessary delay', it's not a word for 'immediate'. Same with Rev 22:7 and 12. If verse 10 really meant 'now' or 'immediately' it would contradict the other scripture that speaks to the timing. 

So no, they do not indicate any sort of demand for completion within a subjective time frame. 

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

Diaste, I will respond to questions when you respond to mine. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Gentle-Warrior