Al Baghdadi.

[Steve_S]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Revelation 18  After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice,

“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
    She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
    a haunt for every unclean bird,
    a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.

Scripture tells us that the earth is made bright by the glory of Jesus at His return, and that is what the passage above from Revelation 18 displays, Jesus announces the fall of Babylon and it is at the hands of the armies from the north, His instruments for destruction.

So the claim is that the angel saying this is Jesus?

 

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I don't believe it does, the battle of Armageddon does come after as I said earlier, but the battle of Armageddon is after the 70th week and the beginning of the Millennial reign where He is ruling with the iron scepter.

It, however, says what it says though. Approaching it with a predetermined outcome in mind requires it to be interpreted differently than what the text actual says. That is my primary issue with this theory overall. It starts with mystery and ends with confusion, rather than start with what is specifically known and going from there. The end outcome of starting with what is actually *known* with specifics and in concrete sequences makes it nearly impossible to definitively identify Babylon as any specific entity. The impossible thing with all of this is that the majority of passages being posted says Babylon repeatedly, both old testament and new.  Again, I draw your attention to Revelation 19.

Rev 19:1-15  After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!  (2)  For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her."  (3)  Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"  (4)  And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"  (5)  Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"  (6)  And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!  (7)  Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."  (8)  And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  (9)  Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."  (10)  And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."  (11)  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.  (12)  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.  (13)  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.  (14)  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.  (15)  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16)  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  (17)  Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,  (18)  that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."  (19)  And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
 

If one reads that as an actual passage, just reads it how it is written, there is simply no escaping that Babylon is already a smoking, destroyed ruin when this happens. The more complicated the Jerusalem theory gets (and it is past the point of complicated), the less one can just read the bible and believe what it specifically says.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Steve_S

[wingnut-]

On 11/22/2019 at 11:05 PM, Steve_S said:

So the claim is that the angel saying this is Jesus?

 

Yes, it has to be.  The day of the Lord is described repeatedly in prophecies as a day of absolute darkness, in which the sun never rises and the moon or stars give no light.  At the 7th trumpet His sign will appear in the sky, and the sign will be the light of His glory as He approaches.  This is why every eye will see Him coming.  He is the only light, and from that moment on He will literally be the light of the world.

 

Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.

 

Evening is the beginning of the new day going back to Genesis and the creation account, and in this case it is the beginning of the 7th day, the Millennial kingdom.

 

On 11/22/2019 at 11:05 PM, Steve_S said:

If one reads that as an actual passage, just reads it how it is written, there is simply no escaping that Babylon is already a smoking, destroyed ruin when this happens. The more complicated the Jerusalem theory gets (and it is past the point of complicated), the less one can just read the bible and believe what it specifically says.

 

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion, it is really not complicated at all.  Considering we agree that Babylon is already attacked by the army from the north prior to His return I'm not sure what the issue is.  Babylon can only fall once, so it really comes down to accepting that fact and that all the mentions of its fall are speaking to the same event.

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion, it is really not complicated at all.  Considering we agree that Babylon is already attacked by the army from the north prior to His return I'm not sure what the issue is.  Babylon can only fall once, so it really comes down to accepting that fact and that all the mentions of its fall are speaking to the same event.

What's confusing about this though is that you say that He doesn't completely destroy it until after He returns, if I'm not mistaken? I may have misunderstood. Could you clarify?

[wingnut-]

17 hours ago, Steve_S said:

What's confusing about this though is that you say that He doesn't completely destroy it until after He returns, if I'm not mistaken? I may have misunderstood. Could you clarify?

 

Yes.  The fall of Babylon occurs when the armies take the city and set it on fire.  It is at this point that Jesus appears in the sky, gathers the elect, and begins His descent to the Mt. of Olives.

 

Jeremiah 50:2 “Declare among the nations and proclaim,
    set up a banner and proclaim,
    conceal it not, and say:
‘Babylon is taken,
    Bel is put to shame,
    Merodach is dismayed.
Her images are put to shame,
    her idols are dismayed.’

3 “For out of the north a nation has come up against her, which shall make her land a desolation, and none shall dwell in it; both man and beast shall flee away.

 

Jeremiah 50:15 Raise a shout against her all around;
    she has surrendered;
her bulwarks have fallen;
    her walls are thrown down.
For this is the vengeance of the Lord:
    take vengeance on her;
    do to her as she has done.

 

To me, this represents the fall of Babylon, the city is taken, the false worship within it has been destroyed, and there is no more fight left.  The city is still there and burning when the Lord touches down on the Mt. of Olives, then we get the earthquake that opens the passage for the people to flee.  It also must align with the 7th bowl/vial according to John, and that is confirmed by Jeremiah as well.

 

Jeremiah 50:12 your mother shall be utterly shamed,
    and she who bore you shall be disgraced.
Behold, she shall be the last of the nations,
    a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.

[Steve_S]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

 

To me, this represents the fall of Babylon, the city is taken, the false worship within it has been destroyed, and there is no more fight left.  The city is still there and burning when the Lord touches down on the Mt. of Olives, then we get the earthquake that opens the passage for the people to flee.  It also must align with the 7th bowl/vial according to John, and that is confirmed by Jeremiah as well.

So if Babylon is Jerusalem and you say it has totally fallen prior to Jesus' return, it's like this:

Rev 18:21  Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

But, in Zechariah we see this:

Zec 14:14  Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations Shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. 
Zec 14:15  Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule, On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be. 
Zec 14:16  And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 
Zec 14:17  And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

So, Babylon, thrown down, found no more. But Jerusalem, suspiciously intact? Indeed, in the same Paragraph we see the same Jerusalem that was fought against mentioned as the Jerusalem that families of the earth will make pilgrimage during the millennium. I just don't see how this is possible if Jerusalem is also the Babylon of Revelation. This is the ultimate issue.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, guys.

Just a question: Why can't Babylon be Babylon (that is, Bavel, Iraq)?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Retrobyter

[WilliamL]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:54 AM, wingnut- said:

On 11/19/2019 at 11:20 AM, WilliamL said:

Lines 1-4 speak of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Has nothing to do with the end times. Towers and siegeworks were ancient tactics.

Line 7 summarizes the deliverance of Jerusalem per Zech. 14.

 

So what you believe is the first four verses are about one time, and everything that follows is unrelated?

Isaiah 29  Ah, Ariel, Ariel,
    the city where David encamped!
Add year to year;
    let the feasts run their round.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel,
    and there shall be moaning and lamentation,
    and she shall be to me like an Ariel.
3 And I will encamp against you all around,
    and will besiege you with towers
    and I will raise siegeworks against you.
4 And you will be brought low; from the earth you shall speak,
    and from the dust your speech will be bowed down;
your voice shall come from the ground like the voice of a ghost,
    and from the dust your speech shall whisper.

5 But the multitude of your foreign foes shall be like small dust,
    and the multitude of the ruthless like passing chaff.
And in an instant, suddenly,
6     you will be visited by the Lord of hosts
with thunder and with earthquake and great noise,
    with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel,
    all that fight against her and her stronghold and distress her,
    shall be like a dream, a vision of the night.

Not unrelated at all: the former was the fall, the latter is the redemption. Line 4 indicates utter destruction, which the Romans did inflict on Jerusalem in 70 and 135 AD. Line 5 cannot follow from that event, because line 5 says Jerusalem's foes will be destroyed when they "fight against" it. Mutually exclusive wars.