Never Heard a Satisfactory Explanation?

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

John indicates this takes place at the end of the Millennial kingdom when Satan returns.  I think most don't address it because they can't understand the timing of it.

 

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

 

God bless

Yeah, that's another another long held debate between scholars and Bible students. How could there be two Gog-Magog invasions 1,000 years apart, or is there only one invasion at the end of the Millennium when Satan is released? 

I won't bore anyone again with my long winded explanations of my thoughts; other to say, I think Gog is just a title like "leader or king", most likely associated with a demonic title, and Magog is an area and landmass. Personally, I think these are two separate events separated by 1,000 years, but I'm not dogmatic about it or trying to convince anyone, just want others views and opinions. Another topic we argue on, is the book of Revelation in chronological order with parenthetical chapters inserted, or are the events way out of order as some suggest on this forum and elsewhere? I hold to the former myself. If in fact and that holds true, that Revelation is in chronological order, it's clear to me there's two separate and distinguished Gog-Magog events, separated by a millennium.  

Again, I'm not arguing my point or trying to convince anyone of my view. I'm just a Bible student like everyone else on here, wanting to talk about God's word, and in this instance prophecy, that we can visually see and hear taking place in the present. At the speed everything is taking place, if we're still here; one , two or three years from now, I suspect if we haven't already witnessed some prophetic events occur, the half darkened glass will be much clearer. 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Who me said:

It is very simple.

                            There is no satisfactory explanation for what will precede Jesus's return.

 

Best idea is to follow K.I.S.S. and believe he is coming again and live in the light of that knowledge. All ideas about his coming will turn out to be wrong and once he is here we will not care about all the explanations that tried to say what would happen.

There is if you read what's after this verse in Matthew 24: 3, in Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Revelation, Isaiah, and many other places in my opinion.

Matthew 24:3 (KJV) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [emphasis added]

Matthew 25:13 (KJV) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. [emphasis added]

The commandment to watch; what are we suppose to be watching for. Partial answers are listed in Matthew 24: and elsewhere in scripture.

[Steve_S]

I highly doubt the Magog confederation from Ezekiel 38-39 is the same as is mentioned after the millennium. There are a plethora of reasons I doubt this, but the in the main it can probably be best expressed in the players.

Rev 20:7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 
Rev 20:8  and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 
Rev 20:9  They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 
Rev 20:10  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 

Four corners of the earth. As Dennis said earlier, Gog is probably a title in both passages. Magog may be a title here as well (though I doubt it is in Ezekiel).

Eze 38:2  "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 
Eze 38:3  and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 
Eze 38:4  I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 
Eze 38:5  Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 
Eze 38:6  Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

These are geographically identifiable areas. There are, of course, debates as to the identify of some. But these seem to be players from the mideast, plus possibly Russia. In other words, this is not a worldwide confederation, but a mostly regional confederation led by possibly a singular extra-regional instigator.

The reasons are also different:

Eze 38:10  'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: 
Eze 38:11  You will say, 'I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates'— 
Eze 38:12  to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land. 

The Gog confederation of Ezekiel is basically an attempted larceny writ large. Israel is wealthy and they want it.

Another:

Eze 39:11  "It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 
Eze 39:12  For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 
Eze 39:13  Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 

Bodies are being buried for seven months here. That's not what happens to the army that comes against Israel in Revelation, though:

Rev 20:9  They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 

They are likely reduced to dust right there on the spot.

There are many more arguments, of course, and I didn't even mean to make this many (I try not to post walls of text).

Ultimately, the final in Revelation is a rebellion against God that is immediately put down. Shortly thereafter there is judgment and New Jerusalem comes into play.

Ezekiel 38-39 seems to end with God making an example out of the invaders. Fire, hail, brimstone rains on them. They lay dead for seven months before they can all be buried, etc.

 

[dhchristian]

22 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Perhaps I'm overlooking the obvious, and why it's not addressed by prophecy scholars and teachers? Your thoughts?

To me, and how I view revelation it is obvious when this occurs, and the key clue is  Great hailstones.

And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Eze. 38:22)

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev. 11:19)

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Rev 16:21)

Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? (Job 38:22-23)

To Me this all points to the end of the final week. 

 

 

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

To Me this all points to the end of the final week. 

Are you speaking of the final battle or this battle being separate, but towards the end of the final week?

[dhchristian]

9 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Are you speaking of the final battle or this battle being separate, but towards the end of the final week?

There is only one battle, Gog Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is one in the same as Armageddon, and if you look at Rev 16:16 you will see this. There is another Gog war after the thousand years which does not pertain here. 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 11/5/2019 at 5:40 PM, Dennis1209 said:

There's a wide variety of opinion; some say it occurs prior to the start of the tribulation, some say at the start of the tribulation, some say in the middle?

Hi Dennis,

Yes, there certainly are a lot of opinions out there.

I posted on a blog sometime back, but here is the gist of it:

Let’s examine why it must occur during the 70^th Week of Daniel:

• Israel is living in false security (Ezek. 38:11). Look at Israel today. It does not live securely. Only a deceptive peace treaty will fool them into doing so.
•  
• God refers to Gog as “you are the one of whom I spoke in former days through my servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them” (Ezek. 38: 17 NASB). This can only refer to the Antichrist, and the Antichrist only arises and attacks Israel at the Midpoint of Daniel’s 70^th Week.
•  
• God states that he will rain hail, fire, and brimstone on the forces of Gog. (Ezek. 38:22) This only occurs during the First Trumpet judgment. This time stamps that event as occurring at the beginning of the Seventh Year of the 70^th Week of Daniel.
•  
• After God defeats Gog and his army, God feeds them to the birds of the air (Ezek. 39: 17-20). This is an exact match with Rev. 19: 17 -18 where God calls the birds to gather to feast on the bodies of the Antichrist forces after the Battle of Armageddon.
•  
• God calls Gog’s forces a cloud that covers the land which is a match with God’s description of them in Joel 2:2.
•  
• After the battle, the Jewish captives are released and brought back to the land (Ezek. 39: 25-28). This happens after the Battle of Armageddon, and cannot happen prior to that point according to all the other pictures of the 70^th Week. This passage also claims that from that day forward, God will not allow a single Jew will be left behind in the nations. This is rock solid evidence that this can only refer to the end of the 70^th Week.
•  
• After this battle, God will not let his Holy Name be profaned any more (Ezek. 39: 7). This can only happen at the conclusion of the 70^th Week of Daniel. How can this apply to a time before the 70^th Week?
•  
• After the Battle, Israel knows the Lord is God from that point on forever (Ezek. 39: 22). Again, this can only happen at the conclusion of the 70^th Week.
•  
• God announces that this “is the day of which I have spoken” (Ezek. 39:8 NASB).
•  
• After the battle, God pours out his Spirit on Israel (Ezek. 39:29).
•  
• Finally, in Ezek. 38: 19-20 we learn that Jesus is physically present on the earth. As we have seen all of these aspects can only be fulfilled at the conclusion of Daniel’s 70^th Week and at no other time.

For all these reasons, the battle of Gog of Magog can only be the Battle of Armageddon, and Gog can only be the Antichrist. This is important, because in this passage, God’s Word clearly identifies the armies and Kingdom of the Antichrist. 

And the word of the Lord came to me saying,  “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog (Turkey), the prince of Rosh (see explanation below), Meshech (Turkey), and Tubal (Turkey), and prophesy against him and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.  I will turn you about (remember Daniel ‘you will turn back’) and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords;  Persia, Ethiopia (actually Sudan) and Put (Libya) with them, all of them with shield and helmet;  Gomer (Turkey/Assyria) with all its troops; Beth-togarmah (Turkey/Assyria) from the remote parts of the north with all its troops—many peoples with you. (Ezek. 38: 1-6 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

I believe this sums it up pretty good. 

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

There is only one battle, Gog Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is one in the same as Armageddon, and if you look at Rev 16:16 you will see this. There is another Gog war after the thousand years which does not pertain here.

I rarely will just look at a single verse. Probably best to look at the whole passage.

Rev 16:12  Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 
Rev 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 
Rev 16:14  For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 
Rev 16:15  "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 
Rev 16:16  And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. 

The main problem I have with the idea that these battles are one in the same is that the players do not seem to be the same.

Eze 38:2  "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 
Eze 38:3  and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 
Eze 38:4  I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 
Eze 38:5  Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 
Eze 38:6  Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you. 

Here specific players are mentioned. It is hardly the "whole word." If Russia is in view as Rosh or Magog, that would be the most powerful country involved. If not, then the most powerful country would be Turkey followed by Persia. This does not seem to possibly be the same group when given a plain literal reading.

There are many other reasons to think this, of course, it's just that this probably highlights it the fastest.

[dhchristian]

28 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I rarely will just look at a single verse. Probably best to look at the whole passage.

Rev 16:12  Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 
Rev 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 
Rev 16:14  For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 
Rev 16:15  "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 
Rev 16:16  And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. 

The main problem I have with the idea that these battles are one in the same is that the players do not seem to be the same.

Eze 38:2  "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 
Eze 38:3  and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 
Eze 38:4  I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 
Eze 38:5  Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 
Eze 38:6  Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you. 

Here specific players are mentioned. It is hardly the "whole word." If Russia is in view as Rosh or Magog, that would be the most powerful country involved. If not, then the most powerful country would be Turkey followed by Persia. This does not seem to possibly be the same group when given a plain literal reading.

There are many other reasons to think this, of course, it's just that this probably highlights it the fastest.

Actually, there are many countries "Many countries are with you"(38:6). Take a look at a map of the middle east, where is Persia in relation to Israel. Most of the armies of the North would come down between the black sea, and the Caspian sea, which places the armies in the east. Look also at all the nations in the east near Persia, All the "Stan" nations, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenestan, Uzbekistan, etc. many of these nations were part of the Medo/Persian Empire. Then all those armies then have to cross the Euphrates river. With the exception of the African nations, And perhaps the European ones coming from due north, All the nations are from the east. This is just geography.

Just So you know, this is not just based on a single scripture either, but many. There are literally hundreds of prophecies that point to this great war, and to say that one passage, Ezekiel 38-39 names all the characters is to ignore all the other 99 passages of this final end time battle. In Fact, the Oldest book in The Bible, Job, mentions this final war, in the verse I quoted previously. Not to mention Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zechariah.... I Mean there are just so many, and if you were to separate all those prophecies into individual wars, Israel, a nation the size of New Jersey would be one big crater in a constant state of War. For me to try and explain all of this here and give you those scriptures would take a bunch of space and time here that I do not have, Instead I encourage you to do this study yourself. Begin with Ezekiel 12-14 and note that this great battle comes after Israel has "Mourned for him whom they have pierced". (Zech. 12:10) When does this take place? Some time after the middle of the final week.  

[Who me]

10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

There is if you read what's after this verse in Matthew 24: 3, in Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Revelation, Isaiah, and many other places in my opinion.

Matthew 24:3 (KJV) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? [emphasis added]

Matthew 25:13 (KJV) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. [emphasis added]

The commandment to watch; what are we suppose to be watching for. Partial answers are listed in Matthew 24: and elsewhere in scripture.

As the title says,there are so many views that there are no satisfactory explanations.