Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:47 PM, Alive said:

Gal. 5:7   You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? ⁸ This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. ⁹ A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. ¹⁰ I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

Good point, thanks!

We should OBEY the truth (Gal.5:7)....and TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142)....and Paul (who wrote Galatians) applies the Psalms to YOU (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/16/2019 at 3:23 PM, Abdicate said:

2 Chronicles 7:14-15
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.  Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place. 

Yes!

And the people are ISRAEL (2Ch.7:10), and Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4).

And those who are HUMBLE obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3) and receive GRACE (Jas.4:6;Jas.3:34), so obey Torah!

And PRAYERS include PSALMS (Ps.72:20), and Psalms require TORAH (Ps.1;19;119;etc.), so obey Torah!

And WICKED ways are anti-Torah ways (Dt.31:29).  So obey Torah!

And sin is violation of Torah (Is.42:24).  So stop sinning, and obey Torah!

And we Christians are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12), and we partake in the New Covenant as fellow Israelites (Heb.8:8), and Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4;Heb.8:8-10).

So obey Torah!

And then our land may be healed....

blessings...

[OldCoot]

I am  not sure what is so difficult by some to realize that the Mosaic Torah applies to only Jews.   Even Jewish believers.  It was made with the Hebrew people, not gentiles.  But gentile believers  are under  the Noachide laws  of Genesis 9.  Unless one actually becomes  a proselyte and places themselves under the Mosaic Covenant, thereby becoming Jew, they never have been required to observe the Mosaic Law.

James and Paul affirmed that in Acts.  

All believers are redeemed thru the same Messiah, and in the Body  there is neither Jew nor Gentile spiritually, but that  does not mean a gentile who becomes a believer then falls under the Mosaic Law.   They  still remain under  the Noachide Law.   This was true of gentile "God fearers" in ancient Israel and in Yeshua's day and it is still true today per James and Paul.

Paul tells Jews who come to Messiah not to give up their heritage, and he tells gentiles coming to Messiah to not become Jews.   But all are of one body in Messiah.  It doesn't get any  simpler.

So,  as a gentile believer, I still get to eat oysters and have a  bacon cheese burger.  As long as any meat is killed properly, it is allowed.   And I know this will chap some people, but  that also includes observance of Shabbat. I am not  required to do so.  I may choose to and that would not be a  problem, but I am not required to.  That was given to Israel.

Edited December 21, 2019 by OldCoot

[KJVOnly]

On 11/6/2019 at 11:45 AM, BibleGuy said:

Hello all....I know we have different opinions among us....but I'd like to share my point of view, if that's ok....if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Or, maybe we should chat about this in ongoing detail in a "soapbox" discussion?

Anyway, here's my thesis:  CHRISTIANS SHOULD GROW IN FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE TO OBSERVABLE TORAH PORTIONS

Here's a brief summary of my supporting evidence:

1. God commands Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).  We should obey God.

2. Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;22:37;23:2-3,23).  We should obey Jesus.

3. The Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21).  We should walk in the Spirit.

4. Moses requires Torah (just read Exodus 20 through the rest of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) for Israel.

5. The prophets (e.g., Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.) require Torah.  We should obey the prophets.

6. The Psalms require Torah (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119;etc.)  We should obey the Psalms.

7. The Proverbs require Torah (e.g., Pr. 28:4,7,9).  We should obey the Proverbs.

8. Paul requires Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

9. John requires Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

10. Stephen requires Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

11. Peter requires Torah (citing Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16)

12. Hebrews requires Torah (Heb.8:10;10:16).

13. Revelation confirms Torah is properly OBEYED (Rev.12:17;14:12).

14. Torah-disobedience is BAD (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

15. Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  We should be good.

16. Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  We should be holy.

17. Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  We should do righteousness.

18. Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  We should be spiritual.

19. Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:20).  We should not sin, so we should OBEY Torah.

20. The New Covenant is given as Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

21. The CHURCH is ISRAEL (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10), so Christians are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Eph.2:12;Rom.9:24-26;11), and Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

22. We will inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) in conjunction with 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

23. Objections to my thesis do not provide a better explanation of all this available evidence.

 

Ok...that's good enough to get started....

Let's study together and share what we've learned!

blessings in Christ....

 

¹⁰ For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

 

Can't keep the Law....Don't try either.

Edited January 1, 2020 by KJVOnly

[JoeMo]

I am new here. Although I am not of Hebrew Roots, I am a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath-keeping believer.  Why?  Because honoring the 7th day is one of the 10 Commandments.  If as a gentile Christian I am not required to honor the 7th day, what other Commandments am I excused from?  Although it is not my right or privilege to "force" this on others, my thought is that I should endeavor - by God's grace  - to keep all 10 Commandments. If not honoring all 10, why bother honoring any of them at all?

As I read the Old Testament, I see just about everyone breaking almost every commandment almost constantly.  But you know what stands out to me as the BIG sins that God punished quite severely, it was idolatry and breaking the Sabbath. Could there be a message here?

The 4th Commandment is the only one that starts with the word "remember".  Could that mean the Sabbath was in force prior to the giving of the 10?  You can only remember that which has already occurred.

Edited January 10, 2020 by JoeMo

[Tzephanyahu]

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I am new here. Although I am not of Hebrew Roots, I am a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath-keeping believer.  Why?  Because honoring the 7th day is one of the 10 Commandments. 

Amen!

What a great summary post @JoeMo.  Surely the Spirit is with you when you speak with such reverence for His Word.  

So many out there have grey areas in knowledge of the Bible (sometimes intentionally).  They can quote Paul for days and days, yet can't quote the Father from the Tanakh - how sad.

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As I read the Old Testament, I see just about everyone breaking almost every commandment almost constantly.  But you know what stands out to me as the BIG sins that God punished quite severely, it was idolatry and breaking the Sabbath. Could there be a message here?

Surely Yahweh has revealed this matter to you as no one teaches this in the mainstream.  You have spoken wisely.

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Could that mean the Sabbath was in force prior to the giving of the 10?  You can only remember that which has already occurred.

Amen.  Instituted in Genesis and referred to and observed by the patriarchs before Moses as detailed in the books of the Apocrypha found with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And more is written about the Sabbath in Exodus 20:8 than any of the other 10 commandments (with perhaps the exception of Idolatry) because he wanted to make it clear and surely knew many would try to contest this matter.  But there is no ambiguity allowed in Exodus 20:8 - it's very clear what He meant.

You are going to run into a lot of resistance in the forum my brother. Many do not want to hear such things as it challenges them and they can feel like we are judging them by it - which we're not. But I personally look forward to reading more of your posts, as will a small amount of members on here who agree with you on this matter.

May Yahweh bless you and yours with wisdom, health and joy.

Love & Shalom

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

You are going to run into a lot of resistance in the forum my brother. Many do not want to hear such things as it challenges them and they can feel like we are judging them by it - which we're not.

Thanks so much for the encouraging words.  I'm okay with meeting resistance.  I'm an ex-hippie who still believes in questioning all the answers.  I have some contrarian beliefs; but they are the same ones that many Christians who have been unsatisfied with being told to "believe what we tell you to believe".  I strive to believe what I glean from God's word rather than what I hear from the pulpit.  In doing so, I have seen myself evolve from a mainstream member of the RCC to only believing what I can prove to myself from scripture.  I do make mistakes in logic and judgement at times, so I do appreciate constructive feedback and correction from my brothers and sisters.

Happy Sabbath and Christian Love to you!

Edited January 11, 2020 by JoeMo

[Tzephanyahu]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

I strive to believe what I glean from God's word rather than what I hear from the pulpit. 

Amen. 

What a delight to meet with you brother.  We're on the same path, as are a few others on here. HalleluYah! 

Let me know if I can be of help. 

Love & Shalom 

[Resurrection Priest]

Hebrews 7:12 says "there is of necessity a change of the Law".   What "change" ?  Answer:  "the priesthood being changed". 

If the priesthood is changed, there is no place to take an animal sacrifice.  The Torah said all sacrifices must be brought to Levite priests at "the place where the LORD chooses to put His name".  (Deut Cpt 12)

Besides - the blood of bulls and goats could not cleanse the heart/conscience.  

I'm all for Torah - the "changed" Torah, without animal blood. 

God's "once for all" Lamb, was sacrificed. 

I (little me) did NOT alter a jot or a tittle.  God did that - Himself.  So says the Letter to the Hebrews.

 

[Yishai]

1st John 3:4....The Knowledge of Sin...Yes all Christians should turn from sin, and now that the true Knowledge of Sin is being released like never before, as each one learns the truth, they will either choose to stick with traditions or willingly Obey His Commands with great Joy and be thankful for the Knowledge, as when we sin in ignorance, the sin is not yet firmly rooted, but as we learn the true knowledge of our sins, and still rebel or choose to not listen or repent, the sin becomes Fully standing, and firmly in place, any who has the Holy Spirit in them will not choose to willingly sin upon revelation of this truth inside Therself. 

1st John 3.4 knowledge of sin

Matt 5:17-19 not even the Least commandment.

Romans 7..Torah is Holy Just and Good.