The timing of the rapture

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, Sonshine said:

Yes.  Satan and Antichrist are one and the same.  Satan’s title of “the Antichrist” (which means instead of Christ) is during the last 5 months when he is on the earth in person. Satan has many names and titles and roles:

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

² And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

³ And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

No they are not. Satan gives power to the antichrist, who is the beast, Rev. 13:4. 

The Antichrist will be a future Mortal man, nothing more. That he will be a mortal man is clear from (Rev. 13:18). That he will be a mortal man is also clear from the fact that he will be "SLAIN" by Christ at His second advent (Dan. 7:11; Isa. 11:4; 2 Thess. 2:7-8).

If Christ is going to slay him at the second advent, then he must be a mortal man at that time. This proves that he will not be a resurrected immortal man from the dead, or indwelt by Satan. 

Rev. 13:18, Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number OF A MAN; and HIS number is Six hundred threescore and six. 

Dan. 7: 11, I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the BEAST WAS SLAIN and HIS body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

[HAZARD]

2 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Yes.  Satan and Antichrist are one and the same.  Satan’s title of “the Antichrist” (which means instead of Christ) is during the last 5 months when he is on the earth in person. Satan has many names and titles and roles:

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

² And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

³ And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

No they are not. Satan gives power to the antichrist, who is the beast, Rev. 13:4. 

Rev. 13:  4, And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The Antichrist will be a future Mortal man, nothing more. That he will be a mortal man is clear from (Rev. 13:18). That he will be a mortal man is also clear from the fact that he will be "SLAIN" by Christ at His second advent (Dan. 7:11; Isa. 11:4; 2 Thess. 2:7-8).

If Christ is going to slay him at the second advent, then he must be a mortal man at that time. This proves that he will not be a resurrected immortal man from the dead, or indwelt by Satan. 

Rev. 13:18, Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number OF A MAN; and HIS number is Six hundred threescore and six. 

Dan. 7: 11, I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the BEAST WAS SLAIN and HIS body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by HAZARD

[Jostler]

59 minutes ago, DustyRoad said:

Amazing what happens when we pray and wait upon the Lord. I was daunted by the prospect of reading the book of Revelation and so I let it rest while other matters took priority. Now I find myself taking a break from chores to read the forums and I come across this... well done, sister! 

consider this as well:

Just prior to satan being chained in the bottomless pit for a specified time, we see this:

Quote

Rev 19:20

Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

The dragon is not cast into the lake of fire for another thousand years.  Is it safe to assume the beast and the dragon are one and the same when they are clearly treated differently by Jesus at His return?  The truth might be a bit less simplistic than saying they are exactly the same.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 1/20/2020 at 11:20 PM, missmuffet said:

We do not know when the rapture of the Church will happen. It is immient and could happen at any time. Even before you type your next word. After the rapture of the Church comes the 7 year tribulation and after the 7 year tribulation comes the 1000 year millennium and after the 1000 year millennium comes eternity. 

Is there some reason that you omitted the fact that after the great tribulation there are some noteworthy events:

Quote

29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So, I am wondering if that was an accidental omission, or something you are not aware of, or something that is not literal and therefore too difficult to understand, or perhaps you just forgot. Maybe it is not important in your mind, but it seems to me that if you want to offer a series of events, those are worth adding. If you are willing, I would like to see your reasoning here!

It seems to me that the rapture is described in 1 Thess 4:

Quote

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a shout, with the archangel's call and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.

Do you not think those two descriptions look a lot alike, are at the very least have a lot of things too coincidental to not be considered as the same events?

I am also curious to know what it is that makes you think that He could come at any moment, do you not think there are something prophesied to happen, which have not yet transpired? How do you figure the following fits in:

17And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your rulers also. 18But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19Repent, therefore, and turn again, for the blotting out of your sins, 20so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send the One having been appointed to you, Christ Jesus, 21whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.

If heaven receives Jesus until a certain times (verse 20 above). That word there (by the way) "presense", is the following:

Strong's Concordance

prosópon: the face

Original Word: πρόσωπον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: prosópon
Phonetic Spelling: (pros'-o-pon)
Definition: the face
Usage: the face, countenance, surface.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from pros and óps (an eye, face)
Definition
the face

In other words, Jesus stays in heaven, until the times of refreshing (therefor He will not come at any moment) which come from his face to face coming, are as was stated in Matt 24, His presence, His arrival, His parousia.

So, if Jesus does not come before His coming after the tribulation, then he will leave heaven before hand. Those at least are my thoughts.

Sure, I replied to you missmuffet, but I did so for the benefit of others who read this, you have many time replied as if you know what will happen, and then offer that we will see who is right. Feel free to respond, but please so not feel obligated to. 

[HAZARD]

42 minutes ago, Sonshine said:

@HAZARD  ... In Revelation 13, you will find a great deal of symbolism.  A one-world system will come into existence and this system is ruled by Satan (the Antichrist) in a religious role.  This chapter speaks of two beasts.  One will be a political beast and the other, the last one, is a religious beast.

In Rev. 13:11, the beast coming up out of the earth looks like a Lamb (Jesus Christ), yet he speaks like a dragon--because he is the dragon (Satan), and he claims to be Jesus.

In Rev. 13:12, Satan will cause the wounded political beast (one world system) to come back together after it falls apart.  Then, that system and all the people on the face of the earth will worship Satan--all except the Elect and those who have been sealed.

Note that in verse 13, Satan (the Antichrist) makes fire come down from heaven.  This is no mere mortal man, HAZARD.  

It's all about deception.  That's what Satan is all about.  Satan is even going to make an image of this one world system and breathe life into it.

Revelation 13:11-15 King James Version (KJV)

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 13:11-15 King James Version (KJV)

The second beast will also be a man. The Greek "allos," means another of the same kind. The first beast is a man (v. 18), so the second one must also be a man, (v. 11; 16:13; 19:20; 20:10).

Personal pronouns  are used of them, indicating they are persons.

He will come out of the earth (v. 11), which is the same as coming out of the sea Cp, Dan. 7:3 with Dan. 7:7. There is no intimation that he will be from the underworld of departed spirits, or that he will be a man resurrected from the dead. Both beasts symbolize two natural men who will be born in these last days, will fulfill prophecy and die at Armageddon (19:20; Dan. 7:11; Isa. 11:4; 2 Th. 2:8).

He will come after the first beast and will be his prophet (v. 13; 19:20; 20:10).

He will come with a lamb like appearance to deceive, but will speak like the dragon (v.12).

He will exercise all the power of the first beast or Antichrist before him (v.2, 12:19:20; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).

He will cause men on earth to worship the first beast (v. 12; 17:8-11).

He will do great miracles, even calling fire from heaven before men, counterfeiting God and His works (v. 13:19:20. Cp. Num 11:1-3, 26:10).

He will deceive men by the miracles he will do in the sight of the first beast (v.14:19:20).

He will cause men to make an image of the first beast to be worshiped (v. 14; 14:9-11; 15:2; 16:2; 20:4-6).

He will have power to give life to the image causing it to speak and do personal acts (v. 15, Cp.Ex. 7:10-12).

He will cause the image to demand the death penalty for all who will not worship the Antichrist (v. 15; 7:9-17; 15:2; 20:4-6).

He will cause the men in the kingdom of the Antichrist to take a mark, or the name of the Antichrist, or the number of his name in the right hand or in their forhead (v. 16; 14:9-11; 15:2; 16:2; 20:4-60.He will mane a law that no man might buy or sell if he does not take one of the three brands (v. 17).

He will be equal to the first beast in sending demon spirits, working though ambassadors, to gather the nations to Armageddon (16: 13-16; 19:19-210.

He will be taken with the Antichrist at Armageddon and be cast alive into the lake of fire (19:20).

He will still be in the lake of fire in conscious torment on thousand years later (20:10).

 

[Dennis1209]

20 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Hey hey, Dennis. . .

In Matthew 24:22, "those days" are the days of the tribulation.  If God did not shorten the time and reign of the antichrist, man in the flesh would be deceived by the antichrist.  The tribulation has been shortened from 7 years to three-and-a-half years.  No, I don't believe that "something could happen to shorten the time by how we currently measure time."  There's more to this I might add, but later, when I get home.  

Matthew 24:22 (KJV) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Good cloudy rainy morning there Sonshine...

Okay, I see what you're saying, then again I don't? Let's see if our eschatology is close in agreement. The time of Jacob's trouble, Daniel's 70th week, a.k.a. the tribulation is a seven year period. That seven year period can be divided into three sections I do believe; the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan, and the wrath of God. For our discussion, let's just divide it into two divisions; the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation prior to the AC abomination of desolation [where the first 3 1/2 years Israel is under the covenant of the Antichrist and is living in relative peace. Then the second 3 1/2 years that starts at the AOD [the wrath of God] and ends with Jesus' 2nd coming with the saints. 

If I'm understanding you correctly so far, you're thinking the 'shortening of days' applies to the second half of the tribulation? Okay, either way let's stick to the last 3 1/2 year [1,260 days] period. 

There would be no flesh saved if those days were not shortened [1,260 days]; the entire human race would be killed and extinct. The Bible states this period lasts exactly 1,260 days, correct? People will be able to track where they are in the tribulation and some of the events to the day with a calendar and a Bible IMO. 

Now here's my $24,000.00 question: If those days were not shortened for the elects sake. When is or where and how are those days shortened? We're those days predetermined to be shortened before the Bible recorded 1,260 days. Will it be less than the 1,260 days recorded in the Bible. Or will those days be shortened supernaturally or how we currently measure a literal 24 hour day? The Lord did substantially lengthen the length of a day recorded two times in the Bible, why not supernaturally shorten the day?

Here is a wild thought of mine, please don't call the loony bin and have me picked up okay 

The world tinkers with time for accuracy, production, coordination and to know where we are in 'time'. We have; global time zones, Greenwich Mean Time (GMT), Zulu time, daylight savings time; corrections to calendars, corrections to atomic clocks. In other words, time is always being tinkered with. Daylight saving time was established if memory serves around WW II, to get an hours extra production time for the war effort.  

All the judgments released during the tribulation do not suddenly stop before the next plague / judgment is released, they continue on and they're complied. One third of daylight hours are going to be lost and stay that way for the later half of the wrath of God. The natural cycle of day and night are going to be lost as we know it. The production and coordination cycles are going to be greatly hampered and chaos will ensure.

It's complicated and would take a page to explain but, the days could be shortened by tinkering and adjusting the clock and the calendar of the new reality of day vs. night cycle, by one third. 

Got to get off, I hear the sirens...

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Dennis1209
nutter spelling error...

[Dennis1209]

19 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Consider this for shortened days.

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Rev. 8:12

With all the catastrophic events in the earlier trumpets, Perhaps the spin of the earth will be increased, and instead of  a 24 hour day we have 16 hour day. One third of the day and one third of the night being removed????

 

Yep, that's another possibility. Think of the effect on God's nature and people if He used a polar shift and sped up or slowed down the earth's rotation. See my long post above on another thought I had before they pick me up.

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Sorry. The Antichrist will be a future Mortal man, nothing more. That he will be a mortal man is clear from (Rev. 13:18). That he will be a mortal man is also clear from the fact that he will be "SLAIN" by Christ at His second advent (Dan. 7:11; Isa. 11:4; 2 Thess. 2:7-8).

If Christ is going to slay him at the second advent, then he must be a mortal man at that time. This proves that he will not be a resurrected immortal man from the dead, or indwelt by Satan. 

 I see your understanding here is firmly rooted, so I can say is, nothing really.   I believe you see the beast and the Antichrist as being the same, a person, a mortal person, and neither are in service of Satan.   

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

"This proves that he will not be a resurrected immortal man from the dead, or indwelt by Satan"  I have no clue what this means or how it fits, anything, so I can say nothing here either.
 

I have never seen any scripture stating that for God to "slay or destroy" someone or something or anything, it must be "mortal" and at once made permanent. I have never seen any scripture that states that death of any kind is a permanent death,  up until the lake of fire at the end of the Lords Day.   Not one soul will perish, not even Satan till then.  

Matthew 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don't believe to be "slayed" or destroyed in this age is an eternal decision, though I believe the  "offices" that have been controlled by Satan will be when Christ returns, and so will no longer be available to him when he is loosed for a short season at the end.  

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Not sure where these fit into the discussion, unless as I stated,  you believe that death of the flesh is a "soul" death, which I do not.  

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 1/20/2020 at 1:41 PM, Walter Goraj jr said:

You mentioned a lot of stuff here which I have to look over. My question for you is: since you believe that God will "rapture" believers before the period  Of Great Tribulation begins, who exactly is going to be down here witnessing the gospel to those who are really going to need it before the end of the world?

Hi Walter,

Exactly. Good point.

The Great Tribulation will be the churches finest hour.....to witness to the unbelievers worldwide. We are caught up AFTER Satan's wrath, BEFORE God's wrath which are the Trumpet and Bowl judgments. 

Here is a question for all those who hold to a pre-trib doctrine:

Acts 3:21 states that Jesus MUST stay in heaven until the times of restitution of all things, which includes the restoration of the theocracy under David's son, which obviously can't begin before or during antichrist's reign. So, the question is: How can there be a pre-trib rapture if Jesus MUST stay in heaven until the times of restitution of all things?

[dhchristian]

56 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yep, that's another possibility. Think of the effect on God's nature and people if He used a polar shift and sped up or slowed down the earth's rotation. See my long post above on another thought I had before they pick me up.

Actually, I think there is scientific evidence that may? back this up. The bible says the earth supported by pillars 4 of them is the presumption. There are four primary forces that hold all matter together. The bible says God will shake the heavens and the earth... Literally this could be an alteration of these forces (Strong, weak, electric, and gravity) Now if the spin of earth is speeding up, what does that do to gravity? Whole lotta shaking going on as the old song puts it.... These forces are at work in the heavens as well. If I were a scientist I would be shaking in my boots if this happened, calling for the rocks to fall on us as the bible says.

Your Idea is not so preposterous as you imagine or I am heading to the same looney bin as you are