Daniel 11

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

@Revelation Man, why are you so insistent that the antichrist has to come from the EU when there is so much Bible prophecy that indicates that the antichrist is not coming from the EU?

Its just the opposite in fact. People follow Men's Ideas like Joel Richardson via the Islam angle or Alexander Hislop {circa 1800's} and his debunked RCC angle. I follow the holy writ of God. Its as plain as day, the holy writ says he arises out of the fourth beasts head and from one of the four generals, we get the Greek rundown of the Kings lineage in Dan. 11, and you can't put all that together, all you can see is Assyrian. Well, I have know about the Assyrian for years and that went into my thinking, but you refuse to look at the full prophetic utterance of God because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas. God doesn't care about OUR IDEAS one whit. He has given us His truths, its up to us to receive those truths, its hard to do when we already have the answers before God has revealed the answers unto us.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

When there are obvious contradictions between my beliefs and what the Bible says, I always trust the Bible more than myself and go back to reexamine my assumptions and find out where I went wrong.  I have had to do this multiple times over the past few years before I was finally able to reject the incorrect teachings about the end times that I learned from my church and the Bible studies and books that I read. 

Well you are not doing it here because the Anti-Christ is an Assyrian Turk born in Greece, who comes to power in the E.U. Hes not a Muslim, Dan. 11:37 tells us hes an atheist, not a Muslim. No Muslim Nation has the power to be a world power, no Muslim leader will be able to come to an Agreement {agreement in Hebrew means Covenant} with Israel. So you assume these things. for some reason, without thinking them through, and to boot, they don't fit the bible. I have been called to Prophecy 33 years ago, preaching for over 30 years, I am not some fly by my pants guy guessing about these things, when I don't know I stay silent, when I know, I open my big fat mouth and proclaim thus saith the Lord and 1000 horses can't get me to change, its called understanding the unction of the holy spirit. So you followed the MEN'S TRADITIONS instead of allowing God to lead you because the Islam angle is wrong as is the RCC angle, both are deceptions by Satan. 

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Because I did this and listened to the corrections of the Holy Spirit, the Lord was able to show me a timeline of end time events that not only fits with every end time prophecy I have examined, it also shows how Satan and the antichrist will use the incorrect teachings to deceive the world into believing that the antichrist really is Jesus returned in the flesh.

 

The Anti-Christ doesn't even try to claim hes Jesus, that comes from people not understanding John 5:43, you see I know all these angles because I have had to overcome these ideas, Jesus in John 5:43 is speaking specifically about the Pharisees of his time, they of course rejected Jesus BUT.....they being learned men knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast, and thus they were looking for a Political Savior because they thought the Messiah was a Political Conquering King not the Son of God, so they choose people too be the Messiah just before 70 AD, trying to force their own rescue, not realizing the Son of God was Jesus whom they crucified, who was their Messiah. So John 5:43 has ALREADY been fulfilled !! But yet we have people who think this means the Anti-Christ will try to make himself known as Jesus {which he may do but only to try and deceive the Jews hiding in Petra to come out, and that might not even be him, it might be the False Prophet just lying to the Jews in Petra}, but as per to the World, he wants to be worshiped as god. Hes a Gentile, so he can't be the Messiah. 

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

The beliefs that I had to abandon include, but are not limited to the following:

• The Tribulation will start with a peace treaty in the Middle East.
• The antichrist comes from Europe and the beast is the EU.
• The church will be raptured before the tribulation starts.
• The church will return to rule with Jesus on the Earth during the Millennial Kingdom.
• Armageddon is a battle between God and man, and Jesus will lead God's forces to victory.

Looks like you you took a wrong turn. Of course the facts aren't with you on any of these cases. The Church does return with Jesus but they don't rule on earth, those who are killed/Martyred rule with Christ 1000 years, the Church must therefore return to Heaven to finish off the New Jerusalem or do something, we are just not on earth it seems.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I am confident that I will get a lot of flak for saying that these five things are all false.  All five of these are widely held beliefs and there does appear to be Biblical support for all of them.  However a close examination of Biblical prophecy will show that none of these is true.  The belief about the battle of Armageddon is especially heinous because the antichrist is going to be leading one of the armies in that battle and when he secures the victory, Christians around the world will believe that the antichrist truly is Jesus in his second coming and will abandon their faith in the true God in order to worship the antichrist.

The Rapture is just as sure as I am 55 years old. You have allowed whispers to whisper these things to you sir. It happens 

Islam is a part of the Harlot that is KILLED OFF in Rev. 17:16. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are way off on your timeline if you think verse 16 is the SAME KING as in the end times verses 36-45. I assume you meant its the same style whereas there is a third person involved. But I don't see that in either case. 

Dan. 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches. 14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall. 15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand. 16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

This of course is the Fifth Syrian War. Antiochus III returned some years later with a much larger army and took the land of Israel by force.

Dan. 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

That's interesting. If true, and I have no reason to doubt you did the proper research, you are proving the third actor exists and is from the Seleucid region. Antiochus III is a grandson of Seleucus and Laodice. As is Antiochus IV, who some say is the type of the end time beast. Jewish histories record the terror of Antiochus IV in the blasphemy of the Temple. 

So, nice job proving the narrative in Dan 11 is following the Seleucid rulers as the 'willful king' who is the beast and therefore more than likely Seleucid.

And yeah, it wasn't a timeline. I find those to be elusive in hard fact. Scholars differ as to dates in many cases as written records may be sketchy or non existent. I don't know if you heard but there was a Sumerian clay or stone tablet that was supposedly found and interpreted that claims Sumerian kings ruled for 10's of thousands of years each. Not sure that can be reliable. 

But maybe you have found good reliable info on timelines. 

[John n Claudia]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Its just the opposite in fact. People follow Men's Ideas like Joel Richardson via the Islam angle or Alexander Hislop {circa 1800's} and his debunked RCC angle. I follow the holy writ of God. Its as plain as day, the holy writ says he arises out of the fourth beasts head and from one of the four generals, we get the Greek rundown of the Kings lineage in Dan. 11, and you can't put all that together, all you can see is Assyrian. Well, I have know about the Assyrian for years and that went into my thinking, but you refuse to look at the full prophetic utterance of God because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas. God doesn't care about OUR IDEAS one whit. He has given us His truths, its up to us to receive those truths, its hard to do when we already have the answers before God has revealed the answers unto us.

Because of your euro-centrism you ignore the fact that the Holy Land is more important to God than any other place on the Earth.  In fact it is more important than all the rest of the planet.  This is why you have restricted the Roman Empire to the Western Roman Empire and do not recognize that the Eastern half of the empire became the head of the fourth beast (the Roman Empire) when Diocletian split the empire in two, kept the eastern half for himself and ruled from Nicomedia (modern day's Izmit, Turkey).  As far as the antichrist coming from one of the four generals that split Alexander's empire, there is a lot of overlap between the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire and the land controlled by any of the four of Alexander's generals.  There is no reason to choose Greece for the birthplace of the antichrist unless you are stretching the scriptures to try and make prophecy happen in a place where you feel comfortable.

You also ignore that there were seven heads of the beast in Revelation and the last head that received a mortal was healed.  The seven heads means that there is a series of seven empires, each one defeating the previous empire and all seven empires occurring one after the other.  The last head receiving the mortal wound means that the seventh empire will be resurrected as the empire of the antichrist.  Instead of accepting what scripture says, you chose to stop the empire system at six since the sixth empire happened to control a lot of land in a part of the world that you like while the seventh empire lived in the same area as the first five.  It is the seventh head of the beast in Revelation that will be resurrected not the sixth and the sooner we lay aside our prejudices against that part of the world, the sooner the Holy Spirit will be able to guide us and show us the truth about what has been revealed in prophecy.  God tells us where the end time events will be centered and none of the events involve Europe.   Closing our eyes to what is said in the Bible and putting a gap in the empire system until it is resurrected with the empire of the antichrist. 

For the record, the seventh head of the beast is the empire that defeated the (Eastern) Roman Empire.  That empire received its mortal wound when it sided with the Axis and was defeated in WW1 and it will be resurrected when ten countries (the ten toes in Daniel and the ten crowns in Revelation) join together to recreate it.

Ignoring the seventh head of the beast and misinterpreting the sixth head to be the Western Roman Empire rather than the Eastern Roman Empire that retained control of the Holy Land ignores what happened in world history as well as the Bible's focus on the Middle East.  The western world may consider Europe to be the place that reached the pinnacle of knowledge and denigrate the accomplishments and history of the rest of the world, but we need to accept the fact that for some reason God chose the Holy Land for His people and for His home and that is the part of the world where end time events will be centered.

 

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well you are not doing it here because the Anti-Christ is an Assyrian Turk born in Greece, who comes to power in the E.U. Hes not a Muslim, Dan. 11:37 tells us hes an atheist, not a Muslim. No Muslim Nation has the power to be a world power, no Muslim leader will be able to come to an Agreement {agreement in Hebrew means Covenant} with Israel. So you assume these things. for some reason, without thinking them through, and to boot, they don't fit the bible. I have been called to Prophecy 33 years ago, preaching for over 30 years, I am not some fly by my pants guy guessing about these things, when I don't know I stay silent, when I know, I open my big fat mouth and proclaim thus saith the Lord and 1000 horses can't get me to change, its called understanding the unction of the holy spirit. So you followed the MEN'S TRADITIONS instead of allowing God to lead you because the Islam angle is wrong as is the RCC angle, both are deceptions by Satan. 

Let us take  look at what Daniel 11:37 tells us about the antichrist.  The KJV can be a little difficult, so let us look at the ESV instead:

 

36"And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. 38He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.

 

It is true that verse 37 says that the antichrist will "magnify himself above all" or that he will claim to be better than any of the gods people have worshiped in the past and that he is even better than God.  But now look at verses 38 and 39.  There we see that "He shall honor the god of fortresses ... A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor ... He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god."  This is saying that the antichrist will honor a god and this means that he is not going to be an atheist.  In context, verses 37 - 39 are saying that the antichrist is going to introduce a new religion where he is the highest god.  The easiest way to do this is to have a religion whose beliefs are similar to the beliefs of the existing religions and then modify the existing beliefs to "correct" them.  This is what the Romans did when they integrated the pagan religions of Rome and Christianity.  I cannot say exactly how the antichrist will modify the beliefs, but he will use our current religions against us.  Both Christianity and Islam prophesy that Jesus (or Isa) will return bodily to the earth, the antichrist will use that belief together with the miracles he will do (like calling fire out of heaven) to convince us that he is Jesus and will then correct the "mistakes" that have crept into the Bible and Quran over the years.

 

You are correct that without supernatural intervention no Muslim country today could become a superpower.  It is also true that in 1947 without supernatural intervention Israel could not become a nation in their traditional homeland.  Despite this, the nation Israel was created in 1948, just as was predicted in the Bible.  I personally believe the Bible over my own reasoning and what I see with my eyes.  The Bible says that the seventh empire will be reborn and I believe it because the Bible says it will happen.  It does not matter that it seems impossible.  Bible prophecy has a way of coming true no matter what odds people give it.

 

You are correct that a Muslim nation would never be able to create a peace treaty with Israel.  This is also true about a European nation.  The hatred between the Arabs and Jews goes back thousands of years and is not going to be resolved until one or the other is dead.  Please examine your beliefs about the supposed peace treaty that will be signed.  Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the treaty will be between the Jews and their enemies.  The strong covenant that is made is not a treaty making peace in the Middle East, but rather is a treaty that unites the ten countries and recreates the seventh empire as a Muslim Caliphate so that they can attack Israel.  Satan has been extremely successful in twisting Christian beliefs about the Tribulation.  The Tribulation period is described as the most difficult time the Jews have ever experienced on the Earth.  Given this, how can anyone claim with a straight face that for half of this most difficult time Israel will live in peace with her neighbors?  A time of peace does not strike me as difficult at all, let alone the most difficult in all of Israel's history.

 

Thank you for the insight into your history.  Knowing that you have devoted your life to the beliefs you hold allows me to understand why you are so vocal in defending them even when they contradict the scriptures.  I am 53 and have also held many beliefs over the years that have become strongholds that held me back from seeing what God wanted me to see.  I pray that you do not take my posts as a personal attack against you, but see them as they are intended.  I am trying to shine the light of the Word on your beliefs in order that you may understand what is actually said in the scriptures.  With regard to Biblical prophecy, the most difficult belief I had to abandon was the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls formed a single sequence of events and the first trumpet could not sound until after the seventh seal was opened.  I struggled with this and that delayed my understanding of Revelation for years.  However, once I accepted that this was the only way to reconcile the multiple raptures described in the book, I was finally able to see how all of these fit together.  As world events unfold and the Holy Spirit gives me insight into what is happening, my understanding increases and with each new revelation I give glory to God.  I pray that you will open yourself up in the same way.

 

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Anti-Christ doesn't even try to claim hes Jesus, that comes from people not understanding John 5:43, you see I know all these angles because I have had to overcome these ideas, Jesus in John 5:43 is speaking specifically about the Pharisees of his time, they of course rejected Jesus BUT.....they being learned men knew that Rome was the Fourth Beast, and thus they were looking for a Political Savior because they thought the Messiah was a Political Conquering King not the Son of God, so they choose people too be the Messiah just before 70 AD, trying to force their rescue, not realizing the Son of God was Jesus whom the crucified. So John 5:43 has ALREADY been fulfilled !! But yet we have people who thinks this means the Anti-Christ will try to make himself known as Jesus {which he does do but only to try and deceive the Jews hiding in Petra to come out, and that might not even be him, it might be the False Prophet just lying to the Jews in Petra}, but as per to the World, he wants to be worshiped as god. Hes a Gentile, he can't be the Messiah. 

John told us that in his days there were already many antichrists.  Many biblical prophecies have multiple fulfillments and it is unclear exactly which one is the final fulfillment until it occurs and we see it for what it is.  I base my beliefs not just on John 5:43 but also on Daniel 11 that you brought up earlier.  Most of the time there are multiple prophecies that each shed a slightly different light on what is happening and unless you use all of them you can easily be misled into an incorrect belief.

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Looks like you you took a wrong turn. Of course the facts aren't with you on any of these cases. The Church does return with Jesus but they din't rule on earth, those who are killed/Martyred rule with Christ 1000 years, the Church must therefore return to Heaven to finish off the New Jerusalem.

One of the areas in which we disagree is with regard to the time of the rapture.  I fall in the post-trib camp while you are pre-trib.  The thing that finally convinced me that the pre-trib view could not be true is the combination of Revelation 10:7 with Ephesians 3:9 - 10.  Since the church is the mystery, the hidden plan of God (Ephesians) and this is not going to end until the seventh trumpet (Revelation), this must mean that the church is around for the first six trumpets and cannot be raptured before the tribulation starts.

With regard to who rules with Christ, this is going to be the entire church.  Paul tells us that the dead in Christ will rise first and then those of us still living will meet Jesus in the air.  The entire church will come together.  This includes the living and the dead regardless of how they died.  The church does not return to finish off New Jerusalem.  The work that Jesus does is always complete.  He completed EVERYTHING that he was meant to do while He was on the Earth and He will also complete EVERYTHING he was meant to do while He was in Heaven for the last 2000 years.  Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for us, not that He was going to start a construction project and would bring us in to finish it.  The Church will rule and reign with Christ in the completed New Jerusalem when He comes for us.  The Church rules and reigns with Christ in New Jerusalem and as a shadow or reflection of that glorious kingdom, the Prince and the Jews will rule and reign on the Earth during the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture is just as sure as I am 55 years old. You have allowed whispers to whisper these things to you sir. 

Islam is a part of the Harlot that is KILLED OFF in Rev. 17:16. 

We agree that the rapture is going to happen.  We just disagree by about seven years with regard to when it is going to happen.

With regard to Islam being killed off in Revelation 17:16, Jesus has already told us that a divided kingdom cannot stand.  Satan and the antichrist are both part of the same kingdom and Islam has been a might force in Satan's hand.  The antichrist will not divide Satan's kingdom by destroying the most powerful tool in Satan's arsenal.

With regard to the five beliefs I cited before, let me clarify a little:

• The Tribulation will start with a peace treaty in the Middle East.
  • The Tribulation is going to be the time of the most intense persecution that the Jews have ever experienced.  This cannot be reconciled with half of the time being a time of peace.  The strong treaty that is negotiated is a treaty that will unify ten countries and embolden them in their hatred of Israel.  This will lead to the start of a war that Israel will lose after a little less than 3.5 years.
• The antichrist comes from Europe and the beast is the EU.
  • The antichrist comes from Assyria as prophesied in Micah and Isiah.
  • The beast is the seventh head of the beast that received a mortal wound that John saw in Revelation.  This is the empire that conquered the Eastern Roman Empire in 1453 and which we know as the Ottoman Empire, a Muslim Caliphate.
• The church will be raptured before the tribulation starts.
  • As shown earlier in this post, the church will be raptured with the seventh and last trumpet at the end of the Tribulation.  It will also be raptured at the seventh seal and the seventh bowl because all of these occur at the same time.  The seals, trumpets and bowls form three separate sequences of events, not one long sequence.
• The church will return to rule with Jesus on the Earth during the Millennial Kingdom.
  • Jesus and the church will rule and reign in New Jerusalem up in the air while the prince (from Ezekiel) and the Jews will rule and reign here on Earth.
• Armageddon is a battle between God and man, and Jesus will lead God's forces to victory.
  • Armageddon is a battle between the forces of the antichrist and the forces of the king of the east.  Each side will also bring their allies into the battle and that is why all the armies of the earth will gather.  After the antichrist defeats the king of the east, his empire will rejoice because after nearly seven years of war they have finally defeated all of their enemies just as they believe was prophesied in the Bible.  They will be celebrating their victory and looking forward to 1000 years of peace where they rule the Earth when Jesus returns.  It is this victory that convinces many of the holdouts that the antichrist really is Jesus in his second coming and the whole world will worship him.   This is exactly what is prophesied in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.

 

[Revelation Man]

23 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

Because of your euro-centrism you ignore the fact that the Holy Land is more important to God than any other place on the Earth.  In fact it is more important than all the rest of the planet.  This is why you have restricted the Roman Empire to the Western Roman Empire and do not recognize that the Eastern half of the empire became the head of the fourth beast (the Roman Empire) when Diocletian split the empire in two, kept the eastern half for himself and ruled from Nicomedia (modern day's Izmit, Turkey).

No I don't, I see it for what it is to God......IRRELEVANT.....Israel was as Dead Men's Bones by this time, you can't seem to grasp that brother. God doesn't see things like you in a linear manner. Why do you think the Beast and Statue both have a hiatus ? The Church Age man !! Israel's 70th week is SUSPENDED !! The Prophecy is about 70 weeks of Judgment, 69 came to pass with Christ, the LAST WEEK will come to pass after the Rapture of the Gentile Church, that is what is mean by the fullness of the Gentiles if you read Romans 11, we know this because Romans chapters 9-11 talk about God doing what He wills with the potters wheel, not what the Jews thought He should do.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Not EVERY Jew, but ALL Israel points to the 1/3 who REPENT, they will be ALL Israel, they are the 144,000 which only means 12 x 12,0000 or FULLNESS since 12 represents fullness. So God calls the Jews to repent but ONLY AFTER the Rapture of the Gentile Church AND the Partial portion of Jews like Paul, Peter and all the Messianic Jews over the last 2000 some odd years. That is why Israel is only blinded IN PART !! 

After the Rapture Elijah is sent back to turn Israel back unto God, Malachi 4:5-6 tells us this happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord {1260 event}. God could care less about the land man, its all about the People, Israel are THE PEOPLE, not the land. That land will one day be consumed by fire when this earth is deserted and the New Jerusalem comes down.

36 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

As far as the antichrist coming from one of the four generals that split Alexander's empire, there is a lot of overlap between the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire and the land controlled by any of the four of Alexander's generals.  There is no reason to choose Greece for the birthplace of the antichrist unless you are stretching the scriptures to try and make prophecy happen in a place where you feel comfortable.

You miss the forest for the trees, he must come from the FOURTH BEAST so ONLY Greece fits because ONLY Greece is in the E.U. It has nothing to do about land the E.U. ruled !! That's done by people who don't understand how Prophecy of God is done brother, they try to warp it to fit all things. 

40 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

You also ignore that there were seven heads of the beast in Revelation and the last head that received a mortal was healed.

That's just wrongheaded........you imply the 7th head was healed, nowhere in Rev. 13 does it cite what you just stated, just the opposite in reality, it cites in REVERSE ORDER {John's looking back in time} the Leopard {Greece}, the Bear {Persia} and the Lion {Babylon} then it says ONE OF THE Heads was Wounded, without citing the Roman Empire Kingdom its OBVIOUS this is the Roman Empire Kingdom that was wounded, that is why its in the Mediterranean Sea for 2000 some odd years, and only reemerges as HEALED when the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel IN THE LAND AGAIN !! Israel has not been occupied in the land of Israel since AD 70 !! God doesn't see things like you do. His ways are not our ways, His 70th week Judgment was suspended 2000 some odd years ago. Israel WILL REPENT during the 70th week. Israel will be Conquered during the 70th week, and this tyrant from Europe will once again rule the Jews in Israel AND the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. 

46 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

The seven heads means that there is a series of seven empires, each one defeating the previous empire and all seven empires occurring one after the other.

Again, YOUR WORDS and YOUR ASSUMPTIONS not Gods. Each one doesn't have to defeat the other one and they don't have to be liner. Its just your thinking, not Gods. You say things but God shows what He means. The 70th week comes 2000 years later, the Scarlet Colored Beast who BEASTED over Israel is Apollyon, and hes now in the Bottomless Pit. He WAS.......IS NOT.......YET IS.

49 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

The last head receiving the mortal wound means that the seventh empire will be resurrected as the empire of the antichrist.  Instead of accepting what scripture says, you chose to stop the empire system at six since the sixth empire happened to control a lot of land in a part of the world that you like while the seventh empire lived in the same area as the first five.  It is the seventh head of the beast in Revelation that will be resurrected not the sixth and the sooner we lay aside our prejudices against that part of the world, the sooner the Holy Spirit will be able to guide us and show us the truth about what has been revealed in prophecy.  God tells us where the end time events will be centered and none of the events involve Europe.   Closing our eyes to what is said in the Bible and putting a gap in the empire system until it is resurrected with the empire of the antichrist. 

I choose to follow the holy writ. Some people are not called to Prophecy, and are just wasting time trying to understand it tbh. 

52 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

You are correct that a Muslim nation would never be able to create a peace treaty with Israel.  This is also true about a European nation.

It already exists GOOGLE European Neighborhood Policy. The E.U. has 7 year deals in place now with Israel and all these Mediterranean Nations, GOOGLE IT.

[John n Claudia]

 

22 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No I don't, I see it for what it is to God......IRRELEVANT.....Israel was as Dead Men's Bones by this time, you can't seem to grasp that brother. God doesn't see things like you in a linear manner. Why do you think the Beast and Statue both have a hiatus ?

@Revelation Man, the church was grafted into the vine, but we have not replaced the Jews.  They are dearly loved by the Father and He will graft them back in at the proper time.  The promises made to the Jews are for the Jews, the Church did not take the Jew's place in God's heart and He will honor all of the promises that were made to them.  God loves the Church as well and the Church has its own set of promises that God will honor, but we are not the Jews and should not presume to usurp their promises.  God made the Holy Land desolate for as long as the Jews were dispersed and after they returned to the land, God has made it blossom.  The land and the people are both very important to the Lord, and God's plan for the World went forward even while the Jews were dispersed.

The Beast and the Statue have a hiatus because the empire system will be disbanded after the last of the empires (the seventh empire) only to reappear with the antichrist.  You agree that the Roman Empire is the sixth head, this means that there must be one more empire before the system goes away.

37 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Not EVERY Jew, but ALL Israel points to the 1/3 who REPENT, they will be ALL Israel, they are the 144,000 which only means 12 x 12,0000 or FULLNESS since 12 represents fullness. So God calls the Jews to repent but ONLY AFTER the Rapture of the Gentile Church AND the Partial portion of Jews like Paul, Peter and all the Messianic Jews over the last 2000 some odd years. That is why Israel is only blinded IN PART !! 

After the Rapture Elijah is sent back to turn Israel back unto God, Malachi 4:5-6 tells us this happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord {1260 event}. God could care less about the land man, its all about the People, Israel are THE PEOPLE, not the land. That land will one day be consumed by fire when this earth is deserted and the New Jerusalem comes down.

Look more closely at the Romans 11:26, specifically the very last clause.  The deliverer (Jesus) will turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel) when He returns.  The Jews as a group will not accept Jesus as Messiah until after He comes back and completes all of the tasks that the Messiah is supposed to accomplish.  Jesus needs to defeat the enemies of the Jews, reunite all twelve tribes and set up the Millennial Kingdom.  Only after this happens, not sometime in the middle of the Tribulation, will the Jews accept Jesus as Messiah and worship.

Now let us look at Malachi 4:5 - 6 in the ESV:

5"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Who exactly is Elijah in this prophecy?  In Matthew 11:14 Jesus referred to John the Baptist as the Elijah who is to come.  John tried to turn the hearts of the Jews with his preaching and after John was unsuccessful and the Jews rejected both his message and Jesus, God struck the land with destruction for nearly 1900 years before restoring it once His wrath against the Jews was fully satisfied.  Hasn't this prophecy already been fulfilled?

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

You miss the forest for the trees, he must come from the FOURTH BEAST so ONLY Greece fits because ONLY Greece is in the E.U. It has nothing to do about land the E.U. ruled !! That's done by people who don't understand how Prophecy of God is done brother, they try to warp it to fit all things.

And you ignore that the head of the fourth beast was the Eastern Roman or the Byzantine Empire.  Europe will play a part in the end time events and they will eventually be a part of the antichrist's empire, but it will not be the place where the empire arises.

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

That's just wrongheaded........you imply the 7th head was healed, nowhere in Rev. 13 does it cite what you just stated, just the opposite in reality, it cites in REVERSE ORDER {John's looking back in time} the Leopard {Greece}, the Bear {Persia} and the Lion {Babylon} then it says ONE OF THE Heads was Wounded, without citing the Roman Empire Kingdom its OBVIOUS this is the Roman Empire Kingdom that was wounded, that is why its in the Mediterranean Sea for 2000 some odd years, and only reemerges as HEALED when the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel IN THE LAND AGAIN !! Israel has not been occupied in the land of Israel since AD 70 !! God doesn't see things like you do. His ways are not our ways, His 70th week Judgment was suspended 2000 some odd years ago. Israel WILL REPENT during the 70th week. Israel will be Conquered during the 70th week, and this tyrant from Europe will once again rule the Jews in Israel AND the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. 

Why is it obvious that the Roman Empire is the empire that got healed?  It is true that the Roman Empire lasted around 2000 years, but it was killed in 1453 and there are no remains of that once mighty empire.  In the west, Italy changes governments every year and is not even considered a European power, let alone a world power.  In the east, there is no place where people remember the glorious days of the Roman empire.  If anything, they remember the days of the Ottomans and how ruthless they were.

Of course Israel will be conquered.  They will flee Jerusalem around the time of the abomination.  This is explicitly stated.  Nowhere does the Bible say that the conquering empire will come from Europe.  Instead the Bible tells us the conquering empire will come from Assyria.

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, YOUR WORDS and YOUR ASSUMPTIONS not Gods. Each one doesn't have to defeat the other one and they don't have to be liner. Its just your thinking, not Gods. You say things but God shows what He means. The 70th week comes 2000 years later, the Scarlet Colored Beast who BEASTED over Israel is Apollyon, and hes now in the Bottomless Pit. He WAS.......IS NOT.......YET IS.

I agree that I am assuming that the pattern that exists between the first six heads should also be applied to the seventh head.  I make this assumption because the seven heads are all on a single beast.  In contrast to this, you are making the assumption that the pattern that applies to the first six heads of the beast should NOT apply to the seventh head.  I think that my assumption is more consistent with how we should approach the interpretation of prophecy than assuming the pattern will change with the very last head of the beast.

We agree that the first six empires were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.  We also agree that all these empires controlled the Holy Land and that each one defeated the previous empire (other than Egypt which did not have a predecessor).  We also agree that these are six of the heads of the beast John saw in Revelation.  That beast had seven heads and John does not distinguish between those heads, so yes, I assume the pattern of empires should continue through all of the heads and the transition between heads all should be similar.  I claim that the two properties that define a head of the beast are the two things that we agree happened with the first six heads.  Based on that, I look for the seventh head to have those same properties and it is immediately apparent that only the Ottoman Empire meets those conditions.

On the other hand you say that after the sixth head (the Roman Empire), God put an end to the empire system until the antichrist resurrects the sixth head with the empire of Apollyon which the antichrist will rule.  How can the seventh head be the resurrection of the sixth head?  The seventh head should be an empire in its own right just as the first six empires were.  If your interpretation is correct, then which of the empires received the fatal wound and was healed?  If this was the Roman Empire and the sixth head there is no need for a seventh head of the beast.  If it is the seventh head, the empire of Apollyon and the antichrist, then when will that empire be killed and who will take over after the antichrist is dead?  Without one additional empire after the Roman Empire, your beast is either missing a head or one of the heads never received a fatal wound.  In either case it differs from what John saw in his vision and cannot be a correct interpretation of the vision.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

I choose to follow the holy writ. Some people are not called to Prophecy, and are just wasting time trying to understand it tbh. 

Enough said.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

It already exists GOOGLE European Neighborhood Policy. The E.U. has 7 year deals in place now with Israel and all these Mediterranean Nations, GOOGLE IT.

I am assuming that you are referring to the agreement Israel signed on April 11, 2005 that was renewed three years later.  If the peace treaty was signed 15 years ago, then how come Jesus has not yet returned?  Your theory is that 3.5 years after the peace treaty, the antichrist will be revealed and Israel will flee Jerusalem.  We are well past 3.5 years and last time I checked Israel was still a country and was doing very well.

The last of the countries in the Middle East area to sign this treaty was Egypt which signed on March 6, 2007.  Even if we accept this date for when the peace treaty was signed we are more than 9 years overdue for the abomination to occur.  Doesn't this indicate to you that your belief in a peace treaty leading to the abomination is incorrect and that you should examine your assumptions?  Your own evidence is showing that your beliefs must be wrong.  Isn't it time to be academically honest and go back to your assumptions to see where they are wrong?

[Charlie744]

OK.... I can candidly confirm that I am completely lost!!!! I went back and read through some great comments from many folks to the original post by Revelations Man -Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step. So much information and knowledge here in this forum!  Included in that discussion / thread I believe I saw a reference to the 2300 days (evenings and mornings).... not sure if I caught this correctly but I am not sure if / how this would relate to chapter 11... (if I misunderstood, please accept my apology).

Unfortunately, I am still unable to understand 11.  I have attempted to section 11 into at least two parts: Section 1 would begin with verse 5 and would begin sometime during the pagan Roman period (I know everyone / most / many contend this begins with the post Alexander powers). The second section would consist of the papal Roman period or power where the "little horn" comes to power. Then chapter 12 picks gets us to the end of time and the second coming.

The basis for all of this is as follows: the last two chapters should address three things: 1) what will happen to Daniel's people (Jews), 2) the rise of the "little horn" and ALL his attempts / actions / events, etc. to corrupt the Word of God and His Plan of Salvation, and 3) the end times (chapter 12).

Consequently, I am then attempting to take the first section of papal Rome and identify some actors and events that might be more easily identified and then try to fill in the blanks if you will. But as mentioned, I have having some serious difficulty. I am sure everyone will comment and reply that is because I am ignoring the starting point  - post Alexander Greece and Antiochus, etc. (there are only four kingdoms and the last three are Medes - Persia, Greece and Rome. In both chapter 8 and here in 11 (first four verses), they are specifically identified, and in my opinion, are complete - they are behind us in the prophecies.  And everything after verse 4 should provide details of the fourth kingdom only - those events and actors that are directly affecting the three areas of concern mentioned above - Daniel's people, little horn, and the end of times. Also, I might mention another point which I certainly can not prove and would not attempt: I believe there were approximately 400 years or so where there really was no further prophecies or prophets sent to the Jews prior to the coming of the Messiah. Essentially, it was dark for that time. To me this also identifies (bad choice of words) with the "transition" period from the 3rd and the 4th kingdoms - it is also a dead period and we might / should try and identify the meaning of verse 5 and beyond as beginning with the 4th kingdom.

Again, this is why I am attempting to unpack and learn 11 by searching for the proper actors and events belonging to verses 5 to 21 initially (the reason I stopped at 21 is because I think this might refer to the little horn and then I can work back to verse 5...).

Sorry for the long winded comments but if I am going to ask for anyone's assistance, and I see from the responses so far it is going to be difficult to get anyone to put aside the post Alexander beliefs, I should provide you my reasoning for my approach.

Finally, I would welcome any comments or thoughts since there is obviously so much talent here, and thank all of you in advance! In an unrelated question (at least to me), does anyone what to offer their opinion on the 23000 mornings and evenings? I don't believe there is any agreement on this subject..... 

Thank you so much and I hope to hear from anyone soon, best wishes, Charlie

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

@Revelation Man, the church was grafted into the vine, but we have not replaced the Jews.  They are dearly loved by the Father and He will graft them back in at the proper time.  The promises made to the Jews are for the Jews, the Church did not take the Jew's place in God's heart and He will honor all of the promises that were made to them.  God loves the Church as well and the Church has its own set of promises that God will honor, but we are not the Jews and should not presume to usurp their promises.  God made the Holy Land desolate for as long as the Jews were dispersed and after they returned to the land, God has made it blossom.  The land and the people are both very important to the Lord, and God's plan for the World went forward even while the Jews were dispersed.

 

You MISSED the whole point. Its about THE TIMING, not the Jews vs, the Gentiles. We ALL come to God by faith alone, irregardless of the TIMING that we come to Christ in. Thus the Jews are BLINDED until the Gentile Church's fullness comes in as per the nation of Israel. But both Jews {IN PART} and Gentiles make up the Church by coming to Christ in faith. Abraham BELIEVED God so his salvation was also by faith. Likewise, after the Rapture the Remnant Church {Gentiles who get saved after the Rapture = REMNANT Church} comes to Christ by faith as do the Jews who Repent like Zechariah 13:8-9 says {1/3 repent} so all men come to God by Faith alone, thus both Jews and Gentiles are the same, BUT....As a Nation the Jews are Blinded until AFTER the Rapture !!

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

@Revelation Man, the church was grafted into the vine, but we have not replaced the Jews.  They are dearly loved by the Father and He will graft them back in at the proper time.  The promises made to the Jews are for the Jews, the Church did not take the Jew's place in God's heart and He will honor all of the promises that were made to them.  God loves the Church as well and the Church has its own set of promises that God will honor, but we are not the Jews and should not presume to usurp their promises.  God made the Holy Land desolate for as long as the Jews were dispersed and after they returned to the land, God has made it blossom.  The land and the people are both very important to the Lord, and God's plan for the World went forward even while the Jews were dispersed.

 

Because the Beast is DEAD.......Until the Church Departs {2 Thess. 2} he that WITHHOLDS WILL WITHHOLD.

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Look more closely at the Romans 11:26, specifically the very last clause.  The deliverer (Jesus) will turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel) when He returns.  The Jews as a group will not accept Jesus as Messiah until after He comes back and completes all of the tasks that the Messiah is supposed to accomplish.  Jesus needs to defeat the enemies of the Jews, reunite all twelve tribes and set up the Millennial Kingdom.  Only after this happens, not sometime in the middle of the Tribulation, will the Jews accept Jesus as Messiah and worship.

 

The Jews Repent BEFORE the Day of the Lord which happens at the 1260 event. So the Jews must repent BEFORE the AoD {1290 event} happens in order to understand they MUST FLEE Judea when they see this sign, then 30 days later the 1260 happens, but the Two-witnesses show up 75 days before the 1260 at the 1335. Everything is BACKWARDS from what you think, each number is how many days it is from each NUMBER until these wonders end or the Second Coming. 

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Now let us look at Malachi 4:5 - 6 in the ESV:

5"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Who exactly is Elijah in this prophecy?  In Matthew 11:14 Jesus referred to John the Baptist as the Elijah who is to come.  John tried to turn the hearts of the Jews with his preaching and after John was unsuccessful and the Jews rejected both his message and Jesus, God struck the land with destruction for nearly 1900 years before restoring it once His wrath against the Jews was fully satisfied.  Hasn't this prophecy already been fulfilled?

This again is you not understanding the scriptures. If you read all the Gospels you will see Jesus is not saying John was Elijah, the Angel specifically tells Johns dad he isn't Elijah, and Jesus is making a point about John having done his job, he did the EXACT SAME THING Elijah will do, the difference is its not Israel time to repent. Go read Luke ch. 1, you will see, John is not Elijah.

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Now let us look at Malachi 4:5 - 6 in the ESV:

5"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Who exactly is Elijah in this prophecy?  In Matthew 11:14 Jesus referred to John the Baptist as the Elijah who is to come.  John tried to turn the hearts of the Jews with his preaching and after John was unsuccessful and the Jews rejected both his message and Jesus, God struck the land with destruction for nearly 1900 years before restoring it once His wrath against the Jews was fully satisfied.  Hasn't this prophecy already been fulfilled?

I am done debating with you, if you can't see it that's on you.

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Why is it obvious that the Roman Empire is the empire that got healed?  It is true that the Roman Empire lasted around 2000 years, but it was killed in 1453 and there are no remains of that once mighty empire.  In the west, Italy changes governments every year and is not even considered a European power, let alone a world power.  In the east, there is no place where people remember the glorious days of the Roman empire.  If anything, they remember the days of the Ottomans and how ruthless they were.

Of course Israel will be conquered.  They will flee Jerusalem around the time of the abomination.  This is explicitly stated.  Nowhere does the Bible say that the conquering empire will come from Europe.  Instead the Bible tells us the conquering empire will come from Assyria.

Its the BEAST SYSTEM that Got Healed, Rome was just at the helm when it became wounded. The Beast System is Satan's Dark Kingdom man. The Anti-Christ HEALS the Beast System, not Rome per se, thee problem is you don't grasp the clues God is giving us, the Little Horn ARISES out of the Fourth Beast, NOT the Fourth Beasts territory, which could have been the 3rd Beasts TERRITORY, or the 2nd Beasts TERRITORY, its about the Fourth Beasts HOME TERRITORY !! Else it could have come out of any of the Four Beasts  Head !! People try way too hard to make their ideas fit God's truths, when God does what He does for specific reasons. The Fourth Head is the Roman/European Kingdom, thus when the Fourth Beast is mentioned its not talking about half the world that they conquered, its speaking about their Euro Centric homeland. Thus he must arise out of Greece because of Dan 8, thus Dan. 11 now makes sense. I don't just say things are of God because I guessed. So you keep repeating your Islam angle, and I will just let you keep thinking it I shall jot debate you on it anymore, its a waste of my time.

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I agree that I am assuming that the pattern that exists between the first six heads should also be applied to the seventh head.  I make this assumption because the seven heads are all on a single beast.  In contrast to this, you are making the assumption that the pattern that applies to the first six heads of the beast should NOT apply to the seventh head.  I think that my assumption is more consistent with how we should approach the interpretation of prophecy than assuming the pattern will change with the very last head of the beast.

We agree that the first six empires were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.  We also agree that all these empires controlled the Holy Land and that each one defeated the previous empire (other than Egypt which did not have a predecessor).  We also agree that these are six of the heads of the beast John saw in Revelation.  That beast had seven heads and John does not distinguish between those heads, so yes, I assume the pattern of empires should continue through all of the heads and the transition between heads all should be similar.  I claim that the two properties that define a head of the beast are the two things that we agree happened with the first six heads.  Based on that, I look for the seventh head to have those same properties and it is immediately apparent that only the Ottoman Empire meets those conditions.

John mentions the THREE the says a Head was Wounded, so I assume the Head that is wounded was Rome. The Anti-Christ is not wounded until Jesus returns to kill him and cast him into hell. That who "the Anti-Christ is KILLED and then raised from the dead is just bunk. The Wound is about the Figurative 7 Headed Beast.

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

On the other hand you say that after the sixth head (the Roman Empire), God put an end to the empire system until the antichrist resurrects the sixth head with the empire of Apollyon which the antichrist will rule.  How can the seventh head be the resurrection of the sixth head?  The seventh head should be an empire in its own right just as the first six empires were.  If your interpretation is correct, then which of the empires received the fatal wound and was healed?  If this was the Roman Empire and the sixth head there is no need for a seventh head of the beast.  If it is the seventh head, the empire of Apollyon and the antichrist, then when will that empire be killed and who will take over after the antichrist is dead?  Without one additional empire after the Roman Empire, your beast is either missing a head or one of the heads never received a fatal wound.  In either case it differs from what John saw in his vision and cannot be a correct interpretation of the vision.

 

I am not saying its the 7th Head REVIVED, you said that, I said its his DADDY, meaning it looks just like him on a MAP.....The Anti-CFhrist will be a ONE MAN SHOW, but what makes him look like Papa is the LAND MASS, go look at Greece, Babylon and all the others on a map, none of them save Rome conquered every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Region Coastline, thus the Anti-Chists Kingdom will LIKEWISE cover every square inch of the Mediterranean Coastline also. Go read Dan. 8, he comes out of the NORTHWEST !! All the Clues point to what I am saying. 

Apollyon is just a Demon over the Region, hes let out after the Anti-Christ comes to power. The MORTAL WOUND is to a FIGURATIVE BEAST, there is no Seven Headed Beast brother. There could be NO BEAST over Israel because there was NO ISRAEL, that is the Mortal Wound man !! The Beast can't BEAST over Israel when there is NO Israel !! God doesn't see things like man, His prophesies fit perfect via His timelines. 

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I am assuming that you are referring to the agreement Israel signed on April 11, 2005 that was renewed three years later.  If the peace treaty was signed 15 years ago, then how come Jesus has not yet returned?  Your theory is that 3.5 years after the peace treaty, the antichrist will be revealed and Israel will flee Jerusalem.  We are well past 3.5 years and last time I checked Israel was still a country and was doing very well.

The last of the countries in the Middle East area to sign this treaty was Egypt which signed on March 6, 2007.  Even if we accept this date for when the peace treaty was signed we are more than 9 years overdue for the abomination to occur.  Doesn't this indicate to you that your belief in a peace treaty leading to the abomination is incorrect and that you should examine your assumptions?  Your own evidence is showing that your beliefs must be wrong.  Isn't it time to be academically honest and go back to your assumptions to see where they are wrong?

The Anti-Christ has to RENEW IT after the Rapture, in other words the bones will be in place, did you see how it took China and the USA three years to make a trade deal ? These Deals are IN PLACE.....This E.U. President will step in and force a little different agreement when its time to reup at some point in time. If you look at the Old Roman Empire Map then look at the ENP Map you will see, they look EXACTLY THE SAME....Now go read Daniel 11:40-43, who does he Conquer ? All of North Africa, Israel, and it will be Syria and Lebanon, who he rolls through. 

Islam will be WIPED OUT, why would anyone think a TYRANT seeking to be worshiped as God is going to leave a Religion in place that blows up anyone who doesn't worship Allah ? That would be the biggest blunder of all time, come, lets all get together and sing kumbahyah and worship this man as our God, the Muslims would go crazy man. It aint happening. Stan knows this, he hates PEOPLE and seeks to take them all to hell, so hes happy  to kill all the Muslims, thats where the 2 billion deaths mainly comes from. 

When you get to heaven you will see you were wrong on the Islam angle. 

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

OK.... I can candidly confirm that I am completely lost!!!! I went back and read through some great comments from many folks to the original post by Revelations Man -Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step. So much information and knowledge here in this forum!  Included in that discussion / thread I believe I saw a reference to the 2300 days (evenings and mornings).... not sure if I caught this correctly but I am not sure if / how this would relate to chapter 11... (if I misunderstood, please accept my apology).

Unfortunately, I am still unable to understand 11.  I have attempted to section 11 into at least two parts: Section 1 would begin with verse 5 and would begin sometime during the pagan Roman period (I know everyone / most / many contend this begins with the post Alexander powers). The second section would consist of the papal Roman period or power where the "little horn" comes to power. Then chapter 12 picks gets us to the end of time and the second coming.

The basis for all of this is as follows: the last two chapters should address three things: 1) what will happen to Daniel's people (Jews), 2) the rise of the "little horn" and ALL his attempts / actions / events, etc. to corrupt the Word of God and His Plan of Salvation, and 3) the end times (chapter 12).

Consequently, I am then attempting to take the first section of papal Rome and identify some actors and events that might be more easily identified and then try to fill in the blanks if you will. But as mentioned, I have having some serious difficulty. I am sure everyone will comment and reply that is because I am ignoring the starting point  - post Alexander Greece and Antiochus, etc. (there are only four kingdoms and the last three are Medes - Persia, Greece and Rome. In both chapter 8 and here in 11 (first four verses), they are specifically identified, and in my opinion, are complete - they are behind us in the prophecies.  And everything after verse 4 should provide details of the fourth kingdom only - those events and actors that are directly affecting the three areas of concern mentioned above - Daniel's people, little horn, and the end of times. Also, I might mention another point which I certainly can not prove and would not attempt: I believe there were approximately 400 years or so where there really was no further prophecies or prophets sent to the Jews prior to the coming of the Messiah. Essentially, it was dark for that time. To me this also identifies (bad choice of words) with the "transition" period from the 3rd and the 4th kingdoms - it is also a dead period and we might / should try and identify the meaning of verse 5 and beyond as beginning with the 4th kingdom.

Again, this is why I am attempting to unpack and learn 11 by searching for the proper actors and events belonging to verses 5 to 21 initially (the reason I stopped at 21 is because I think this might refer to the little horn and then I can work back to verse 5...).

Sorry for the long winded comments but if I am going to ask for anyone's assistance, and I see from the responses so far it is going to be difficult to get anyone to put aside the post Alexander beliefs, I should provide you my reasoning for my approach.

Finally, I would welcome any comments or thoughts since there is obviously so much talent here, and thank all of you in advance! In an unrelated question (at least to me), does anyone what to offer their opinion on the 23000 mornings and evenings? I don't believe there is any agreement on this subject..... 

Thank you so much and I hope to hear from anyone soon, best wishes, Charlie

 

 

 

I will get back with you later I am brain tired at this point, nap time. 

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I will get back with you later I am brain tired at this point, nap time. 

Thank you very much for responding and I am sorry to put you through this... best wishes always, Charlie

[Marilyn C]

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 3:47 AM, Revelation Man said:

Sure it does. Read Dan. 7, the Little Horn ARISES out pf the Fourth Beasts Head AND he ARISES out of one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the latter time. Now please explain to me how both of those can happen without them being overlaid ? In other words he must ARISE out of two Kingdoms at once. God makes riddles that are very hard to understand on purpose, that way He has to reveal them Himself, people can't just figure out God's plans. But when they are revealed they should be very clear, but men have Men's Traditions, according to Jesus' speech to the Pharisees, its a hindrance to receiving  the things that are of God. 

Only Greece fits as per which one of the Four Generals he ARISES out of because only Greece is in the European Union {Fourth Beast} which would allow him to arise out of the head of the Fourth Beast.He thus must be born in Greece {Dan. 8} therefore he can COME TO POWER in the E.U. {Dan. 7}. Now we understand why we get a RUNDOWN of epic proportions via the Greek Kings Lineage. Only when people try to force their own ideas like the Muslim/Islam angle to they have to discard these passages above. 

If you think it has to be North and South as per Israel, then it will be the North African Nations that PUSH AT HIM in your opinion, I don't think the North and South has to be via Israel location on the map, but irregardless it changes nothing as per the Prophecy except who pushes at who, and to me that's irrelevant as per to who is the Anti-Christ, hes the King of the North, and Greece is indeed North of Israel. If you would read Dan. 8 REAL CLOSE it even tells you he comes from the Northwest, not just the North.

 Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

If you PUSH TOWARD the South and East that means you come from the NORTHWEST !! And Greece/European Union is Northwest of Israel. None of the others are Northwest of Israel. The bible gives us all the clues we need, we just have to put off Men's Ideas/Traditions.

 

Hi Rev. Man,

So we agree that the `little horn` arises out of the 4th beastly kingdom/Federation of the end of the Gentiles rule. And that kingdom is in the Middle east as Dan. 2 `s Great Image revealed.

`You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image whose splendour was excellent, STOOD BEFORE YOU...` (Dan. 2: 31)

So where was the King of Babylon? Where was the Great image`s feet? In the Middle east, in Iraq.