Daniel 11

[Charlie744]

I am attempting to complete a commentary on the book of Daniel - completely new interpretations from anything that is "out there". I have completed chapters 1 -10 but I am having significant difficulty with chapter 11. Most scholars, commentaries, etc., begin after verse 4 (Alexander) with one of the rulers of the four territories split from Alexander's Empire. My initial thought is that God is done with them. I believe the verses 5 to 21 at least should consider the Pagan / Papal period and the coming Messiah and the Jewish people (Daniel's people)........ not some relatively insignificant individual as an Antiochus or the transitional kingdoms (post Alexander) - they really do not have much important to God's Plan of Salvation and I do not believe He would spent that much prophetic capital on such..... But I need some serious thinking partners with this... Hope there is some interest in challenging the long and maybe stale interpretations...... My initial plan is to try and identify some verses within 11 that unequivocally point to a specific or definite time or individual and then try to fill in the in-between activity / verses. I will say that unless we can correctly identify the identities in verses 5 and 6, we will not unlock the message of Daniel 11 ....... So, if you would like to brainstorm on these two verses initially..... great!!!!!!
Hope this makes sense and I look forward to your assistance and abilities. Best wishes always, Charlie

[dhchristian]

Sometimes those "Long and stale interpretations" May be the right interpretations and there is no need to change them. 

Sometimes we just need to see the wisdom of the past scholars and accept their findings as facts, instead of searching for "novel interpretations". 

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

I am attempting to complete a commentary on the book of Daniel - completely new interpretations from anything that is "out there". I have completed chapters 1 -10 but I am having significant difficulty with chapter 11. Most scholars, commentaries, etc., begin after verse 4 (Alexander) with one of the rulers of the four territories split from Alexander's Empire. My initial thought is that God is done with them. I believe the verses 5 to 21 at least should consider the Pagan / Papal period and the coming Messiah and the Jewish people (Daniel's people)........ not some relatively insignificant individual as an Antiochus or the transitional kingdoms (post Alexander) - they really do not have much important to God's Plan of Salvation and I do not believe He would spent that much prophetic capital on such..... But I need some serious thinking partners with this... Hope there is some interest in challenging the long and maybe stale interpretations...... My initial plan is to try and identify some verses within 11 that unequivocally point to a specific or definite time or individual and then try to fill in the in-between activity / verses. I will say that unless we can correctly identify the identities in verses 5 and 6, we will not unlock the message of Daniel 11 ....... So, if you would like to brainstorm on these two verses initially..... great!!!!!!
Hope this makes sense and I look forward to your assistance and abilities. Best wishes always, Charlie

Hi Charlie

I have interpreted these verses below to refer to Egypt (King of the South) and Rome (King of the North).  You would have to go to history to get all the fine details, to see if it fits.  I am just stirring you to check out this direction.

 Daniel 11:5   And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

One of Alexander's gerneral's Ptolomy took the south (Egypt).

Out of his lineage, one of his offspring who was ruling in Egypt came up great.  Still the King of the South.

 

  Daniel 11:6   And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

In the end of years - of those years now past,... the King of the South and the King of the North shall join themselves together through the Kings daughter of the south (Cleopatra)

Cleopatra comes on to the scene becoming Julius Caesar's mistress.  Julius Caesar is the King of the North. 

  Daniel 11:7   But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:

I will stop there for now, because it's been a long time since I looked into the details.  Go to history to follow the rest of the story.

We know that the king of the North back then was Rome, and the King of the south Egypt.  The warring started between these two because of Cleopatra and her Roman lovers.

 

 

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I am attempting to complete a commentary on the book of Daniel - completely new interpretations from anything that is "out there". I have completed chapters 1 -10 but I am having significant difficulty with chapter 11. Most scholars, commentaries, etc., begin after verse 4 (Alexander) with one of the rulers of the four territories split from Alexander's Empire. My initial thought is that God is done with them. I believe the verses 5 to 21 at least should consider the Pagan / Papal period and the coming Messiah and the Jewish people (Daniel's people)........ not some relatively insignificant individual as an Antiochus or the transitional kingdoms (post Alexander) - they really do not have much important to God's Plan of Salvation and I do not believe He would spent that much prophetic capital on such..... But I need some serious thinking partners with this... Hope there is some interest in challenging the long and maybe stale interpretations...... My initial plan is to try and identify some verses within 11 that unequivocally point to a specific or definite time or individual and then try to fill in the in-between activity / verses. I will say that unless we can correctly identify the identities in verses 5 and 6, we will not unlock the message of Daniel 11 ....... So, if you would like to brainstorm on these two verses initially..... great!!!!!!
Hope this makes sense and I look forward to your assistance and abilities. Best wishes always, Charlie

You are in luck I have already done this for you, spending a good deal of time looking up every King and how each king came to power. By the way, the reason this is so relevant is Antiochus is the TYPE Anti-Christ and the High Priest he appointed {Jason real name Yeshua} is the TYPE False Prophet who tried to Hellenize the Jews. which lead to the Maccabean Revolt. 

P.S. in hindsight I realized I should have included chapter 10, its one continuous vision. The prince of Persia is a Demon named Apollyon, he is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. ch. 17. He is the Beast that WAS.....IS NOT......YET IS. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

  Daniel 11:6   And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

In the end of years - of those years now past,... the King of the South and the King of the North shall join themselves together through the Kings daughter of the south (Cleopatra)

Cleopatra comes on to the scene becoming Julius Caesar's mistress.  Julius Caesar is the King of the North. 

You are way ahead of the timeline Sister, this was about Bernice not Cleopatra. I actually spent months on this exegesis. I got tired of not knowing about this convoluted passage, so I DUG IN....LOL. 

[Diaste]

I don't know too much about Dan 11 but it seems that the chapter spans time from what historians and theologians say is Antiochus IV to the latter day beast of Rev 13. It seems the tale of the end of the age beast begins at least at v 36 and maybe as early as v 29. There is little doubt in my mind v 39-45 is the beast of Revelation.

 

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't know too much about Dan 11 but it seems that the chapter spans time from what historians and theologians say is Antiochus IV to the latter day beast of Rev 13. It seems the tale of the end of the age beast begins at least at v 36 and maybe as early as v 29. There is little doubt in my mind v 39-45 is the beast of Revelation.

 

36 is right, 21-33 maybe 34 is Antiochus 34 and 35 is the 2000 - 2200 some odd year time period between Antiochus and the End Times, where many overcome and become WHITE until the end...... meaning of course they are cleansed in Jesus. Then 36-45 is the Anti-Christ. We are given the Greek genealogy for a reason, he is born n Greece.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

36 is right, 21-33 maybe 34 is Antiochus 34 and 35 is the 2000 - 2200 some odd year time period between Antiochus and the End Times, where many overcome and become WHITE until the end...... meaning of course they are cleansed in Jesus. Then 36-45 is the Anti-Christ. We are given the Greek genealogy for a reason, he is born n Greece.

Antiochus IV is Seleucid. I'm staying with the rise of the beast from the old Seleucid region since we seem to be following that line in Daniel 11. And it has always appeared to me as though the beast is distinct from the Diadochi. Which is why I interpret "At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him" as the two kings coming to battle the willful king. And of course because it's abundantly obvious the willful king is not the KOTN. To interpret Dan 11:36 as the KOTN would mean the KOTN fights against himself in v 40; both kings rise to fight against the v 36 king.  

I think it a stretch to say v 40 is to be read, "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at the king of the north: and the king of the north shall come against the king of the south like a whirlwind," when the focus since v 36 is the 'him' that exalts himself and is not identified as either the KOTN or KOTS.

'Him' in v 40 is the willful king of v 36. Verses 11-16 are very specific regarding who is fighting whom ans we know without doubt the KOTN fights the KOTS. That specific language isn't repeated in v 40, only 'him'. In v 40 the 'him' is still the king from v 36 and he not identified as either the KOTN or KOTS. 

The Hebrew I think more than suggests both the KOTS and the KOTN are defeated.

And in any case the King of the North is the region of Asia Minor. Greece would be considered the West.

Prove to me from scripture the v 36 king is the KOTN and that the KOTN is Greece. Not from personal belief, scripture.

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Antiochus IV is Seleucid. I'm staying with the rise of the beast from the old Seleucid region since we seem to be following that line in Daniel 11. And it has always appeared to me as though the beast is distinct from the Diadochi. Which is why I interpret "At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him" as the two kings coming to battle the willful king. And of course because it's abundantly obvious the willful king is not the KOTN. To interpret Dan 11:36 as the KOTN would mean the KOTN fights against himself in v 40; both kings rise to fight against the v 36 king.  

I think it a stretch to say v 40 is to be read, "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at the king of the north: and the king of the north shall come against the king of the south like a whirlwind," when the focus since v 36 is the 'him' that exalts himself and is not identified as either the KOTN or KOTS.

For starters, you forget this was written in Hebrew not English, and the TRANSLATION sounds fine to me. Te BELOW is the actual text, and a lot of time the Enflish adds in words, just like via the SACRIFICE in Daniel 8 where it only says  THE DAILY and the English translators add in Sacrifice {Dan. 8:13}. 

 Dan.11:40 ûv'ët qëtz yit'naGach iMô melekh' haNegev w'yis'Täër äläyw melekh' haTZäfôn B'rekhev ûv'färäshiym ûväóniYôt raBôt ûvä vaárätzôt w'shä†af w'ävär

But I think they got it right in this instance, I think saying this doesn't fit is just nit picking or trying to point to another angle.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Verses 36-39 is OBVIOUS.............Then the King of the South PUSHES at him and the King of the North wipes him out. Nothing wrong with that phraseology at all. I don't even get why that is deemed off kilter mildly speaking. I don't get caught up in nuanced verbiage when we are speaking about writings from 2000-3000 years ago. 

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

'Him' in v 40 is the willful king of v 36. Verses 11-16 are very specific regarding who is fighting whom ans we know without doubt the KOTN fights the KOTS. That specific language isn't repeated in v 40, only 'him'. In v 40 the 'him' is still the king from v 36 and he not identified as either the KOTN or KOTS. 

This is specific also. The KOTS vs. the KOTN, you will be able to understand if you are on earth OR after the fact, but people in Daniel's time looked at Daniel 11:3-21 and had no idea who those people were, you're looking back at it in hindsight, and some people still can't get the people correct.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Hebrew I think more than suggests both the KOTS and the KOTN are defeated.

And in any case the King of the North is the region of Asia Minor. Greece would be considered the West.

Prove to me from scripture the v 36 king is the KOTN and that the KOTN is Greece. Not from personal belief, scripture.

The KOTS pushes at him {KOTN} and he {KOTN} wipes him out, we don't know exactly how the Hebrew Phareses it, I can find out, but I don't think it actually matters because its so obvious. 

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

King James Version (KJV)

Looks like he, him, his is used throughout this chapter. 

[Charlie744]

On 2/3/2020 at 7:48 PM, dhchristian said:

Sometimes those "Long and stale interpretations" May be the right interpretations and there is no need to change them. 

Sometimes we just need to see the wisdom of the past scholars and accept their findings as facts, instead of searching for "novel interpretations". 

Thank you very much!