2300 days

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

 

The two books fit perfectly - but certainly not in today's (nor historic) commentaries.     

Everything regarding commentaries, bible prophecy teachers, posts in discussion forums, the text of bible, videos, etc  - is like information input, constantly supplied, that you have to process.    It is natural, imo, to continuously go through some personal growth and rethink,  as you broadened your knowledge base - as God leads you.        I, for example,  even after 50 years, still do not know the name of the beast, in Revelation 13, the 666 number count to know his name exactly.   (albeit, there are unlimited number of theories on that issue).    I do think about it though, as a personal prophecy understanding pursuit  - because I love God and want to understand what He says.

 

 

Charlie, the reason to study the end times using the bible as whole, is....

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Thanks douggg for your thoughts! I believe God did not want to allow Daniel to understand all of the prophecies in the 12 chapters. One, he would not have a “need to know “- he would never have understood much of it and he could not benefit or done anything with the “end times events “, and two, Daniel had spent the last 70 years in captivity and had been subjected to so so much terrible treatment - I don’t believe God wanted him to understand or see / on a vision that his God would arrive and be crucified by his own people. There is no way God would have him feel and understand that level of horror after his tribulations in Babylon.

I also believe this specific mention of the words being “ sealed or shut up” (there are 3 in Daniel and they each mean something different ), means the understanding of the messages in some of the latter parts of 11 and 12 will NOT be understood by anyone until the end times. There still is a significant part of Daniel that is misinterpreted - 2300 days, 70 weeks, 10 horns, 3 plucked, “he” in 9:27, 1290 and 1335 days - all of these are still misunderstood and allow for gross misapplication within Daniel and certainly Revelation. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

Daniel, certainly a wise man, did not understand, because he did not have Revelation.    By not studying the book of Daniel, without side beside studying of Revelation,  the prophecies therein cannot be understood.         It takes time and dedication though to pursue both side beside.

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I do agree with you that these 2 books must fit like a glove but Daniel comes first and I am sure He wanted His people to understand His prophecies (those that apply to His first coming), and would hide or shut up the ones that speak to His second coming. 

 

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for example, you believe that Jesus's perfect sacrifice as what ceased the need for  the daily sacrifice,  as the correct understanding of Daniel 9:27, right?   

 

Yes, this must be the correct interpretation... He is the only one who could replace and fulfill this special and specific part of the Plan of Salvation.

 

 

That Jesus did end the need for the sacrificial system is factual.    I don't think anyone would disagree with that.    But the application of that fact to Daniel 9:27 is what has to be scrutinized - as attributing the "he" as being Jesus... or....  to someone else, in some other manner, for some other reason.

I can not imagine how much chapter 9 speaks often of the covenant and identifies Elohim and Lord, etc., and then people ignore all of this leading up to the most important verse- where “he” would be cut off in the midst of the week.... for 99% of chapter 9 it speaks of God and the covenant relationship and then we find those who contend this refers to AE or some antiChrist? Why? This is all about God!

 

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

(a thought question) Where in Daniel 9 (or anywhere in the book of Daniel), is there any mention of the messiah being resurrected to be presented as that perfect sacrifice in heaven?       

There here is no mention of the Messiah ‘s resurrection in Daniel but that is not part of Daniel. I believe it has been provided in both Isaiah and Jeremiah among others. But He did provide us with the 6  actions or things He would fulfill in 9:24. 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

Daniel 9 indicates the arrival of the messiah.    And the messiah cutoff.   But not of the messiah's resurrection.        Daniel would not have been aware of the messiah's resurrection, just from what he was told by Gabriel.

Agreed, Daniel would not have needed to know this ... this would have been more torture than even he could have beared (even if he could have comprehended it). He had already became quite ill and sick after one of his visions (chapter 8?). 

 

13 minutes ago, douggg said:

We should note as well,  the stoppage of the daily sacrifice in the various visions Daniel has in the book of Daniel - is never attributed to the messiah.   

I certainly agree with you that this has NOT been attributed to the Messiah- but that is one of the most significant misinterpretations of Daniel...

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Regarding the gap in the 70 weeks fulfillment, is there anywhere in Daniel of the messiah coming once to die for the sins of the world - and a second time to judge the world ?      We know for certain there is a gap between Jesus's first coming and His second coming.

douggg, again you are correct in that just about everyone has learned to accept the gap theory- this was created and promoted by the Jesuits to combat the common belief that the pope / papacy was the little horn ( around 1500 to 1600?$. And the power of the RC church was very successful in marketing this concept. But it doesn’t make any sense to me- the things to be fulfilled must all be completed within the 70 weeks- and they were! That is until and unless you are to accept the “he” in 9:27 is not the Messiah and the covenant is not the one made by the Messiah and His people and the last 7 years (cut off in the midst of the week), are not to be applied to the Messiah. This is the devils doing- Daniel is about Him and no one else! This is why we are still not able to interpret Daniel or Revelation correctly- but I also believe this is His Plan— at / near the end of times, he will allow us to see and understand both books the right way- I believe this is what He meant - “ knowledge will increase....” - He is going to unseal the true message/ meaning of both books.

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

55 minutes ago, douggg said:

As an over view, the parts in blue are historic to us.      The parts in black, have "gap-ed" to the end times.    And more specifically, the last 42 months of the 70th week,  after the willful king person in verse 36 has become the beast.

2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

7 But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:

8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north.

9 So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land.

10 But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress.

11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.

12 And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it.

13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.

16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.

19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.

20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

GAP - to the appointed time of the end....

36 And the king [king 8 of Revelation 17:11, the beast in Revelation 13] shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

 

 

 

  

douggg, greatful for chapter 11 information. As you know I am desperately attempting to unpack it . Rather than go through 11 (if you are willing to discuss this chapter), would you be willing to send me your email address and I will send you a word doc ( first few verses at a time to show you what I currently have and you can comment on? 

Thanks douggg, Charlie 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Charlie744
Correct.

[douggg]

16 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

douggg, greatful for chapter 11 information. As you know I am desperately attempting to unpack it . Rather than go through 11 (if you are willing to discuss this chapter), would you be willing to send me your email address and I will send you a word doc ( first few verses at a time to show you what I currently have and you can comment on?

Thanks douggg, Charlie 

Charlie, just click on my screename to the left and then click on "message".     You can private message discuss it with me.     Email is cumbersome for me, and computer viruses can be transmitted (unintentionally) with email attachments.    btw, you might want to consider editing your previous post and deleting your email address - so you don't get some junk email from people reading your post.

Edited March 27, 2020 by douggg

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, douggg said:

Charlie, just click on my screename to the left and then click on "message".     You can private message discuss it with me.     Email is cumbersome for me, and computer viruses can be transmitted (unintentionally) with email attachments.    btw, you might want to consider editing your previous post and deleting your email address - so you don't get some junk email from people reading your post.

Ok and thanks douggg!