2300 days

[Charlie744]

I am sure this particular topic has been discussed in the past, but because I am a newbie I would kindly ask if I could get your current thoughts.... I am currently working on chapter 11 so I have run through the first 10.... 

Would you please comment on the following:

1) Would you please tell me what the 2300 mornings and evenings directly refers or relates to? What will be completed or accomplished at the end of this time period?

2) This may be addressed in your response to #1 above, but if not, what is the basis for your time period - days, years, 1/2 days, etc.?

Please try and keep this as short as possible (dumb it down for me as I am not as "equipped" as those folks that have been responding to my Daniel 11 posts).

If not, no problem and thank all of you in advance, Charlie 

[dhchristian]

https://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/daniel-8-2300-days-geneva-study-bible-refutes-sda-2300-years-1844-bible/

[Charlie744]

DH, thank you for sending me the very informative and detailed link... unless I am mistaken, this is most likely one of the most widely accepted views for the 2300 days - which essentially focuses on Antiochus and his nasty dealings with the Jews.

I would like to respond by asking you why the 2300 mornings and evenings (which definitely mean what they say and not years (day for year principle found in the Adventist interpretation), does NOT refer or apply directly to the Messiah?  Thank you very much and I look forward to hearing your reply and others, it interested, Charlie

 

Sorry for leaving this out (below), please note:

Verse 13: Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Verse 14: And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days (evenings and mornings); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

As a result of the crucifixion, the daily sacrifice will be taken away (no longer needed), it will certainly cause desolation, the sanctuary and the host would be trodden (the Messiah is crucified and He is the only one who is able to cleanse the sanctuary by becoming the Passover Lamb and forgive ALL sins). Consequently, the 2300 days must be applied to the Messiah.  This prophecy is not about some very minor evil actor between the 3rd and 4th kingdom. Antiochus is / was not even a king anywhere near the stature of say, Nebuchadnezzar or Alexander. He is simply not important or relevant in God's prophecies - God is not going to spend His prophetic capital on such a minor character - he was just an evil little man who came to power and hated the Jews. The 2300 morning and evening phrase was specifically used to point to the daily sacrifices - it points to the final sacrificial lamb - the Messiah.  As each we progress through each chapter of Daniel, the prophecies begin to leave the horizontal level (man's kingdoms and kings) to the vertical (God's coming kingdom and Jesus). Progressively, the verses reveal the coming Messiah (chapters 8 and 9). This is one of the most important things I have found in most of the interpretations of Daniel - they concentrate on the horizontal view and not the vertical - if you search for the Messiah in the verses (prophetic especially), you will see how they speak of the Messiah and not an Antiochus or the like.... 

Look forward to hearing from anyone / everyone and thanks, Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Charlie744
Additional information left out of response.

[dhchristian]

19 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

DH, thank you for sending me the very informative and detailed link... unless I am mistaken, this is most likely one of the most widely accepted views for the 2300 days - which essentially focuses on Antiochus and his nasty dealings with the Jews.

I would like to respond by asking you why the 2300 mornings and evenings (which definitely mean what they say and not years (day for year principle found in the Adventist interpretation), does NOT refer or apply directly to the Messiah?  Thank you very much and I look forward to hearing your reply and others, it interested, Charlie

 

Sorry for leaving this out (below), please note:

Verse 13: Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Verse 14: And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days (evenings and mornings); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

As a result of the crucifixion, the daily sacrifice will be taken away (no longer needed), it will certainly cause desolation, the sanctuary and the host would be trodden (the Messiah is crucified and He is the only one who is able to cleanse the sanctuary by becoming the Passover Lamb and forgive ALL sins). Consequently, the 2300 days must be applied to the Messiah.  This prophecy is not about some very minor evil actor between the 3rd and 4th kingdom. Antiochus is / was not even a king anywhere near the stature of say, Nebuchadnezzar or Alexander. He is simply not important or relevant in God's prophecies - God is not going to spend His prophetic capital on such a minor character - he was just an evil little man who came to power and hated the Jews. The 2300 morning and evening phrase was specifically used to point to the daily sacrifices - it points to the final sacrificial lamb - the Messiah.  As each we progress through each chapter of Daniel, the prophecies begin to leave the horizontal level (man's kingdoms and kings) to the vertical (God's coming kingdom and Jesus). Progressively, the verses reveal the coming Messiah (chapters 8 and 9). This is one of the most important things I have found in most of the interpretations of Daniel - they concentrate on the horizontal view and not the vertical - if you search for the Messiah in the verses (prophetic especially), you will see how they speak of the Messiah and not an Antiochus or the like.... 

Look forward to hearing from anyone / everyone and thanks, Charlie

Charlie, first of all, when the word Yowm, which is translated as days is used by itself it just means time periods, so a Yowm can be a day or a year or a decade or a millennia, for a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day to God. When the Word Yowm is used with Mornings and evenings, it is referring to a literal day. Another example of this is found in the creation account. God Created in six literal days. To apply this to prophetic years is where many prophecy scholars have messed up.

Cleansing the temple: We are the temple of the LORD, We are the living stones of that temple. We who receive the testimony of Jesus are cleansed by His Grace and Blood, In three days He will raise that temple again. Apply the millennium for a day principle to this and we can see that we are in the time of that temple being raised. This is a mystery, one that will be fulfilled in the end. IMO those last stones are being cleansed for that temple as we speak, in this generation. This temple began with the laying of the foundation by Zerubbabel and Joshua. "Not by power or by might, but by my Spirit says the Lord" (Zech. 4:6) This is not a temple made with stone that has Tablets written on stone in the heart thereof, But a temple made of living stones with the Law written on the heart thereof.

The Only way for Satan to defile this temple is to enter the minds of these living stones which he is attempting to do, and the Word of God says many will fall away, because they loved not the truth. In Other words they did not fully Believe in the testimony of Jesus who is the Truth. They instead by their mental capacities have lost the ability to trust fully in the finished work of Christ on the cross and instead using their mind to tell them they need to add to grace works to preserve themselves. The Actions of the Jewish People in regard to the defiled temple of Antiochus were a part of this lesson if you will. The Israelites knew they had only enough oil for a day, yet the LORD defied logic and acted supernaturally and made that oil last for 8 nights. Just Like Zerubbabel and Joshua were a picture of the foundation, This episode was a picture of the type of faith required, one that is counter intuitive, Against the mind. Paul the Apostle extensively writes on how the Mind of man is at war with the faith in the Grace of God (read 1 Cor chapters 1-3 and roman 8:1-8). This is the very heart of the church age dilemma. Full trust versus partial belief also known as lukewarmness in Revelation. These are the wheat and the tares growing in the same field together until the harvest. 

What was minor prophecy, the 2300 days, with a stunningly accurate fulfillment to the day, has been inflated by many a man to mean something bigger than it was intended to their "great disappointment". Such is what happens when the mind of man tries to figure out the Mind of the Almighty. It just is not going to happen. I have been at this a long time, made those same mistakes thinking I could figure Him Out, and that is when he throws the curve ball, and you look foolish trying to swing at it. Peter is a prime example of this as well. He had enough faith to stepout on the water, but when his mind got in the way he sank. The example of when Jesus began to teach them that he must go into Jerusalem and suffer on the cross Peter and his mind could not comprehend and Jesus rebuked him saying "get thee behind me Satan" Or the case when he said he will never deny Jesus and proceeded to do so thrice. Or when he was rebuked by Paul in Galatians for not eating with the gentiles. He finally Got it, in Acts 15 when he stood up to speak.... (read acts 15:7-11)

And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. (Ezekiel 37:3)  

[Charlie744]

DH, once again I would like to thank you for the interesting and time consuming response!  I have been active on this sight for a brief period of time and have posted two issues - Daniel 11 and now the 2300 days, and it is quite enjoyable to have many respond with such knowledge and dedication to God's Word.  As you are well aware, there is no shortage of interpretations with many of the chapters / verses within Daniel and that certainly allows for us to continue to search for God's meaning and understanding - He is not going to give us all the answers to the test...

Unfortunately, I have only recently began my journey to learn and obey the Word of God. I see, not only from the quality and depth of the content of the replies but also from their own words, that just about all in this site have been studying His Word and have been on His path for some time. I wish I would have taken this road so much earlier.

In July, 2019 I wanted to try and learn Revelation - I read through it once and came away in utter bewilderment.  Subsequently, I had a brief conversation with an Adventist friend and he advised me to tackle Daniel first - and leverage that understanding to learn Revelations. I took his advice and here I am. 

After reading Daniel through at least 3 times, I cam away with almost the same level of confusion as Revelation. I did have some traction with the historical chapters but the prophetic chapters were "Greek" to me. I decided to take one verse at a time and read some of the interpretations and comments from folks all over the internet - from Augustine to Walvoord, Clarke, Gill, Henry, Barnes, and on and on. I came away with the following:

There are perhaps 2 or 3 leading interpretations on the controversial issues found in  Daniel (not in any order):

1) 2300 days,

2) times, times and 1/2 times,

3) 10 horns

4) 1 little horn

5) 3 horns plucked up

6) abomination of desolation

7) identity of the "he" in 9:27

8) 1290 days

9) 1335 days

I may have left one or two out - if so, please let me know, but these 9 essentially are the cause for all the controversy in Daniel. But why do we still have at least 2 or 3 [usually] completely different interpretations of the same verse? The above mentioned folks are quite intellectual, scholarly, well educated and dedicated to learning the Word of God. How could I possibly decide who was right - so many others during the 20th century, and especially since the advent of the internet, have spent so much time and energy to consider......

I came away with three answers:

1) There is absolutely NO way I had the intellectual capacity, historical knowledge or theological understanding to offer more than those folks,

2) Despite the comment just made, and although I could not offer an alternative, I knew in my heart they did not have the correct interpretations for these controversial issues. They should be more of a consensus among them... theoretically, given all the recorded history and the collective studying of the best scholars over the past 2000 years, there should be relatively minor disagreements (I would think). We are getting too close to His second coming and He certainly desires that we come to know His Word - this is not a game of hide and seek for Him.

3) Having said that,the third take away must be that we have been attempting to interpret His prophetic Words in Daniel at a 6 foot level - a horizontal level, if you will. We are quite able to match the individuals and events in Daniel with an Alexander or Nebuchadnezzar or the break up of Alexander's empire into four territories because they can be found in our history books. However, our error, although more than reasonable and acceptable (so far), is to continue with that same approach - let's try and match those events after Greece to our history books - and this is where we begin to depart from each other's interpretations. This is due to our failure to recognize when or where God's prophecies are no longer meant to "match or fit" to our / man's historical figures or events.  We fail to recognize these prophecies are meant to reveal His history - His coming of the Messiah, His Plan of Salvation. He has already got our attention by showing us in the historical section how He can reveal coming history.  Now, He wants us to see His coming history.

Consequently, if we might try and see Him in the prophetic chapters / verses of Daniel, we will find a completely new interpretation. I believe the one He wants us to see, and to be candid, I believe this is entirely purposeful - He has kept much of Daniel "shut up"  until the time of the end. I think the end is right around the corner and it is time for Him to reveal  even more of Himself. Since July, 2019 I have been able to study and complete (first phase only) the first 10 chapters of Daniel. Each one was a struggle with the prophetic chapters being so much more difficult.  ONLY through the Holy Spirit could I even make sense of these verses - all of them. The answer is this: The Holy Spirit is the only one capable of revealing His Word, AND, He will reveal His Word if we try to find and recognize the Messiah in these prophetic verses - and not insignificant people like Antiochus or an anti-Christ (9:27) or some mythical covenant this anti-Christ will make some 2000 years in the future. 

Consequently, the 2300 mornings and evenings, as well as all the other controversial issues mentioned above, point and speak entirely to the coming Messiah, the Spiritual battle between the little horn and His Word and finally, His second coming. This is the sum of the prophetic verses we find in chapters 8 to 12 (certainly there is still some reference to man's kingdoms and kings, however, the transition from the physical to the spiritual moves quickly along after the middle of chapter  8).

Therefore, the 2300 days ties to the Messiah, the cleansing of  the Sanctuary, His Passover sacrifice and the verses within Daniel and other prophets which identify those things He must fulfill at His first coming.

I certainly enjoyed your response but, unless I missed it, can you please let me know when the 2300 days begins and ends. I am well aware of the Adventist's view where they incorrectly apply a day-for-a - year principle AND assume the 2300 (year) period begins at the same time as Daniel's 70 week prophecy. And once again we see how we attempt to identify a man made event or time to interpret one of His most important prophetic verses  in Daniel. The 2300 days is not meant to point to 1844 or an insignificant actor like Antiochus - this is ALL ABOUT HIM!

So, I deeply apologize for this very long winded response but I am sincere and trying to be as respectful as I know how given my admiration and appreciation for the very talented group of true Christians on this website, such  as yourself and RevelationMan and Marilyn and others. 

Two requests:

1) Can you let me know how your 2300 days begins and ends.

2) What will make you believe this verse is about Him and not Antiochus or anyone else?   Best wishes always, Charlie

[Revelation Man]

12 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

In July, 2019 I wanted to try and learn Revelation - I read through it once and came away in utter bewilderment. 

Do you want me to explain the book of Revelation to you ? Because its not hard once you understand its a HUGE CODE BOOK. But getting the Chronological Order down is the most difficult part. 

First off, do not go down the SDA road, they are a cult.  Its OK to have friends from there of course, but do not go down that road, we are not under the Law.

16 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I came away with three answers:

1) There is absolutely NO way I had the intellectual capacity, historical knowledge or theological understanding to offer more than those folks,

MISTAKE......God can show anyone His word who seeks His face. Those men you pointed to gave us their understandings of old, God wasn't ready to give out end time understandings until these very last days, so NOW is the time, seek His face or get plugged into to someone with Knowledge of these things already, and the Spirit testifies of the spirit.

19 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

2) Despite the comment just made, and although I could not offer an alternative, I knew in my heart they did not have the correct interpretations for these controversial issues. They should be more of a consensus among them... theoretically, given all the recorded history and the collective studying of the best scholars over the past 2000 years, there should be relatively minor disagreements (I would think). We are getting too close to His second coming and He certainly desires that we come to know His Word - this is not a game of hide and seek for Him.

 

Don't worry about CONSENSUS, ask God to lead you unto all truth, the Holy Spirit will not lead you wrong. Stop worrying about other men's ideas. Jesus picked BABES for his Disciples, not the Learned Men like the Pharisees !! So you are good, you just need to learn to lean on the holy spirits guidance. Thats the key.

24 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

1) 2300 days,

2) times, times and 1/2 times,

3) 10 horns

4) 1 little horn

5) 3 horns plucked up

6) abomination of desolation

7) identity of the "he" in 9:27

8) 1290 days

9) 1335 days

1) 2300 days.................................................. This = 1150 days

2) times, times and 1/2 times.......................This = 1260 days

3) 10 horns..................................................... This = the 10 Kings or Nations that arise with the Little Horn Anti-Christ. 10 can mean COMPLETE Number of.

4) 1 little horn................................................ This is the Man of Sin/Anti-Christ/Beast.

5) 3 horns plucked up.................................... This can be three Kings or a 1/3 of the Nations/Kings who rebel against the Anti-Christ rule.

6) abomination of desolation........................ This is the Image the False Prophet places in the Temple of God 30 days before the A.C. Conquers Jerusalem.

7) identity of the "he" in 9:27....................... The HE is the coming Anti-Christ.

8) 1290 days.................................................... This is when the AoD happens, 1290 days from the Second Coming which ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS.

9) 1335 days..................................................... This is when the Two-witnesses show up, 1335 days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS.

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Do you want me to explain the book of Revelation to you ? Because its not hard once you understand its a HUGE CODE BOOK. But getting the Chronological Order down is the most difficult part. 

First off, do not go down the SDA road, they are a cult.  Its OK to have friends from there of course, but do not go down that road, we are not under the Law.

MISTAKE......God can show anyone His word who seeks His face. Those men you pointed to gave us their understandings of old, God wasn't ready to give out end time understandings until these very last days, so NOW is the time, seek His face or get plugged into to someone with Knowledge of these things already, and the Spirit testifies of the spirit.

Don't worry about CONSENSUS, ask God to lead you unto all truth, the Holy Spirit will not lead you wrong. Stop worrying about other men's ideas. Jesus picked BABES for his Disciples, not the Learned Men like the Pharisees !! So you are good, you just need to learn to lean on the holy spirits guidance. Thats the key.

1) 2300 days.................................................. This = 1150 days

2) times, times and 1/2 times.......................This = 1260 days

3) 10 horns..................................................... This = the 10 Kings or Nations that arise with the Little Horn Anti-Christ. 10 can mean COMPLETE Number of.

4) 1 little horn................................................ This is the Man of Sin/Anti-Christ/Beast.

5) 3 horns plucked up.................................... This can be three Kings or a 1/3 of the Nations/Kings who rebel against the Anti-Christ rule.

6) abomination of desolation........................ This is the Image the False Prophet places in the Temple of God 30 days before the A.C. Conquers Jerusalem.

7) identity of the "he" in 9:27....................... The HE is the coming Anti-Christ.

8) 1290 days.................................................... This is when the AoD happens, 1290 days from the Second Coming which ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS.

9) 1335 days..................................................... This is when the Two-witnesses show up, 1335 days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS.

RevelationMan, it is ALWAYS great to see that you take the time and consideration to respond to my comments!!!!! I do agree with you regarding your comments on those who have provided their interpretations - they are / were a strong starting point for me! Regarding the study of Revelation - I certainly will want to learn your thoughts and interpretations...... It would be such a mistake not to consider your thoughts along with many others here including DHChristian, etc.

I also feel it might be necessary to apologize to all who may have felt that I was the only one who has heard or could hear from the Holy Spirit - NO, it is just the opposite - I meant that HE is the only one who can reveal to us God's meaning. 

Now, regarding your interpretations above for the 9 controversial issues found within Daniel, I am, unfortunately, finding myself on the complete opposite side of the spectrum........

Rather than attempt to address and discuss each of the issues, which would most likely take a lifetime, I would like to learn about your thoughts on the 2300 days. I would respectfully request that you might want to answer the  same question I proposed to DH:

1) Why this does not point to the Messiah? Why doesn't this time frame point to the things He must fulfill during His first coming? 

2) Does the 2300 days / years / 1/2 days, etc., period interpretation define the application of this verse? I am sure you will agree this is one of the most enigmatic time periods mentioned within Daniel - if we interpret this time frame incorrectly - days, 1/2 days or years as the Adventists do, OR we attempt to match it to one of man's actors or events in history (e.g., Antiochus), we will never see the Messiah in these verses (and specifically this verse).

3) What would it take for you to find this speaks / points directly to the Messiah?

I look forward to your response.... very much, thank you, Charlie

[Last Daze]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:22 PM, Charlie744 said:

I am sure this particular topic has been discussed in the past, but because I am a newbie I would kindly ask if I could get your current thoughts.... I am currently working on chapter 11 so I have run through the first 10.... 

Would you please comment on the following:

1) Would you please tell me what the 2300 mornings and evenings directly refers or relates to? What will be completed or accomplished at the end of this time period?

2) This may be addressed in your response to #1 above, but if not, what is the basis for your time period - days, years, 1/2 days, etc.?

Please try and keep this as short as possible (dumb it down for me as I am not as "equipped" as those folks that have been responding to my Daniel 11 posts).

If not, no problem and thank all of you in advance, Charlie 

Hey Charlie.  I view Daniel 8 in the context of the new covenant temple, the body of Christ, and associate it with the measuring of the temple that's seen in Revelation 11.  I see them as both referring to the same point in time, which is when the man of sin demands worship as God under the penalty of death.

When the "worship or die" ultimatum takes effect, those believers who were ensnared in sin and allowed themselves to be deceived by man of sin will give their worship to him instead of God (Daniel 8:12).  Those who remain faithful to God will be killed (Daniel 8:11).  This is how the temple of God is measured.

Concerning the 2300 evenings - mornings, there is a word for "days" which wasn't used so there must be some meaning in expressing the time duration as evenings, mornings.  I see two possible views based on old testament temple procedures.  The first is sacrifices (Numbers 28:4).  They were to happen in the morning and evening.  Since the passage focuses on the daily sacrifice, it could be a reference to 2300 sacrifices, or 1150 days.  The second is the lighting of the lamp (Leviticus 24:2-3).  This was to happen from evening to morning.  2300 times of tending to the lamp took 1150 days.  Both of these are feasible in my mind and have clear spiritual applications to that time.

The 1150 days are used to restore the holy place (Daniel 8:14).  This corresponds to the duration of the first six plagues that the two witnesses bring about.  The plagues serve the purpose of convincing those who were deceived into worshiping the man of sin that they made an error and should repent.  The plagues are for conviction and restoration.  At the end of the 1150 days, all who are going to repent have done so and the holy place is restored.  Those who repented are again offering thanksgiving to God and keeping their lamps lit.  The armies then gather to oppose God which brings the seventh plague, the return of Jesus.

That's as succinct as I can be.  I'd be happy to expound if you're interested.  Blessings.

[The Light]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:22 PM, Charlie744 said:

I am sure this particular topic has been discussed in the past, but because I am a newbie I would kindly ask if I could get your current thoughts.... I am currently working on chapter 11 so I have run through the first 10.... 

Would you please comment on the following:

1) Would you please tell me what the 2300 mornings and evenings directly refers or relates to? What will be completed or accomplished at the end of this time period?

2) This may be addressed in your response to #1 above, but if not, what is the basis for your time period - days, years, 1/2 days, etc.?

Please try and keep this as short as possible (dumb it down for me as I am not as "equipped" as those folks that have been responding to my Daniel 11 posts).

If not, no problem and thank all of you in advance, Charlie 

The 2300 mornings and evenings is the time from when the daily sacrifice is taken away, until the time that the host is no longer trampled underfoot. The host will no longer be trampled underfoot when Jesus returns with His armies to set up His kingdom on earth.

We can calculate that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 of the 70th week.

If we use 1150 as the number of days and add it to day 1185, we arrive at day 2335. There are 2520 days in the 7 year period so day 2335 has to be incorrect.

 

 

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

The 2300 mornings and evenings is the time from when the daily sacrifice is taken away, until the time that the host is no longer trampled underfoot. The host will no longer be trampled underfoot when Jesus returns with His armies to set up His kingdom on earth.

We can calculate that the daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185 of the 70th week.

If we use 1150 as the number of days and add it to day 1185, we arrive at day 2335. There are 2520 days in the 7 year period so day 2335 has to be incorrect.

 

 

It would be 1230 plus 1150 right ? which would be day 2380, but we can assume we know when God cleanses the Temple for God, just because he defeats the Anti-Christ on day 2520 he might very well be made to leave the Temple before that. Its kind of a not known entity. All we can go by is the numbers we are given. The 1290 is the False Prophet placing an Image of the Beast in the Temple, maybe the Beast comes there himself 1150 days from the end where Jesus returns, everything, I am afraid, is not known to us in full, we see darkly. 

But my point is, why do you say 1185 ?

God Bless