VULTURES and a CORPSE.... Matt 24:28

[Sister]

On 3/15/2020 at 7:37 AM, Last Daze said:

They'll know that something's up when blood turns back into water, and it rains, and things revert back to pre-plague conditions.  I'm sure that they will be aware that it's the two witnesses who are behind the adverse conditions they were facing.

Hello LD

Yes, I never thought about that!  It could very well be possible that once the two witnesses are killed, that things may revert back to normal in that very short time.

What are your views on the t.v. camera's?  Can you think of any other way that the whole world can be kept updated as to cause such a big celebration over the death of these 2 witnesses?  There's a real party going on here.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Sister
stupid little mistakes

[Heleadethme]

On 3/7/2020 at 7:37 PM, Revelation Man said:

Interestingly it is the word translated vultures that is one of the keys to understanding the true meaning of the illustration.  The Greek word used means “eagles.” In Revelation this same word is used to symbolize angels in Revelation 4:7, 8:13 and 12:14.   Why is it mistranslated “vultures?” if its clear meaning is “eagles?”  This translator error is another example of the translator allowing his preconceived theology to color Jesus’ clear meaning.  He was speaking of angels.

When we are 'raptured' we shall be "like the angels".  And since scripture is always consistent....I believe we also see the rapture/resurrection in this verse:

Isa 40:31

But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

(as well as that it is a promise for our walk on earth)

[Heleadethme]

On 3/14/2020 at 7:37 PM, Last Daze said:

They'll know that something's up when blood turns back into water, and it rains, and things revert back to pre-plague conditions.  I'm sure that they will be aware that it's the two witnesses who are behind the adverse conditions they were facing.

What if the two witnesses in Revelation represent the Jew and Gentile church of Christ, witnessing and being martyred....and the consequent rapture/resurrection....?  Why two witnesses, why Jew and Gentile?  God's wonderful wisdom and fulfilling His word that it requires two or three witnesses to establish the truth of the gospel.....third witness being the Holy Spirit!  Glory to His name!  I just love so much the richness of His word and how everything comes together so perfectly.  But which would mean that is all happening at the return of the Lord, so probably things would only get worse for those on earth at that time with the wrath of the Lamb being poured out.

[Revelation Man]

56 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

What if the two witnesses in Revelation represent the Jew and Gentile church of Christ, witnessing and being martyred....and the consequent rapture/resurrection....?  Why two witnesses, why Jew and Gentile?  God's wonderful wisdom and fulfilling His word that it requires two or three witnesses to establish the truth of the gospel.....third witness being the Holy Spirit!  Glory to His name!  I just love so much the richness of His word and how everything comes together so perfectly.  But which would mean that is all happening at the return of the Lord, so probably things would only get worse for those on earth at that time with the wrath of the Lamb being poured out.

I think we saw them in the Transfiguration, Elijah {who we know is one via Malachi 4:5-6} and Moses. We get the two greatest figures of the Bible save Jesus of course. Moses the Lawgiver and Elijah who was so Spiritual he was taken by God. So with get the Law and The Spirit so to speak. They come unto the Jews only, that is what Rev. 11:1-3 means, John was told to measured only the Temple, and those that belong there, not to measure the outer courts of the Temple. Well that shows who the Two-witnesses are come to "TAKE MEASURE OF" The Jews, not the Gentiles of the outer court. We are in Heaven by that time, save the Remnant Church who are the Martyrs under the Altar in the 5th Seal. 

The Two-witnesses are called to turn Israel back unto God. 

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The Two-witnesses are come to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the 70th week ends, BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins at the 1260 Event. Israel has REPENTED before the Seals are opened at the 1260/middle of the week event Daniel 9:27 speaks about. That is why the Flee Judea like Jesus asks them to do in Matt. 24:15. If they were still not of God they wouldn't heed Jesus' words and flee Judea. 

So when Daniel says the SACRIFICE is TAKEN AWAY at the 1290, its Jesus worship that is forbidden by the False Prophet at the 1290, the False Prophet is a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus. He bribed Antiochus to become the High Priest then tried to Hellenize the Jews {get them to worship Greek gods} and thus the Maccabeans Revolted. So we had the Anti-Christ TYPE in Antiochus working with the False Prophet TYPE in Jason {real name Yeshua} and thus the two working together are the TYPE False Prophet and Anti-Christ combined. 

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

Yes, I never thought about that!  It could very well be possible that once the two witnesses are killed, that things may revert back to normal in that very short time.

Hi Sister.  Yeah, after their death, the armies will need to gather together.  That would be impossible under full plague conditions.  And since the plagues are associated with them, it makes sense that their death would bring an end to the plagues.

6 hours ago, Sister said:

What are your views on the t.v. camera's?  Can you think of any other way that the whole world can be kept updated as to cause such a big celebration over the death of these 2 witnesses?  There's a real party going on here.

It's hard to know what all will be going on in those days.  I think people will be engaged, but I'm not sure through what technology that will occur.

[Retrobyter]

On 3/13/2020 at 5:51 AM, Diaste said:

There are several problems with this but two stand out. The first is:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Matt 24

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Luke 21

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." - Mark 13

The first thing you need to understand is that a "generation" is not just the passing of the time of the father to the time of the son. Some think that a "generation" is from the time that a person enters adulthood until the son (usually the heir) enters adulthood, but the truth is that this does NOT constitute a "generation."

The truth is seen in the genealogy of our Master Yeshua` the Messiah in Matthew 1. It reveals the actual understanding of a "generation."

Here's what Matthew 1 says:

Matthew 1:1-17 (KJV)

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2 (1) Abraham begat
(2) Isaac; and Isaac begat
(3) Jacob; and Jacob begat
(4) Judas and his brethren; 3 And Judas begat
(5) Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat
(6) Esrom; and Esrom begat
(7) Aram; 4 And Aram begat
(8) Aminadab; and Aminadab begat
(9) Naasson; and Naasson begat
(10) Salmon; 5 And Salmon begat
(11) Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat
(12) Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat
(13) Jesse; 6 And Jesse begat
(14) David the king; and David the king begat

(1) Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7 And Solomon begat
(2) Roboam; and Roboam begat
(3) Abia; and Abia begat
(4) Asa; 8 And Asa begat
(5) Josaphat; and Josaphat begat
(6) Joram; and Joram begat
(7) Ozias; 9 And Ozias begat
(8) Joatham; and Joatham begat
(9) Achaz; and Achaz begat
(10) Ezekias; 10 And Ezekias begat
(11) Manasses; and Manasses begat
(12) Amon; and Amon begat
(13) Josias; 11 And Josias begat
(14) Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: 

12 And after they were brought to Babylon,
(1) Jechonias begat
(2) Salathiel; and Salathiel begat
(3) Zorobabel; 13 And Zorobabel begat
(4) Abiud; and Abiud begat
(5) Eliakim; and Eliakim begat
(6) Azor; 14 And Azor begat
(7) Sadoc; and Sadoc begat
(8) Achim; and Achim begat
(9) Eliud; 15 And Eliud begat
(10) Eleazar; and Eleazar begat
(11) Matthan; and Matthan begat
(12) Jacob; 16 And Jacob begat
(13) Joseph the husband of Mary (Miryam), of whom (Mary or Miryam) was born
(14) Jesus (Yeshua`), who is called Christ (Messiah).

17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

But, 1 Chronicles 3 gives us a different picture of the highlighted portion above:

1 Chronicles 3:1-16 (KJV)

1 Now these were the sons of David, which were born unto him in Hebron;
the firstborn Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess;
the second Daniel, of Abigail the Carmelitess: 
2 The third, Absalom the son of Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur:
the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith: 
3 The fifth, Shephatiah of Abital:
the sixth, Ithream by Eglah his wife.

4 These six were born unto him in Hebron; and there he reigned seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years. 5 And these were born unto him in Jerusalem;

Shimea, and
Shobab, and
Nathan, and
(1) Solomon, four, of Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel: 
6 Ibhar also, and
Elishama, and
Eliphelet, 7 And
Nogah, and
Nepheg, and
Japhia, 8 And
Elishama, and
Eliada, and
Eliphelet, nine. 

9 These were all the sons of David, beside the sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister. 10 And Solomon's son was 

(2) Rehoboam,
(3) Abia his son,
(4) Asa his son,
(5) Jehoshaphat his son, 
11 (6) Joram his son,
(7) Ahaziah his son,
Joash his son, 
12 Amaziah his son,
Azariah his son,
(8) Jotham his son, 
13 (9) Ahaz his son,
(10) Hezekiah his son,
(11) Manasseh his son, 
14 (12) Amon his son,
(13) Josiah his son. 15 And the sons of Josiah were,
the firstborn Johanan,
the second Jehoiakim,
the third Zedekiah,
the fourth Shallum. 16 And the sons of Jehoiakim:
(14) Jeconiah his son,
Zedekiah his son.

So, we learn that names in the family tree were SKIPPED for the "generations" in Matthew 1, specifically, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jehoiakim and Zedekiah! There was also a QUEEN SKIPPED! Athaliah, the wife of Joram and mother of Ahaziah, made herself the reigning queen upon her son's death, killed all (she thought) of the competition for the throne, and reigned 7 years between (7) Ahaziah and Joash.

In reading 2 Samuel, we learn that Joash did fine in ruling Yhudah UNTIL the priest, Jehoiada, passed away. Then, he became an idolator.

His son, Amaziah, also became an idolator.

Azariah (also called "Uzziah") was a leper that had to live in a separate house because he had dared to burn incense in the Temple, which only priests were allowed to do. 

"Jehoiakim" was really Eliakim, a son of Josiah that the Pharoah Necho of Egypt had put in the role of Yhudah's king! He was not ADONAI'S choice for king! And, he was an EVIL king in ADONAI'S sight!

His son, Jehoiachin, was evil and only reigned 3 months.

Zedekiah was really Jehoiachin's father's brother (his younger, adopted uncle), Mattaniah, and he too did EVIL in ADONAI'S sight!

So, these five (six) people were NOT included in the list in Matthew 1!

A "GENERATION" is not just some short period of time; it is an age of people who will do God's WILL! Right now, the Jews are adamantly against the Messiah being Yeshua`. As such, they are doing what is EVIL in ADONAI'S sight by rejecting HIS choice for King! And, how long have they been committing this sin? SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY A.D! We are still WAITING for the generation that accepts Yeshua` as God's choice for King!

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The second is the return of Jesus and the gathering. Only the generation that is witness to all these things, including the return of Jesus and the gathering is the generation where all the end of the age prophecy in Matt Luke and Mark will come to pass as written. Any generation from the time of Jesus to today has not seen these prophecies fulfilled, in whole or part, because no event similar to one in the prophecies has occurred in conjunction with the return of Jesus and the gathering, and in the eyewitness of a single generation. So no, it did not happen in whole as written. I reject the preterist view in whole and in part.

The act of sacrificing a few birds on a piece of pottery in the doorway does not comport with "So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be" and "He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." 

The A of D example is along the lines of Antiochus IV where he reportedly erected a statute of Zeus in the Temple. Since the A of D must stand where it ought not it's either a statue or a man. Since Paul prophesies it's a man, I'm gonna go with a man as written in 2 Thess 2.

Yeah, my dad, an independent Baptist minister, felt the same way. He used to say that the generation that saw the birth of Israel in 1948 would be the generation that saw the return of the Lord. At first, he believed that a generation was 40 years, after the 40 years wandering of the children of Israel (which was Hal Lindsey's thought, as well). That put the coming in 1988. It didn't happen. Now, its 2020 and that's 32 years later, and Yeshua` STILL hasn't arrived!

It reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses: They came to a similar conclusion about 1914. So, what did they do when Yeshua` didn't come in 1914? They DOUBLED DOWN and said that Yeshua` began His reign in Heaven at that time! This is how bad conclusions are made WORSE! Rather than make apologies about their prediction and swallow their pride, admitting their mistake, they SPIRITUALIZED (ALLEGORIZED) it away, putting it on a plane that others can't verify or prove right or wrong!

Regarding the "statue or a man" theory, "abomination" means "disgusting thing." "Desolation" means to leave it empty or void, particularly void of life. The interesting thing is that the "abomination of desolation" can also be re-written as "desolation's abomination," just as "son of David" can be re-written as "David's son." So, it's "emptiness's disgusting thing." So far, I've not changed a thing; I just used synonyms. The "emptiness" is the desolation in which our Lord Yeshua` left the Jews in Matthew 23:38. The "disgusting thing" is the desecration and destruction of the Temple itself, the ultimate loss; not even the WORST idolatrous sacrifice could be as disgusting as that, especially to the Jews and the priests in charge of that Temple!

[Retrobyter]

On 3/16/2020 at 7:41 AM, Diaste said:

Um, that would be the work of the Spirit. And still He can be rejected. The Jews await an earthly Messiah. Look into it.

Shalom, again, Diaste.

To this, I will simply quote Paul:

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (the children of Israel) also now not believed, that through YOUR  mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

While you are right that it is through the power of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God), He has CHOSEN to work through US who are GENTILE (NON-ISRAELI) BELIEVERS to bring them back to God!!!

And, something else for you to consider:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till YE shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"

Let that sink in! YESHUA` (JESUS) SAID, "Y'all shall not see me from now on, until Y'ALL (the Jews of Jerusalem) shall say, 'Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH.'"

And, I'll say it again:

This is a quotation from ...

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: Hoshiyah na' transliterated into Greek: Hosanna), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of the highlighted portion of verse 26 is "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH."

These first two words are seen in the plural at all the seaports and airports in Israel:

This is written "Baruwkhiym haba'iym" and means "Welcome, comers!" Thus, the sentence here also means "Welcome, Comer in the Name (on the Authority) of YHWH!"

I've seen all sorts of people who claim to be Christians who think they must do something before Yeshua` (Jesus) returns. Some believe that we must keep preaching the Gospel until every last person has heard before Yeshua` comes back.

The truth is that it's NOT ABOUT US GENTILE CHRISTIANS! Yeshua` said that He wouldn't be back until the Jews of Jerusalem can WELCOME Him back, as God's Authority Figure!

The conclusion then is this: Yeshua` is not coming back until the Jews of Jerusalem can welcome Him back and they won't obtain mercy except through YOUR mercy they also may obtain mercy!

We who are Gentiles who claim to be Christians must extend mercy to the Jews, and they must accept Him as God's Messiah before Yeshua` will return!

OF COURSE they expect an earthly Messiah! So have ALL of God's children down through the years! He's who I expect, also! He shall PHYSICALLY REIGN FROM JERUSALEM!

Isaiah 27:12-13 (KJV)

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 62:1-12 (KJV)

1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength,

"Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness."

10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world,

"Say ye to the daughter of Zion, 'Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.' 12 And they shall call them, 'The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD': and thou shalt be called, 'Sought out, A city not forsaken.'"

And, that is located in physical Israel today! He'll reign on the earth, and not just for a thousand years, as some claim! Gabriel said,

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

On 3/16/2020 at 7:41 AM, Diaste said:

The histories say Gessius Florus sacrificed birds on some earthenware in the doorway rendering the Temple ritually unclean. The stolen money was another spark that tried to light the flame.

Not according to what the histories say happened...

Nay-sayer! Which "histories?" That by secular historians, like Josephus? or those by church historians? It's PRECISELY what happened, according to the church historians, and even the secular historians alluded to this truth! Please! Investigate it for yourself and see what was written!

I had said, 

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Also, one must understand the word "generation" correctly. Later.

To which you responded,

On 3/16/2020 at 7:41 AM, Diaste said:

Correctly? You mean like you do?

What is the standard?

Who is the arbiter of 'correct'?

You?

No, I'm not giving a subjective opinion. I'm giving you objective truth! As I already said above, the word "generation" does NOT mean "from the time a person becomes an adult to the time his son (usually his heir) becomes an adult." Look carefully at the argument presented in the post above! A "generation" doesn't count evil, irresponsible people in charge! Those evil "supposed generations" who could have been listed in Matthew's Account of Yeshua`s genealogy were SKIPPED! <Sigh.> Just read it and think about it. It was written IN GOD'S WORD (Matt. 1:17) that "from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations." WHY? Why doesn't this match with 2 Kings?

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The first thing you need to understand is that a "generation" is not just the passing of the time of the father to the time of the son. Some think that a "generation" is from the time that a person enters adulthood until the son (usually the heir) enters adulthood, but the truth is that this does NOT constitute a "generation."

I'm not saying it does. In the context of Matt 24 verse 34 does not mean the cycle of regeneration. Verse 34 is a coupling of two ideas:

"This generation shall not pass," and, 

"...till all these things be fulfilled."

I first wondered what '...all these things..." meant. In the simplest understanding they must be what was talked about before the statement was made. But how far back in the conversation do I go? Well, it's all about the end of the age so; Where did that begin? It began with the questions,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

So all these things are the events Jesus spoke of in the discourse. 

So then "This generation..." is in that context as well, that of the end of the age. So we cannot define it as the cycle of regeneration mainly because that is not what's being talked about. In the simplest understanding it's, the people alive at the time that bear witness to every prophesied event between the question,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

and the statement,

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." 

I personally think this extends from v 35 to the end of the chapter, but in no way do I think the body of the discourse has anything to do with the destruction of the Temple as the thesis is,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

and the Temple's fate was answered outside this discourse with it's own prophecy.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

A "GENERATION" is not just some short period of time; it is an age of people who will do God's WILL! Right now, the Jews are adamantly against the Messiah being Yeshua`. As such, they are doing what is EVIL in ADONAI'S sight by rejecting HIS choice for King! And, how long have they been committing this sin? SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY A.D! We are still WAITING for the generation that accepts Yeshua` as God's choice for King!

Sure. You're convinced of this definition of a generation. In another context you could be right though it looks like a preterist notion, which you know I reject. Of course they are rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. It's likely they will right up to the moment of their assured and imminent destruction when the remnant of the Jewish people call out to Him with one voice. At least that's what I glean from the scriptures.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeah, my dad, an independent Baptist minister, felt the same way. He used to say that the generation that saw the birth of Israel in 1948 would be the generation that saw the return of the Lord. At first, he believed that a generation was 40 years, after the 40 years wandering of the children of Israel (which was Hal Lindsey's thought, as well). That put the coming in 1988. It didn't happen. Now, its 2020 and that's 32 years later, and Yeshua` STILL hasn't arrived!

Yeah, I heard all that too. But that has nothing to do with what Matt 24:34 is referencing. In the verse in question 'generation' is defined as:

"genea: race, family, generation" 

From this alone we see the context is paramount, as usual. An eye to context quickly shows this is not a cycle of regeneration but of the whole group of people in existence at the time. Below supports this and leaves no doubt about this understanding:

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; "

Genea is used many times for the extant population, and so it is in Matt 24:34.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses: They came to a similar conclusion about 1914. So, what did they do when Yeshua` didn't come in 1914? They DOUBLED DOWN and said that Yeshua` began His reign in Heaven at that time! This is how bad conclusions are made WORSE! Rather than make apologies about their prediction and swallow their pride, admitting their mistake, they SPIRITUALIZED (ALLEGORIZED) it away, putting it on a plane that others can't verify or prove right or wrong!

I can't answer for another group. I'm not influenced by that anymore. I was a long time ago when I was young and learning. One of the many things I learned is 99% of the time the consensus is incorrect. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Regarding the "statue or a man" theory, "abomination" means "disgusting thing." "Desolation" means to leave it empty or void, particularly void of life. The interesting thing is that the "abomination of desolation" can also be re-written as "desolation's abomination," just as "son of David" can be re-written as "David's son." So, it's "emptiness's disgusting thing." So far, I've not changed a thing; I just used synonyms. The "emptiness" is the desolation in which our Lord Yeshua` left the Jews in Matthew 23:38. The "disgusting thing" is the desecration and destruction of the Temple itself, the ultimate loss; not even the WORST idolatrous sacrifice could be as disgusting as that, especially to the Jews and the priests in charge of that Temple!

I don't disagree here except for your conclusion, "The "disgusting thing" is the desecration and destruction of the Temple itself" and this perception, "to the Jews and the priests in charge of that Temple!"

What you seem to be saying is; the A of D is primarily directed at the Jewish people and it's their disgust at the blasphemy in view. I don't think so. While I agree the A of D, and centuries later the Temple's demise, were both a shattering blow to the religious and national identity of the Jews and all of Israel, the scriptures support the blasphemy is directed toward the Creator of all things. The Temple and the Jewish people are of Almighty God and hence are symbolic of God's sovereignty. Any action against the Temple or the nation of Israel is an affront to our Father and a direct attack on His authority. That is the acme of understanding here and not the idea it's a big deal the Jews didn't feel good about the what happened; even though that is tragic.

But the real tragedy is one of the Jews still worshiping at a cold, stone edifice when God was gone from that place for centuries before it's destruction. You do realize the Temple is meaningless in terms of a relationship with our Savior? It bears no meaning for the remission of sin nor salvation and is just another altar built for false worship of a false god. Why do you think it was destroyed? Jesus, the Temple Himself and the very Light of all things came and presented the Way and the Truth. He had to get rid of the stone altar of a false system. God Himself directed the Temple be destroyed;

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Interesting that was around 70 years prior.

" (as it is written: “I have made thee a father of many nations”), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were." - Romans 4

That being said the A of D will still represent rebellion against the Most High even if the Temple itself is just another collection of stacked sedimentary material. 

And Jesus didn't leave the Jews. They rejected Him. Tried to throw Him off a cliff, tried to stone Him, eventually demanded His death by crucifixion. Let's assign blame in the proper fashion here. The Jews collectively rejected the very God they professed to worship. Individual Jews received Him with glad hearts, but not the leaders of the nation which were the religious sects, they had Him killed. You have the order of things incorrect in this.

 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (the children of Israel) also now not believed, that through YOUR  mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

While you are right that it is through the power of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God), He has CHOSEN to work through US who are GENTILE (NON-ISRAELI) BELIEVERS to bring them back to God!!!

Wow. That's...painful. Seriously. You really believe that?

That's a violation of many concepts and even feels like a character attack. 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

OF COURSE they expect an earthly Messiah! So have ALL of God's children down through the years! He's who I expect, also! He shall PHYSICALLY REIGN FROM JERUSALEM!
 

No. Wrong idea. The Jews expect a temporal messiah. A Jew from the line of David. They literally think any Jewish male alive can be the messiah if they are of the lineage of David. Ask them. They are not looking for the Son of man, they are looking for the son of a man. That's reality. Your attempted twist is a losing move.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Nay-sayer! Which "histories?" That by secular historians, like Josephus? or those by church historians? It's PRECISELY what happened, according to the church historians, and even the secular historians alluded to this truth! Please! Investigate it for yourself and see what was written!

I'm agreeing with you here. To what I do not agree is the conflation between what Florus did and the A of D as described in scripture, as well as the description of it in the Jewish Encyclopedia. 

"Upon taking office in Caesarea, Florus began favoring local Greek population of the city over the Jewish population. The local Greek population noticed Florus' policies and took advantage of the circumstances. One notable instance of provocation occurred while the Jews were worshiping at their local synagogue and a Hellenist sacrificed several birds on top of an earthenware container at the entrance of the synagogue, an act that rendered the building ritually unclean. In response to this action, the Jews sent a group of men to petition Florus for redress. Despite accepting a payment of eight talents to hear the case, Florus refused to listen to the complaints and instead had the petitioners imprisoned" - Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 14, Section 5

Compare:

"An officer, Apollonius, was sent through the country with an armed troop, commissioned to slay and destroy. He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city. Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected. The officers charged with carrying out these commands did so with great rigor; a veritable inquisition was established with monthly sessions for investigation. The possession of a sacred book or the performance of the rite of circumcision was punished with death. On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem" - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

:This account of Antiochus IV is much closer to

"he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" - Dan 9

"on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." - Dan 11

" standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation," - Matt 24

than the account of Florus. Florus did not erect a statue in the Holy Place. He mostly incited and demanded bribes. Antiochus literally fulfilled Daniel 9, 11 and the accounts from the Gospels. I'm not saying Antiochus is the fulfillment of the Gospel accounts as they were a century and half later. The template is there in history for the prophecy in the gospel to come to pass at some later date, and it's not fulfilled in the 'not one stone will be left upon another that had not been thrown down.' idea.

 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, I'm not giving a subjective opinion. I'm giving you objective truth! As I already said above, the word "generation" does NOT mean "from the time a person becomes an adult to the time his son (usually his heir) becomes an adult." Look carefully at the argument presented in the post above! A "generation" doesn't count evil, irresponsible people in charge! Those evil "supposed generations" who could have been listed in Matthew's Account of Yeshua`s genealogy were SKIPPED! <Sigh.> Just read it and think about it. It was written IN GOD'S WORD (Matt. 1:17) that "from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations." WHY? Why doesn't this match with 2 Kings?

I'm sorry but that's just fantasy. I addressed the real idea behind the word genea in Matt 24:34 based on the context in which it is found. You're free to believe anything you wish; but you should examine if you really do have the freedom or if there is some impediment. Just saying.

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm not saying it does. In the context of Matt 24 verse 34 does not mean the cycle of regeneration. Verse 34 is a coupling of two ideas:

"This generation shall not pass," and, 

"...till all these things be fulfilled."

I first wondered what '...all these things..." meant. In the simplest understanding they must be what was talked about before the statement was made. But how far back in the conversation do I go? Well, it's all about the end of the age so; Where did that begin? It began with the questions,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Shalom, Diaste.

Well, that's part of it. WHEN they asked, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" they asked Yeshua` as soon as they could after He said what He said about the Temple!

The Olivet Discourse is seen in ALL THREE synoptic Gospels! 

Luke 21:5-7 (KJV)

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 

6 "As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

7 And they asked him, saying,

"Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

To what else could "these things" refer?! You can't just throw all of what Yeshua` said in His response under the "DISTANT FUTURE" bus! He handled the NEAR FUTURE, TOO! You've got to understand that! Denying it is futile ... and short-sighted. By doing so, you've limited your understanding of the Olivet Discourse! Consequently, everything you conclude about the Olivet Discourse is SUSPECT! One cannot rely upon or trust your conclusions, and that makes them dangerous and false!

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

So all these things are the events Jesus spoke of in the discourse. 

So then "This generation..." is in that context as well, that of the end of the age. So we cannot define it as the cycle of regeneration mainly because that is not what's being talked about. In the simplest understanding it's, the people alive at the time that bear witness to every prophesied event between the question,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

and the statement,

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." 

I personally think this extends from v 35 to the end of the chapter, but in no way do I think the body of the discourse has anything to do with the destruction of the Temple as the thesis is,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

and the Temple's fate was answered outside this discourse with it's own prophecy.

That's desperation talking. They asked this IMMEDIATELY AFTER Yeshua` said what He said about the Temple!

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure. You're convinced of this definition of a generation. In another context you could be right though it looks like a preterist notion, which you know I reject.

I'm convinced of this definition because it is so used in Scripture, particularly Matthew 1.

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course they are rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. It's likely they will right up to the moment of their assured and imminent destruction when the remnant of the Jewish people call out to Him with one voice. At least that's what I glean from the scriptures.

Yeah, I heard all that too. But that has nothing to do with what Matt 24:34 is referencing. In the verse in question 'generation' is defined as:

"genea: race, family, generation" 

I actually agree with you on this definition; however, you're not taking this definition to its ultimate conclusions in light of Matthew 1. Think of the time line in terms of black and white, where "black" represents the periods of when the "potential generation" did what was evil in God's sight, and the "white" represents the periods of when the "generation" did what was right in God's sight.

In Matthew 1, there were fourteen such generations from David the king until the carrying away into Babylon. The black periods were not counted. Instead, only the white periods were counted to make the 14, although the whole period consisted of both the white periods and the black periods.

The same is true here in Matthew 24: From the time that Yeshua` pronounced the Jews of Jerusalem, the ELDERS of the tribe of Yhudah, "DESOLATE," until the Lord Yeshua` returns shall be ONE GENERATION! "One People," if you will. The timeline has been black for almost 2,000 years, but there shall be a period of white just before His return. That white period in which they do what is right in God's sight is the time when Psalm 118:26 will be fulfilled, which in turn will fulfill Matthew 23:39, and our Lord will return.

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

From this alone we see the context is paramount, as usual. An eye to context quickly shows this is not a cycle of regeneration but of the whole group of people in existence at the time.

 

Below supports this and leaves no doubt about this understanding:

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; "

Genea is used many times for the extant population, and so it is in Matt 24:34.

This Greek word "genea" is also used in Matthew 1:14 in its nominative, plural form "geneai" in the phrase "geneai dekatessares," "fourteen generations."

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

...

I don't disagree here except for your conclusion, "The "disgusting thing" is the desecration and destruction of the Temple itself" and this perception, "to the Jews and the priests in charge of that Temple!"

What you seem to be saying is; the A of D is primarily directed at the Jewish people and it's their disgust at the blasphemy in view. I don't think so. While I agree the A of D, and centuries later the Temple's demise, were both a shattering blow to the religious and national identity of the Jews and all of Israel, the scriptures support the blasphemy is directed toward the Creator of all things. The Temple and the Jewish people are of Almighty God and hence are symbolic of God's sovereignty. Any action against the Temple or the nation of Israel is an affront to our Father and a direct attack on His authority. That is the acme of understanding here and not the idea it's a big deal the Jews didn't feel good about the what happened; even though that is tragic.

But the real tragedy is one of the Jews still worshiping at a cold, stone edifice when God was gone from that place for centuries before it's destruction. You do realize the Temple is meaningless in terms of a relationship with our Savior?

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about! Do you really think that Yeshua` looked at the Temple, His Father's House that He zealously defended, as a "cold, stone edifice when God was gone from that place for centuries before its destruction"?! I think you're going to have to eat those words when you face Yeshua`!

As Ricky Ricardo was known to say, "Lucy, you've got some splainin' to do!"

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

It bears no meaning for the remission of sin nor salvation and is just another altar built for false worship of a false god. Why do you think it was destroyed? Jesus, the Temple Himself and the very Light of all things came and presented the Way and the Truth. He had to get rid of the stone altar of a false system. God Himself directed the Temple be destroyed;

"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Oh, really?! Please read Hebrews 9-11! What was the point of Yeshua`s death splitting the veil of the Temple in two?

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Interesting that was around 70 years prior.

 

I think you mean "40 years prior."

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

" (as it is written: “I have made thee a father of many nations”), in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were." - Romans 4

That being said the A of D will still represent rebellion against the Most High even if the Temple itself is just another collection of stacked sedimentary material. 

And Jesus didn't leave the Jews. They rejected Him. Tried to throw Him off a cliff, tried to stone Him, eventually demanded His death by crucifixion. Let's assign blame in the proper fashion here. The Jews collectively rejected the very God they professed to worship. Individual Jews received Him with glad hearts, but not the leaders of the nation which were the religious sects, they had Him killed. You have the order of things incorrect in this.

 

I'll talk about the abomination of desolation next time.