The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Look, the answer is quite simple: Lukas just didn't record the walk out to the Mount of Olives. Verses 1-6 DO happen within the Temple property, but the QUESTIONS and ANSWERS weren't delivered there; they happened later on the Mount of Olives! Compare to the others:

Retrobyter,  Jesus was talking to two different groups.     The ones in Luke were people in the temple grounds gathered around him, calling him "master".   

The group at the Mt. of Olives were the disciples, perhaps some or all of whom were not there in temple grounds presentation Jesus made.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

You all just don't want to admit that this "abomination of desolation" happened already in the First Century A.D! They all fled from Jerusalem in 68 A.D., and the desolation occurred in 70 A.D.

I don't agree that the abomination of desolation happend in the first century A.D. - true.    The abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 triggers the great tribulation that will never again be equaled... if not cut short, no flesh would be saved.    Nothing happened in the first century A.D. that fits that criteria.     in Revelation 7:9-14, them coming out of great tribulation are from all the nations, peoples, tongues, of the whole world.

Edited June 23, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, douggg said:

Retrobyter,  Jesus was talking to two different groups.     The ones in Luke were people in the temple grounds gathered around him, calling him "master".   

The group at the Mt. of Olives were the disciples, perhaps some or all of whom were not there in temple grounds presentation Jesus made.

I don't agree that the abomination of desolation happend in the first century A.D. - true.    The abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 triggers the great tribulation that will never again be equaled... if not cut short, no flesh would be saved.    Nothing happened in the first century A.D. that fits that criteria.     in Revelation 7:9-14, them coming out of great tribulation are from all the nations, peoples, tongues, of the whole world.

Shalom, douggg.

The Greek word for "Master" here is "Didaskale," the vocative case of "didaskalos," which means "TEACHER!" They were directly addressing Yeshua` as "Teacher." If Yeshua` is their "teacher," then they would be His disciples.

Matthew (Mattityahuw) said,

Matthew 24:1 (KJV)

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and HIS DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

John Mark (Yochanan surnamed "Marcus," from a Roman patron) said,

Mark 13:1 (KJV)

1 And as he went out of the temple, ONE OF HIS DISCIPLES saith unto him,

"Master (Greek: Didaskale), see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

(Some say that John Mark was writing for Peter.)

SAME WORD!!! Hmmmm... I wonder who said "Didaskale" in Luke!

You've got to understand that these disciples were giving the SAME INFORMATION from three different perspectives! That's why these Gospels were called the "SYNOPTIC Gospels!" "Synoptic" means "together-seeing," coming from the Greek words "sun" and "optikos."

Lukas the Physician was writing a SYNOPSIS of many accounts into one. This is according to his own words:

Luke 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, douggg.

The Greek word for "Master" here is "Didaskale," the vocative case of "didaskalos," which means "TEACHER!" They were directly addressing Yeshua` as "Teacher." If Yeshua` is their "teacher," then they would be His disciples.

Matthew (Mattityahuw) said,

Matthew 24:1 (KJV)

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and HIS DISCIPLES CAME TO HIM for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

John Mark (Yochanan surnamed "Marcus," from a Roman patron) said,

Mark 13:1 (KJV)

1 And as he went out of the temple, ONE OF HIS DISCIPLES saith unto him,

"Master (Greek: Didaskale), see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

(Some say that John Mark was writing for Peter.)

SAME WORD!!! Hmmmm... I wonder who said "Didaskale" in Luke!

You've got to understand that these disciples were giving the SAME INFORMATION from three different perspectives! That's why these Gospels were called the "SYNOPTIC Gospels!" "Synoptic" means "together-seeing," coming from the Greek words "sun" and "optikos."

Lukas the Physician was writing a SYNOPSIS of many accounts into one. This is according to his own words:

Luke 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

There were the twelve disciples - Luke 9:1  

And 70 more disciples -  Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

So, the Olivet Discourse is not a matter of the same persons asking the same questions twice (i.e. in the temple courtyard and on the Mt. Olives).

Plus, those are "appointed" disciples.   To have called Jesus, Master, teacher, there in the temple courtyard, as he was teaching,  it would have simply meant people were amazed at what he taught - who called him master, teacher, in recognition of his wisdom and knowledge.    And not necessarily be any part of either the 70 appointed or 12 appointed disciples.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

There were the twelve disciples - Luke 9:1  

And 70 more disciples -  Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

So, the Olivet Discourse is not a matter of the same persons asking the same questions twice (i.e. in the temple courtyard and on the Mt. Olives).

Plus, those are "appointed" disciples.   To have called Jesus, Master, teacher, there in the temple courtyard, as he was teaching,  it would have simply meant people were amazed at what he taught - who called him master, teacher, in recognition of his wisdom and knowledge.    And not necessarily be any part of either the 70 appointed or 12 appointed disciples.

 

Shalom, douggg.

Well, I'm not going to argue any more about it. You can believe what you believe is the truth. I'll believe what I believe to be the truth.

I'm just going to challenge you to compare the Greek versions of the three accounts and see how similar they are. The accounts will sometimes even say the EXACT SAME THING except for ONE word added in one account, and they will receive TOTALLY different translations because of the one word! I could cite examples, but I think it would be more fun for you if you attempt it on your own.

What I did, if you want some help on how to get started, was to use my Greek New Testament and my word processor (MS Word) and type out each one from beginning to end. That way, you can print them out and put them side by side. Unless you have a Greek font, just use some common transliteration scheme. I use the one put out by BibleSoft. I use this variety simply because I don't easily have the capability to put a line over a vowel to make the distinction between an epsilon (e) and an eta (ee), or between an omicron (o) and an omega (oo). So, I use the double-letter distinction, as I just demonstrated. You just have to get used to the idea that "ee" says "ay" as in "day" (not "ee" as in "bee") and "oo" says "o" as in "vote" (not "oo" as in "moon"). The epsilon (e) says "eh" as in "bed," and the omicron (o) says "o" as in "dog." That way, I don't have to slow down when I'm typing.

Then, after typing out each of these Greek texts, I used MS Excel and put in the word, the translation/meaning of that word, the book, the chapter, the verse number, and the word number within the verse, using the columns for each of these categories, and the rows for each word in the text. These category rows I duplicated for each of the three Gospels, and had all three across the spreadsheet. Then, I could move sections of the text up or down as a group and line up the same words that appear in each Gospel. For instance, all three talk about "woe to them that are with child"; so, you can put the words that were used for that phrase on the same group of rows, lining up the Greek words that are the same.

For me, it was a FUN game to play that was also quite instructive about the three Gospel accounts of what is commonly called "the Olivet Discourse." I hope you will enjoy it, too.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/23/2020 at 12:54 AM, The Light said:

Shalom Brother. I read far enough. I read it all, many times.

My exact point.

The twelve tribes of Israel will have 144,000 first fruits (wave offering) before the throne which guarantees a harvest of 12 tribes across the earth. (if the first fruit is holy, the lump is holy) This harvest of the 12 tribes will occur after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which will be the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

Shalom, The Light.

And yet, we still seem to be on different pages. Somehow, you're not understanding that the "lump" was in PAUL'S day back in the First Century A.D, not off in the unknown future! "Holy" does NOT mean "righteous!" It simply means that they are SINGLED OUT! They are SPECIAL to YHWH, not for anything they have done, but for the FATHERS' SAKES!

No, the "fulness" of the Gentiles is when God has had enough of them overrunning Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). This hails back to Luke 21:24:

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies (this happened in 68 A.D.), then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Everyone seems to think that the "fulness of the Gentiles" is a good thing, when really it is just the OPPOSITE!

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Retrobyter
to colorize the text quoted

[Retrobyter]

On 6/21/2020 at 9:10 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

The Light, why do you separate the church from the children of Israel? 

Shalom, ENOCH2010.

I'm very glad that they were taught to separate the "churches" from the children of Israel. That teaching was very important to avoid the Replacement Theology that was so prevalent in the Roman Catholic Church and in the Protestants who came out of the RCC.

HOWEVER, now it's time to show them that they are NOT truly separated, for Gentile believers are graffed into the Olive Tree "contrary to nature," of which the Jews are "natural branches." In other words, Jews don't become members of the "church"; the Gentile believers become members of the children of Israel!

There's nothing special about the word "church," either. It comes from the Greek word "kuriokon," which means "of the Lord." The Greek word usually TRANSLATED as "church" is the word "ekkleesia," which means "a called-out [gathering, meeting, or congregation]." A few times, it was also translated "assembly."  It was the word used for the unruly mob at Ephesus who were crying out "Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" (Acts 19:32, 39, and 41.) This is why, for a time, the two Greek words were used together: "ekkleesia kuriokon," the "called-out [gathering] of the Lord" to identify the specific "assembly" to which they were referring. And, this explains the switch from "ekkleesia" to "kuriokon" which morphed into the current word, "church."

And, although we read ...

"Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it," (Ephesians 5:25)

we know that the Messiah ("Christ") loved the PEOPLE that constituted the "church," not the lifeless organization itself! And, He most CERTAINLY didn't "give Himself" for the building, that many call a "church!"

There's another time that it was translated as "church" in Acts where Stephen said:

Acts 7:35 (KJV)

35 "This Moses whom they refused, saying,

'Who made thee a ruler and a judge?'

the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,

'A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.'

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles (the Torah) to give unto us: ..."

Here, the word is used to speak of the congregation of Israel in the wilderness, wandering for 40 years. It is THIS use of the word "ekkleesia" into which we all are graffed!

[Scott Free]

On 3/7/2020 at 2:02 PM, not an echo said:

I have long been inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order.

The divisions of Revelation are by the story teller. A defining factor of each of the seven main revealings is the point of view and scope of time covered is relative between each of the presentations. The recognized divisions are by chapter and make the beautiful pattern 3-3-3-4-3-3-3. This is the perfect arrangement in my mind. I am awestruck every time I consider it. Thank you Jesus.  

Edited June 26, 2020 by Scott Free

[The Light]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, The Light.

And yet, we still seem to be on different pages.

Greetings Retrobyter,

On that we can agree.

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Somehow, you're not understanding that the "lump" was in PAUL'S day back in the First Century A.D, not off in the unknown future!

This is not correct. The "if" designates a future conclusion.

Rom 11

¹⁶ For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

¹⁷ And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

So, IF the 144,000 be holy, the lump is holy. Since we know that the 144,000 first fruits are before the throne of God, we know that the wave offering is HOLY. We can conclude the the lump (12 tribes across the earth) is holy

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Holy" does NOT mean "righteous!" It simply means that they are SINGLED OUT! They are SPECIAL to YHWH, not for anything they have done, but for the FATHERS' SAKES!

That works for me and changes nothing.

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, the "fulness" of the Gentiles is when God has had enough of them overrunning Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). This hails back to Luke 21:24:

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies (this happened in 68 A.D.), then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Everyone seems to think that the "fulness of the Gentiles" is a good thing, when really it is just the OPPOSITE!

You are cross contaminating two scriptures.

What you are saying about the TIMES OF THE GENTILES is correct. But that has nothing to do with the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES. Here we see that the fullness of the Jews will exceed that of the Gentiles and that will be a good thing.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Greetings Retrobyter,

On that we can agree.

This is not correct. The "if" designates a future conclusion.

Rom 11

¹⁶ For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

¹⁷ And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

So, IF the 144,000 be holy, the lump is holy. Since we know that the 144,000 first fruits are before the throne of God, we know that the wave offering is HOLY. We can conclude the the lump (12 tribes across the earth) is holy

No, in Romans 11, this is a STATE OF BEING, not a look at the future! Not all if-then relationships are time-related. In point of fact, very few are so related!

If a food is sweet, then it is a food that contains sugar or a sugar substitute.

If a pencil is broken then it needs to be replaced.

And, the list goes on and on indefinitely! States of being are conditions that exist regardless of the timing.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

You are cross contaminating two scriptures.

What you are saying about the TIMES OF THE GENTILES is correct. But that has nothing to do with the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES. Here we see that the fullness of the Jews will exceed that of the Gentiles and that will be a good thing.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Okay, I'll concede to this. I was thinking of another passage in the prophecies, and thought to "cut corners" by using Romans 11:25, rather than take the time to look up the other. I didn't do my due diligence to check the Greek terms, and you are right. Both words in verses 12 and 25 are the same: pleerooma = "fulness."

ON THE OTHER HAND, the "fulness" of the Gentiles does NOT equate to the Rapture! That's back at you to prove! You had said,

Quote

The twelve tribes of Israel will have 144,000 first fruits (wave offering) before the throne which guarantees a harvest of 12 tribes across the earth. (if the first fruit is holy, the lump is holy) This harvest of the 12 tribes will occur after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which will be the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

I believe that you will find it hard to prove that there even WILL be a "pretribulation rapture," let alone that the "fulness of the Gentiles" will be such a rapture!

To the contrary, we're already IN the "tribulation" period, which is NOT a "7-year period" (or a "3-1/2-year period"), but is rather an almost TWO-THOUSAND-YEAR period (so far), also known as the "Time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) Trouble!" The first half of the Seventieth Seven of Daniel 9 was the 3-1/2-year "ministry" of our Lord (the offer of the Kingdom to Israel) during the First Advent. The second half of the Seventieth Seven (another 3-1/2-year period of Yeshua` offering the Kingdom to Israel) will occur AFTER our Lord Yeshua`, God's Messiah, returns beginning the SECOND Advent in which will be His Kingdom during the Millennium.

With that understanding, you can't have a "PREtribulational" ANYTHING yet to come! The "tribulation" has ALREADY BEGUN!

Furthermore, there's no "heaven" to which one may go! When we die, we go to the grave and await the Resurrection. The Scriptures NEVER say to anticipate "going to Heaven" when we die! Furthermore, we have MANY references to an anticipation of the Resurrection! As modern-day Christians, many have succumbed to the "Christoplatonism" of the Greek philosophy merged into Christian teaching in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries A.D. The truth is, however, that the "soul" is the "air-breathing creature!" One is not a "soul" again until AFTER the Resurrection!

Immediately after the Resurrection (and Transformation), once-dead believers will be transported ("raptured") from wherever they were buried in the ground, buried at sea, or cremated to be with the Master Yeshua` in Israel to meet Him in the skies over the Land. Those of us who are still alive at the time will be transformed and also transported ("raptured") to the skies over the Middle East to meet the Lord in the air, and we all will NEVER be separated from Him again!

Yeshua`s Kingdom will grow throughout the Millennium until all of His enemies have been defeated. Then, at the end of the Millennium, He will turn His Kingdom over to the Father and God will be the world-wide Emperor from then on. Yeshua` will return to be "just" the King of Israel forever.

After the Millennium - the FIRST 1,000 years of our Lord Yeshua`s Eternal Kingdom - and after the Great White Throne Judgment, God will re-form the earth, calling it the NEW Earth, reform the skies into the NEW skies, and to this New Earth and skies will descend the New Jerusalem, our forever-home! It is not until THEN that God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes!

[Diaste]

On 3/7/2020 at 1:02 PM, not an echo said:

I believe we can all agree that a very important consideration in the study of any end time view is the question of the order in which The Revelation was given to John.  I have long been inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order.

For example, it is quite evident that the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible.  One thing leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth throughout the first 10 chapters---without fail.  No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Basically, there is the introduction, followed by the letters to the seven churches, followed by a vision of God and the Lamb, followed by the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, followed by the sounding of the first six (of seven) trumpets, followed by John's account of an angel that he saw, who had in his hand "a little book open."  Following is an illustration of how straightforward the first 10 chapters are laid out:

                            

Certainly you don't include the first 5 in a chronology. John is in real time in the first 5. Chapter 6 would begin the chronology.

 

On 3/7/2020 at 1:02 PM, not an echo said:

 

After chapter 10, there is a difference in the manner in which John records things.  This difference is closely related to what he writes concerning the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19, for what he here records is like a concise overview of what will be taking place throughout the next several chapters.  More precisely, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.  In accord with the way the Bible's chapters are divided (which I attribute to the hand of God!), it appears that after John is given the brief overview of this period, he uses an overlapping method of recording all of the details of it---again, without fail.  While the order of this section is still chronological, portions of some events are revealed from different angles along the way, making for some overlaps of information, as could be expected.  Because of this, it is not quite as simple to follow the order of this section, but there is a definite pattern and progression of events.  A survey of the details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half.  Following is an illustration of the overlapping method in which chapters 11 through 20 are laid out:

                                 

Finally, the last two chapters of The Revelation also continue chronologically, but as a whole, and reveal John's vision of God's Heaven and the conclusion of The Revelation, as well as The Bible.

                                                                                  

Simplified further, that's 10 chapters with no overlapping pattern, 10 chapters with an overlapping pattern, and 2 chapters as a unit.

Simplified further, and very memorable, that's 10, 10, and 2.

The Revelation has a most awesome structure.  And for me, once seen, it can't be unseen.

So then the 3 sections would have no overlap with each other? I don't know if that's what you're saying or not. It sounds like that's what you are getting at. If that's the case there are problems.