The Trib Is Before the Resurrection Is Before the Rapture

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Sounds you're trying to convince yourself.

 SMH

[Justin Adams]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Justin,

Yes we are all God`s children HOWEVER each group has a different inheritance.

Have you ever thought on -

Who will be on the earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

Who will rule over the kings of the earth? (Micah 4: 1 - 3 in the millennium & beyond)

Who will be in the New Jerusalem? (Heb. 11: 16)

Who will be with the Lord in the highest realm on His throne? (Rev. 3: 21)

???????

Yes, and am weary of all these postulations. There is not a '1000' year thing - It is all a Mosaic - a picture.
NO pre-trib anything, and no Darby or Augustine or Calvin or modern bishop-speak ideas.

Too  many 'prophets' spoil their own self-styled soup of enlightenment - it nourishes few and may poison many.

Believers are all glorified Sons of God and share His throne. It is NOT a geographically limited future - it spans time and space as the old is done away with and the new comes to pass.
It is COSMIC and the various texts just give us an overall motiff.

Why try to describe what Yahweh/Yeshua has said is indescribable? Why categorize a realm we have no clue about?

Eye had not seen... etc.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Yes, and am weary of all these postulations. There is not a '1000' year thing - It is all a Mosaic - a picture.
NO pre-trib anything, and no Darby or Augustine or Calvin or modern bishop-speak ideas.

Too  many 'prophets' spoil their own self-styled soup of enlightenment - it nourishes few and may poison many.

Believers are all glorified Sons of God and share His throne. It is NOT a geographically limited future - it spans time and space as the old is done away with and the new comes to pass.
It is COSMIC and the various texts just give us an overall motiff.

Why try to describe what Yahweh/Yeshua has said is indescribable? Why categorize a realm we have no clue about?

Eye had not seen... etc.

Shalom, Justin Adams.

Yep. Spoils it JUST like that! "It is COSMIC?" What does that even mean? The Greek word "kosmos," from which "cosmic" comes, is translated as the "world," and means the "orderly arrangement of the earth":

Strong's says,

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

2865 komizoo (kom-id'-zo). From a primary komeoo (to tend, i.e. Take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain) -- bring, receive.

"It spans time and space?" That's NONSENSE! We, in Adam, were MADE to be limited by time and space! That's what we are! We were created for our habitation of earth and atmosphere; and we shall be so re-created in the Resurrection, as well! We were created as three-dimensional creatures that live in space and move through time. "Time" is used to describe our movement through space! We may say, for instance, that we travel at "60 miles per hour" in a car. "Miles" are a unit of length, and "hour" is a unit of time, and we may travel in any of three Cartesian dimensions, horizontally east and west, horizontally north and south, and vertically up and down, the combination of which describes our movement in any direction within 3D-space.

We are so limited by the fact that we are made of mass and shall be in the Resurrection, as well. Even the New Jerusalem is described as such, with gates facing "north, south, east, and west!" We are told that the city "lieth foursquare" (that is, covers a square base) and that its dimensions are equal:

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

"Twelve thousand furlongs" are the Greek words "stadioon doodeka chiliadoon," which translates directly to "stads twelve thousands." And, the "stad" is a ROMAN measurement frequently called an eighth of a Roman mile. From the mile markers that are still extant all over the continent of Europe, we have found this measure to be 607.142222... feet in length. (See Ancient Roman units of measurement in Wikipedia.)

Therefore, 12,000 stads = 12,000 x 607.142222... ft/stad / 5280 ft/mi = 1379.868686... miles long. While that is a HUGE distance, it is, after all, finite and limited!

It's typically human (and a bit goofy) for one to allow one's imagination to run wild beyond the confines of the ABSOLUTE Word of God!

[Justin Adams]

Maybe read Deut 32 and Psalm 82. The Heavenly Council of God and the OTHER worldly concept of an end times scenario that bridges all dimensions, heavenly and earthly that bring the non dimentional into the realm of our REALITY.

The 'unseen real', as C S Lewis puts it is definite and not geographical but COSMIC GEOGRAPHY in the sense of all encompassing. As in Heaven, so on the earth. It is not foolish conjecture to consider this, it is scriptural. Time is a mere construct and one day will have served it function. Glorification as mention by the apostle is not constrained by our mere physical being and understanding. The battle for all the marbles will demonstrate to all of us this very real marrying of heaven and earth. Bashan vs Heaven.

Ps. Yeshua could walk thru walls...

http://www.moreunseenrealm.com/?page_id=4

Edited April 5, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Last Daze]

8 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Maybe read Deut 32 and Psalm 82. The Heavenly Council of God and the OTHER worldly concept of an end times scenario that bridges all dimensions, heavenly and earthly that bring the non dimentional into the realm of our REALITY.

The 'unseen real', as C S Lewis puts it is definite and not geographical but COSMIC GEOGRAPHY in the sense of all encompassing. As in Heaven, so on the earth. It is not foolish conjecture to consider this, it is scriptural. Time is a mere construct and one day will have served it function. Glorification as mention by the apostle is not constrained by our mere physical being and understanding. The battle for all the marbles will demonstrate to all of us this very real marrying of heaven and earth. Bashan vs Heaven.

Ps. Yeshua could walk thru walls...

http://www.moreunseenrealm.com/?page_id=42

Yes.  Both heaven and earth will be shaken.

• And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.”  This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.  Hebrews 12:26-27

No one should expect an easy go of it.  We will be brought to the unity of the faith through the mark and the image.  Contrary to popular myth, there will be no pre-trib rapture.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Maybe read Deut 32 and Psalm 82. The Heavenly Council of God and the OTHER worldly concept of an end times scenario that bridges all dimensions, heavenly and earthly that bring the non dimentional into the realm of our REALITY.

The 'unseen real', as C S Lewis puts it is definite and not geographical but COSMIC GEOGRAPHY in the sense of all encompassing. As in Heaven, so on the earth. It is not foolish conjecture to consider this, it is scriptural. Time is a mere construct and one day will have served it function. Glorification as mention by the apostle is not constrained by our mere physical being and understanding. The battle for all the marbles will demonstrate to all of us this very real marrying of heaven and earth. Bashan vs Heaven.

Ps. Yeshua could walk thru walls...

http://www.moreunseenrealm.com/?page_id=4

Shalom, Justin Adams.

Sorry, but Deuteronomy 32 and Psalm 82 don't speak of "The Heavenly Council of God and the OTHER worldly concept of an end times scenario that bridges all dimensions, heavenly and earthly that bring the non-dimensional into the realm of our REALITY." Again, what in the world are you talking about?! That's all just a stinky, gooey pile of NONSENSE! It might be good for fertilizer, but nothing else!

It most surely IS "foolish conjecture!" Time is NOT just a "mere construct," and it does NOT end! Where'd you get THAT load of garbage?! It's a very basic fact of physics that "rate of speed = change in position / change in time." Rearranged, we can say that the "change in time = change in position / rate of speed." Unless one is suggesting that everything in the Universe will be immobile, time will continue to exist!

STICK TO THE FACTS OF GOD'S WORD!!!!! It's clear from Scripture, for instance, that God's servants will continue to reign forever. That's not possible if time doesn't exist! How would one who is immobile enjoy the New Earth or the New Jerusalem? How will one be able to eat from the Tree of Life, if one cannot pluck its fruit and eat it? What good is a street made of pure gold if one cannot walk upon it? What good is having a "mansion" or a "room" in the Father's house, if one cannot go in and out of it?

Maybe this is where you get the notion, but others have come to this conclusion from a single passage in Revelation:

Revelation 10:5-6 (KJV)

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

However, one should read on ...

Revelation 10:7 (KJV)

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

In context, and when one investigates the Greek words used in the verses, one must come to the conclusion that it is "that there should be no longer any DELAY," NOT "that there should no longer be any TIME!" It's just an unfortunate choice of words used in translation by which one might come to the wrong conclusion!

And, regarding "Yeshua could walk thru walls...," while that is a common ASSUMPTION, we're not told that He did! The actual wording of the passage in Luke is ....

Luke 24:33-42 (KJV)

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying,

"The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon!" 

35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. 
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

How He got into the room, we aren't told! He was just suddenly in the middle of them!

John tells us ...

John 20:19-23 (KJV) 

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again,

"Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,

"Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

and

1 John 1:1-4 (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah). 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

He didn't say anything about how He got into the room! He may have slid in with them unnoticed before the doors were closed, or He may simply have been invisible. WE DON'T KNOW!

[Justin Adams]

Brother. You ain't got a clue...  But I see I have hit a hot button. I see Augustine and others of a similar ilk have clouded your mind perhaps.

"That's all just a stinky, gooey pile of NONSENSE! It might be good for fertilizer, but nothing else!" 

Nice comment!!

The Deut 32 worldview explains the scattering that Pentecost addressed.. Psalm 82 explains the end of the Sons of God over the nations and 'they shall die like men'. Their indictment in the Eschaton.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Justin Adams

[WilliamL]

On 4/2/2020 at 11:16 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi William,

1. The Body of Christ is NOT `asleep in the dust,` but in the General Assembly. (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

2. The Body of Christ was not known about in the OT.

3. Daniel is referring to the people of Israel.

You are not rightly dividing the word of truth, (2 Tim. 2: 15)

God has purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Gentile nations. (1 Cor. 10: 12) Mix those up and you get all sorts of errors and confusion.

Daniel 12:1 [At the time of the end (11:40)], At that time, Michael shall stand up…and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

Matt. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The same great tribulation will come upon Jew and Church and Gentile. At the end of the tribulation, the Church will ascend, the Jews will be converted, and the nations will at first flee, then later rebel.

[missmuffet]

From what I have studied that is not what the Bible tells me. 

[Retrobyter]

On 4/6/2020 at 3:16 AM, Justin Adams said:

Brother. You ain't got a clue...  But I see I have hit a hot button. I see Augustine and others of a similar ilk have clouded your mind perhaps.

"That's all just a stinky, gooey pile of NONSENSE! It might be good for fertilizer, but nothing else!" 

Nice comment!!

The Deut 32 worldview explains the scattering that Pentecost addressed.. Psalm 82 explains the end of the Sons of God over the nations and 'they shall die like men'. Their indictment in the Eschaton.

Shalom, Justin Adams.

Well, I do apologize for the NOT-SO "nice comment," but bad information is just as good in God's sight.

As far as "not having a clue," I could really say the same thing about YOU! Let's look at the two passages: (Forgive me, please, but since you don't specify the verses, you should know by now that I'm not afraid of quoting the whole chapter.)

Deuteronomy 32:1-52 (KJV)

1 (A Song of Moses) "Give ear, O ye heavens (Hebrew: hashaamayim = the-skies [dual]), and I will speak; and hear, O earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = the-land), the words of my mouth.

2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob (Hebrew: Ya`aqoV = trickster) is the lot of his inheritance.

10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:

12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;

14 Butter of kine (cattle), and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood (juice) of the grape.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said,

'I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God (idols); they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Hebrew: `ad sh'owl tachtiyt = "as-far-as 'asked-about' lowest"), and shall consume the earth (Hebrew: erets = "Land") with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains (magma generating lava from volcanos).

23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.

28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!'

30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.'

36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say,

'Where are their gods (id0ls), their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, "I live for ever!"

41 If I whet (sharpen) my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.'

43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people."

44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea (Joshua) the son of Nun. 45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: 46 And he said unto them,

"Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. 47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it."

48 And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying, 

49 "Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession: 50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: 51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. 52 Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel."

Look. You CAN'T GENERALIZE something into some UNIVERSAL statement, just because you feel like it! Who was Moses talking to in the words of this song? How does it start? How does it end? Yes, God's words are time-spanning because He sees all of the timeline at once, but to whom is God talking through His prophet Moses? He was talking to the children of Israel! He was talking to the faithless among them who still held onto the idols they had remembered in Egypt! And, the words His prophet spoke also extended to the faithless who would cause the demise of the Babylonian Captivity! Verse 21 is even quoted by Paul in Romans 10:19:

Romans 10:11-21 (KJV)

11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 

13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Joel 2:32)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed (trusted)? and how shall they believe (trust) in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (a herald)? 15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Isaiah 52:7)

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias (Yeeshayahuw or "Isaiah") saith,

"Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Isaiah 53:1)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily,

"their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Psalm 19:4)

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith,

"I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you." (Deuteronomy 32:21)

20 But Esaias (Yeeshayahuw or "Isaiah") is very bold, and saith,

"I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." (Isaiah 65:1)

21 But to Israel he saith,

"All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people!" (Isaiah 65:2)

So, there may be generalizations to future generations, but notice how the song ended in verse 43!

By the way, are you talking about "Pentecost" the holiday, which marks the 50th day of the Counting of the Omer, also called "Shavuowt", or are you talking about "Pentecost" the man, as in J. Dwight Pentecost, the writer of Things To Come? I'll quit here for this post and take up Psalm 82 in another.